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Notable Battles of Medieval Hungarians

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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Notable Battles of Medieval Hungarians
    Posted: 11-Aug-2006 at 02:24
Originally posted by Temujin

but the Mongols didn't withdraw. after Mohi they continued their advance on Vienna, headed south into the Balkans, ravaging everythign in their way. that doesn't sound like a defeated army. and really, the gedais death argument is 100% water-proof. gedai ordered the participation of all oldest sons of his brothers to participate in the western campaign, and it is necessary that all members of the golden family attend the election of the new khan at the kuriltai. it would me unimaginable if all oldest grandsons of Temujin would not attend to it.
1. They did not continued their andvance on Vienna. The Mongols systematically destroyed Eastern Hungary, but in the west they only pursued king Bla. There was a minor reconassaince force that approached Vienna, but this was far from an invasion. In my opinion the Mongols did not care Vienna, this was an anti-Hungarian campaign, their main purpose was the capturing the royal family. Soon after they failed, they retreated.
2. They were not defeated. They have serious casulties in the battle, but the Hungarian army collapsed. After that there was no other army in their way. There were only smaller forces trying to prevent them crossing the Danube, there were small garrisons, but nothing more.
3. gdei's death
- It is dubious that the news of his death arrived Hungary so quickly.
- The elecetion of the new Great Khan was much later only in 1246.
- Batu did not take part on the election anmd presumably he did not have ambitions to be the supreme ruler.
 
I did not say that it is impossible that the death of the great khan had a role in the withdrawal, but I think its significance is farly overestimated. As far as I know latest reconstructions of historians agreed me. (More exactly I am convinced by them.)
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  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2006 at 06:35

Of Course Batu did not have ambitions of Khan but he did want to secure his new power in Russia,thus he sent 3 tumen back to mongolia and took russia as his base.

He knew the leadership structure was fragile so was protecting his own interests.

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2006 at 14:40
Ok, so what in your opinion were the reasons for the Mongol withdrawal then?
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  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2006 at 18:33
Ogodeis Death...Smile the reason for sending Tumen back to mongolia is to support the succesor in case of rebellion.If he didnt then it would be like declaring War or Independence from the mongols.
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  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2006 at 18:35
You say they withdrawled because of Heavy Casualties,but this doesnt make sense as in all other campagns they had much more casualties because they actually lost battles...
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 14:20
Mongols often withdrew after victories, for example after the battle of Kalka river. not every Mongol campaign was a conquest campaign.
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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 07:50
Originally posted by BigL

You say they withdrawled because of Heavy Casualties,but this doesnt make sense as in all other campagns they had much more casualties because they actually lost battles...
I have never said that. But I find logical that this was one of the causes. (I have already posted my list 2 times, I won't post again.) I also doubt that the death of Ogodei had a role, but what is certain in my opinion that this was not the only or most important cause of the withdrawal.
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 15:00
i don't think Mongols ever planned to conquer all of eastern europe at all. the aim of the Bat Khan campaign was to conquer the Ukrainian Steppe and subdue the Kypchak. however some Kypchaks, including their Khan fled to Hungary, so Mongols had to pursue them and punish the Hungarians for aiding the Kypachak. this the Mongols achieved as well and after the job was done they simply retired to the steppe.
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  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 02:58

There is only one reason for the mongol Retreat .

The death of Ogodei !
 
And Temjin the mongols planned to conquer the whole World.


Edited by BigL - 22-Aug-2006 at 02:59
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 04:01
Originally posted by Temujin

i don't think Mongols ever planned to conquer all of eastern europe at all. the aim of the Bat Khan campaign was to conquer the Ukrainian Steppe and subdue the Kypchak. however some Kypchaks, including their Khan fled to Hungary, so Mongols had to pursue them and punish the Hungarians for aiding the Kypachak. this the Mongols achieved as well and after the job was done they simply retired to the steppe.
 
True, but Mongols actually did have plans to conquer the world. The skirmish to steppes of Qipchak were only a beginning to perhaps a major full-scale-conquest. IIRC Temujin did claim to be the son of Heaven, and thus had a right to conquer the whole world.
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  Quote Maljkovic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 13:25
If high casulties were the cause of the withdrawl, why was the withdrawl taken through Serbia and Bulgaria where intact armies awaited the Mongols? It makes no sense for a weakened army to take the hard road back home.
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  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 17:11
Well they took bigger losses of men in Actual defeats,but still attacked those places constantly Syria,Vietnam,India.
 
Mongols retreat from Europe supports other actions taken by mongols elsewhere.Its common for mongols to retreat from when a commander dies, Ghazan left syria when he could have conquered it.Left north china in the first invasion of jin.
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  Quote Tar Szernd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Sep-2006 at 04:07
Hi!
 
I think that this was the war aginst the mongols in 1241-42.
We lost cc. half or one million people, the battle of Muhi, and some others in Transilvania and in the Middle of Danube and Tisza, but the most part of the hungarian army survived(exept our heavy caval.), the mongols went away and after the stories of Caprini and Rubruck near by the mongol capital there were just two main cemetery: one for the nobles and one for the warriors died in Hungary.
Inb 1241 the austrian prince kidnapped the hole hungarian royal family, and let them just for lot of money, and occupied 4-5 west-hungarian comitats, but in 1243 the largest hungarian army till then went with the king in the battle against the austrians.
 
  TSZ
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  Quote Tar Szernd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Sep-2006 at 04:10

Hi!

 
Above was a reply for the question about the greatest war that hungarians ever had win(won?).
 
TSZ
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  Quote Tar Szernd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Sep-2006 at 04:44
Originally posted by Temujin

this is greatly interesting because the guys on the coat of arms look like Cossacks, but even more interesting is the fact that Osul sounds intriguingly similar to the Cossack rank equal to captain, Esaul.
 
Hi!
 
The original name in the cronicles of the leader of the warriors from the PECHENEG tribe of JULA was OSLU, not Osul. (I'm living in a little village called DOMOSLU, - Oslu's home:-). )
Althoug kipchacs (kuns) came in the 1050's to the Danube-delta, the Jula and Ertem tribes of the pechenegs still lived in  Moldva.
 
  TSZ
 
Hungarian cronists called kuns a lot of nomads: kavars, torks, uz-s.
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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2006 at 06:50

The long campaign (a.k.a. the winter campaign)

September 1443 February 1444


A) Background

By 1443 king Uladislaus managed to secure his power in most part of Hungary, although supporters of the child Ladislaus Posthumus still strongly held some territories in the kingdom.  The continuous attacks of the Ottoman Empire and the earlier successes of Hunyadi showed that the Ottoman question must be solved in the military way. A successful campaign against the Ottomans could also have increased the authority and legitimacy of Vladislaus solidifing his power.

Vladislaus Jagiellon, drawing by Jan Matejko:

A campaign was also urged by Đurađ Branković, the exiled Serbian despot, who lived in Hungary since 1439 when he lost his country to the Ottomans.

After the Council of Basel-Ferrara and the controversial union with the Eastern Curch Pope Eugenius IV sent Cardinal Giuliano Cesarini as his legate to Hungary in order to organize a crusade against the Ottomans. Cardinal Cesarini successfully mediate a cease fire between Uladislaus and the party of Ladislaus Posthumus.

Pope Eugenius IV by Jean Fouquet:

In March 1443 the royal council passed an order of collecting extraordinary war tax. (1 golden forint per a serf mansion). Hungary also got financial aid from the Pope and Venice helped the crusaders with 10 thousand pounds of gunpowder. Negotiations began for sending a PapalVenetian fleet to cut Ottoman supply from Asia Minor, but this plan failed because the Pope and Venice was not able to agree about who finance the fleet.

Finally Uladislaus raised and army of 25-30 000 men. Besides the Hungarian army there were Polish troops plus  Wallachian, Bosnian and Serbian (under Branković) auxiliary forces.  A contingent of Crusader insurgents, armed peasants were also raised. The army had 600 Hussite warwagons with Bohemian mercenaries as crew. The warwagons were commanded by Jan Čapek a former deputy of Jan Griska. The crusader force was significant, though the king had to leave behind forces to ensure the peaceful behaviour of Ladislaus Posthumus supporters.

The aim of the  of the crusade was to shake Ottoman power on the Balkans and if it is possible the capture of its capital Adrianople (modern Edirne, hung. Drinpoly). The moment was favourable. Sultan Murad II  fought with the elite forces in Asia Minor against Karamania and the Balkans was defended by only the Rumelian army garrisons.

B) Events of the Campaign

Hunyadis campaigns in the Balkans:

September 1443

The campaign was launched. The Crusaders form two armies: the vanguard (12 000 men) commanded by John Hunyadi and the rest of the army led by King Uladislaus personally.

Minor Ottoman reinforcement (soldiers from some of the Anatolian sandjaks) arrives from Anatolia. The Ottoman army in the Balkans numbers cca. 20 000 men led by Khasim the beylerbey of Rumelia.

The Crusader army is numericaly superior and Ottoman forces are scattered in the Balkans. Khasim avoids open field battle and slowly retreats. He hopes that coming winter and continuous harassment will stop or at least weaken the Christians. Crusaders capture Ni without any difficulty.

November 1443

Minor Ottoman forces are harrassing the Crusader vanguard. Hunyadi defeats them one by one.
- Isa beys cavalry
- Unidentified light cavalry troops
- Turkhan beys akincis

Presumably beylerbey Khasim tried to lure the vanguard far from the main army with these minor forces.  Suddenly he by-passes Hunyadi and attacks Uladislaus somewhere between Ni and Kruevac. His plan fails. Hunyadis scouts inform the voivod about the attack. Hunyadi orders forced march and manages to surprise Khasim. The beylerbey was defeated.

Murad II ends war with Karamania and hurries back to the Balkans with most of his forces, although he has to leave forces to ensure his back. He reaches Sofia. The long and fast march exhausted his forces and he does not dare to fight an open field battle. Instead of he fortify strategicaly important mountain passes.

Sultan Murad II:

The Crusaders also have difficulties. The November of 1443 was unusually cold, food supply is lessened and horseplague brokes out in the camp.

Murad II leaves Sorfia only a smaller garrison left behind. He goes to the east.

Crusaders capture Sofia.

December 1443

Trajans Gate (a mountain pass) to the south is so strongly fortified that the Crusaders chose the Zlatitsa Pass instead to reach Adrianople. But Murad have already fortified it and wait behind it with his army.

12th December 1443
The Crusaders storm the pass, but after some failed attempt Uladislaus ordered the withdrawal to Hungary.

The Crusaders are harrassed by Ottoman marauders and the Sultan orders the Garand Vizier, Khalil pasha to pursue the christians. [NOTE: Other sources mentions Khasim pasha.]

24th December 1443
Khalil pasha cathes the Crusaders up at Melstitsa. The fight remains undecided.

Hunyadi sets a trap at the Kunovitsa Pass. The army of Khalil pasha attacks the rearguard led by the despot. Branković slowly withdraw and lures the Grand Vizier in front of the full crusader army in battle order. The unexpected charge of heavy cavalry crushes the Ottoman army. Even the Ottoman camp was captured.

After this victory the Crusaders can withdraw unmolested.

13rd January 1444

The Crusader army reaches Kruevac. The despot tries to convince the king to spent the winter in Serbia, but this cant be carried out: food supply run out, many horses died by plague and the king ran out of money and unable to pay the mercenaries anymore. The army returns to Hungary

February 1444

The king triumphantly enters Buda. A great praise mass was held in the Virgin Mary Church where the coat of arms of all of those lords who took part in the crused was hung. (More precisely it is the Nagyboldogasszony Church modern Matthias Church-, but I am unable to translate it accurately.)

During the campaign the crusaders captured many important persons like the bey of Vidin, Plovdiv, Sofia, Sihabeddin former beylerbey, even the brother in law of the sultan. They also won many Ottoman banners etc.

C) Aftermath Significance

The long campaign was not a decisive one. The Crusaders reconquered no lands or castles. They did not fight with the main Ottoman army an open field battle. Though it was a significant victory. Hungary was on the defensive till the times of Sigismund. But now an army deeply penetrated Ottoman territory defeated the Turks six times and returned with the booty without any serious defeat. The expulsion of the Ottomans from Europe again seemed a possibility and Hunyadis reputation reached the skies.

Hunyadi in the Thurczy Chronicle:

Cardinal Cesarini urged a new campaign which will crush Ottoman once and for all and only after some week of rest arrangements were made for a new crusade.
But not just the Hungarians beleived that this was an important victory. Murad II realized that Hungary with its allies a dangereous threat. The Ottoman Empire cant accept a two front war with the crusaders and with Karamania. He needed time, he wanted to abdict and leave the throne to his son.

Sultan Murad II practicing archery:

The Sultan asked Branković (his father in law) to mediate a peace with Hungary. He offered to restore the Serbian State (under the despot)  to pay Hungary a tribute of 100 000 gold coins and to help Hungary with an army of 30 000 men if needed. His offer was taken into consideration...

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2006 at 09:45
Frends,
This year is the 550th Anniversary of Siege of Belgrad in 1456  by Turkish Sultan Mehmet the II and the conqueror of Costantinapolis. He could not able to take Belgrade which was an Hungarian fort. A Turkish historian and poet called Hoca Sadettin Efendi wrote a great history book about Ottomans. I translate his poem with my poor English:
 
The Belgrad Campaign of Sultan Mehmet Han in Spring 1456.
"He prepared all his soldiers for the war
He went on to conquer Belgrad.
All heads full of inordinate desire, All heards hatred
The eye bows of the braves sew coarsely
As if the fate collected all the stone balls of the artiallry
And named a new planed in the universe
The blood made waterfalls
The blood made every day new twilight
As the balls hit the towers of the walls one after one
All of them leveled to the earth
Janyo the unwanted Satan come with countless soldiers
Come to support Belgrad
The ships came along the Danube too.
Janko the cursed and his army stood againts our soldiers
many of them entered into Belgrad.
The ships fought of the Danube
Many of the Ghazi fall down
The ugly cryies of the bugles and the drums
Filled all east and west.
As the swords crushed
Their noise entered rapid through the portal of fate.
Sava and Danube became red rivers out of blood.
All green fields turned into red tulp fields.
Sultan of the Rome watched this bloodshed
He understand quicly that his soldiers were fed of war
He was unpleasand for the behaviour of his soldiers
He wanted to make an attack on the enemy on his horse
His bey's beside begged not for an attack.
They hold the reins of his horse
They said " O Our Shah you are a light, Don't make an attampt like a fly you burn
It is the fate of flies that burn in a fire
The greatness of Sultan is equal to mountains
If the mountains walk it is the tumult
Please let know thousand of us are ready to die
But if a stone injures your foot
But if a hair of your body fall dawn
We would ruin whole the world
We don't let you alone againts the enemy
Let us came with you.
Let the whole world tremble with our fight.
Let the swors yield to you.
The Beys stood with the Sultan on the field of loftiness."
 
Many years later his Grand son Sultan Sleyman the Law giver or as the EU's say magnificent took Belgrad.
 

The Conquer of Belgrad by Sultan Sleyman Han
"As Sultan Sleyman Han Ghazi became ruler
He prayed Allah
and walked againts this strong fortress on the head of his army.
He his clean hearth was turned only to the lord of Universe
Allah realized his pray.
Allah gave him the key of the Fortress
Allah gave him the beautiful pearl of the enemy
He revanged his grandfather.
I wish all deeds of the Shah may realize
May the enemy be blind."

We lost "pearl of the Enemy" Belgrad after Balkan Wars. May all the dead both Hungarians, Serbs and Turks rest in light. There is eternal peace among us.

I mote it be!
 
in a Turkish forum we discussed this event in English:
 
source: Original poems are in Turkish from my book " Macarlar ve Tuna Hakkinda Yazılmıs Siirler, 1300-2000)" (Poems Written by Turks about Hungarians during 1300-2000)


Edited by Tosun Saral - 24-Sep-2006 at 10:03
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  Quote rosior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2006 at 12:11
Originally posted by Tosun Saral

The first heavenly religion declared by Moses (Jews) forbid to worship to pictures, statues, sky objects, stones and animals. But Christians -please forgive me for my posting- worship  by kneeling to the Mutter Maria or Jesus Christus pictures or ikonas. Christians knee infront of Jesus Christus's crucified staue. This is the main difference between Christianity and Jews and Islam. Islam also vorbids to worship to pictures, stones, statues like Jews. 
 
You should not mistaken the veneration (proskenesin) of ikons with their adoration (latreian). Orthodox and Catholic Christians do not worship the ikons, but God.
 
It is interesting to note that synagogues in the early centuries AD were also decorated with mural paintings of biblical scenes.
 
Back on topic, justa little addition. Raider mentioned a battle in November 1443. C. Muresan gives the date as 23 and the Ottoman casulaties at around 2,000 dead and 4,000 prisoners.
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  Quote Hun Birodalom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Oct-2006 at 09:38
Good job with this dicussion Raider, I applause you.Clap
I am also Hungarian (in Canada) and I am also interested in my nation's history.
I think the most impotrtant result of Hunyadi's victories over the Turks is the successfull defending of the Christian world. It was the 2nd time Hungary saved Christianity: the Mongol Invasion. Although the Mongols were not specificly trying to end christianity, but if they had been successfull in occupying Europe, Christianity would most likely had been assimilated to the Mongol religion.
 
Another good topic (I think), would be the relation between Magyars and Huns. I'll be back to post some info on that.
 
Mighty Magyars conquered the Carpathians!


Edited by Hun Birodalom - 14-Oct-2006 at 19:50
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  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 02:05
Anyone got details of the war of the Avars and Lombards versus the Gepids in 567? That was the beginning of the Avar Khaganate was it not? And also their main entry into the region.
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