Notable Battles of Medieval Hungarians

double post

Edited by Chilbudios - 06-Jul-2006 at 05:38

As far as I know the biographies written by Camil Muresanu and Elem�r M�lyusz are considered authority about Hunyadi's life. Later P�l Engel wrote an essay about his early career.

Originally posted by vonminx Originally posted by antisocrates "I have heard, from Hungarians only, repeatedly that the Mongols suffered so much losses that they hesitated to continue.  I'm very skeptical about this claim, because no major historian that I know have substantiated this, nor have my Chinese acquaintances unearthed anything close to this in Mongol-Chinese primary sources."   You are certianly right to be skeptical the mongols did not retreat due to losses. Yes the losses were high but the reaon they withdrew was becuase the khagan mongke had suddenly died, some say he was poisoned, and thus the army had to return home.                 The mongols were very close to victory, they could have continued on into europe but they had to return and choose thier next leader. Meanwhile political rivalries and infighting amongst various nobles reulted in a irreprable split and as a result various khanates were established and they never quite worked toghether. Thus the golden age of thier empeire was over.

It was Ogodei who died. Personally I am convinced that not his death was the cause of the withdrawal, might be one of them, but not a decisive cause.

Originally posted by antisocrates Originally posted by Raider Originally posted by vonminx Originally posted by antisocrates "I have heard, from Hungarians only, repeatedly that the Mongols suffered so much losses that they hesitated to continue.  I'm very skeptical about this claim, because no major historian that I know have substantiated this, nor have my Chinese acquaintances unearthed anything close to this in Mongol-Chinese primary sources."   You are certianly right to be skeptical the mongols did not retreat due to losses. Yes the losses were high but the reaon they withdrew was becuase the khagan mongke had suddenly died, some say he was poisoned, and thus the army had to return home.                 The mongols were very close to victory, they could have continued on into europe but they had to return and choose thier next leader. Meanwhile political rivalries and infighting amongst various nobles reulted in a irreprable split and as a result various khanates were established and they never quite worked toghether. Thus the golden age of thier empeire was over. It was Ogodei who died. Personally I am convinced that not his death was the cause of the withdrawal, might be one of them, but not a decisive cause.   If it were a factor at all, I'd say it's so low as to be trivial.   I've seen any Hungarians "proud" of this "feat", but really, in the overall scheme of things, it was nothing.  Battlefield losses meant very little to the Mongols during this period, who could always replenish their ranks with auxillaries.  Nor were heavy casualties all that uncommon.  I'm sure those who're Chinese-literate can tell you, but 30%, even 40-50% casualty rate was acceptable and not all that uncommon in the Chinese campaigns.   Really, I think Kagan is a great military historian, as are some others whose names I can't recall that this moment, but they should read some Chinese historiagraphy on the subject before rashly pronouncing their verdict on the Mongols based on what were only a reconnaissance mission and a small-scale probing mission.  They'd be surprised just how resourceful and logistically advanced the Mongols were, or how ferocious, tenacious and technologically ingenious the Chinese were in their doomed defence.

Edited by Raider - 07-Jul-2006 at 02:31

Edited by Raider - 26-Jul-2006 at 03:29

How come Hungary was able to repel so easily such a steppe attack while earlier avar magyar hun etc not?

The Hungarians were similar in culture and ethnicity to Cumans?why would they want to kill them

I thought there may be an attempt to recruit them as cavalrymen.

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but the Mongols didn't withdraw. after Mohi they continued their advance on Vienna, headed south into the Balkans, ravaging everythign in their way. that doesn't sound like a defeated army. and really, the �gedais death argument is 100% water-proof. �gedai ordered the participation of all oldest sons of his brothers to participate in the western campaign, and it is necessary that all members of the golden family attend the election of the new khan at the kuriltai. it would me unimaginable if all oldest grandsons of Temujin would not attend to it.