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Topic ClosedWho Were the Trojans?

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Who Were the Trojans?
    Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 09:02
Originally posted by kotumeyil

I'm not disputing his Greekness but he was born in Smyrna, and no doubt he visited Troia. He knew how Anatolian people lived, how the land influenced their life-style, etc. and had sympathy to them more than to those of the Greeks of mainland Greece. That's my humble opinion of course...


Actually his exact place of birth is still strongly debated, but I would like to know how you came to the conclusion that he was more 'sympathetic' towards Anatolians that to other Hellinic 'tribes' of the mainland, since this is actually the first time I've heard anything similar..
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 09:22

I don't know why you brought about the issue of Turks?

As for the "sympathy" I read that in the preface of Iliad. Of course, as a Greek he praised the heroic character of the Danaos but his wailing for Hector and the Troia is the most affecting part of Iliad. This makes me to think in such a way.

On the other hand, why would Trojans ally with other Anatolian peoples against their own kind?



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 09:48

You know in Ancient Greece there were many examples of coalition between some greek tribes against other greeks without thinking about fighting their own kind.

While you're reading the Iliad sometimes you may get confused for some persons whether they belong to the greek side or the trojan. That's because Trojans did have a lot in common with Greeks (names, tradition, religion, language). Nevertheless I don't say that Trojans were pure Greeks (there is no way to find it out) but they may have had a strong connection with Greeks, cultural and maybe genetic.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 10:52
Well there was some reference to 'Turk' genetics, but maybe I got it wrong and went off topic..

I really don't think that Homer shows sympathy for one over the other, actually, I think that Hector, while undoubtably one of the central characters in the whole plot, is praised in order to appear as a worthy apponent to Achilles, who was a demigod and allegedly superior to all humans. But I really don't see him giving more emphasis to the death of Hector in comparison to Patroklos..

As for the alliance, the very same question could apply to those that 'sided' with the Persians, or why was there a Athens-Sparta war..etc.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 13:51

Originally posted by philiptheuniter

I am interested to know about the Trojans. Who were they? Were they a Greek city-state in Asia Minor? Another group? What was their language? History? Are their descedents a group today? Someone here suggested they fled and are now Swedes. This sounds very far fetched (but who knows for sure? Highly doubtful though). Just curious really. A peice of history that everyone has heard of, but few know anything about.

You can find one of the possible theories linking Trojans with Luwians in my post here.

  http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=150& KW=perseas&PN=0&TPN=2

Now, as far with possible links they had with Greeks lets have a look at the royal Trojan's family list of names.

Priam - not a greek name. The only link this name could have with being greek is if we take its Aeolic form which would sound as Perramos.

Laomedon - He was Priam's father name and its surely a greek name.

Hecabe - not a Greek name.

Hector - a greek name, having the same form as Nestor.

Paris -  not a greek name. But Paris had also a second name, Alexandros which is a greek name.

Helenos - greek name

Deiphobos - greek name

Polydoros - greek name...Polydoros was the name also of a son of Cadmos.

Politis - greek name

Laodice - greek name...also it was the name of Niobe's mother in greek mythology.

Kassandra - greek name

Polyxena - greek name

Antiphos - greek name...also this name was shared by a greek commander who participated in Trojan war and was killed later by the cyclops Polyphemus.

now from all these we can have the following final two options..

i) They had greek names,

ii) Their names were changed by bards from foreign to greek.



Edited by Perseas
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 06:56
According to mythology,after the destruction of Troy,Helenos and Cassandra and some other Trojans were carried captives to Epirus by king Neoptolemos of the Molossi.There they founded a city,the new Ilion in Haonia(southern Albania).Interestingly, the Haones who were a greek epirot tribe were considered  to be of pure pelasgian origin.
I think Paris can be a greek name.There are many ancient greek names ending in -aris like Falaris for example.
Can the name Priamos be a title rather than a name?Could it be linked with the roman word primus?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 10:03

now from all these we can have the following final two options..

i) They had greek names,

ii) Their names were changed by bards from foreign to greek.


Greeks adopted their names?

That seems likely in the case of Alexandros, which is a historical name of a ruler of Wilusa (Troy), according to Hittite records.

Notice that the Illiad was so important on Greek culture that surely many people took names from it.

Also, some names could come from a common Aegean background.

I don't think the answer is so simple. What makes a name "Greek" in your list, Perseas?


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 10:55

the Greeknes of the names is derived by their linguistic root and by their meaning. Examples:

Laomedon -  From the Greek words "Laos" and "Medon". This cannot be an adoption or a transliteration, because it is a fundamentally Greek name

Hector - a greek root 

Alexandros -  another composite word: Alexo + andras. Both Greek roots, forming a Greek name with the meaning "defender of men".

Helenos -greek root (probably related to the word Helen (Greek) from the times the Greeks were not called Hellenes but Danaoi.

Deiphobos - greek composite name: By the prefix "Dei" (bi- twol-) and the word phobos (fear).

Polydoros - composite Greek: Poly and doro

Politis - greek root (Polis)

Laodice - greek composite name (Laos + Dike)

Kassandra - this one is disputed as the linguistic root is concerned, although it is adopted as a Greek name even from the Homeric times, especially in northern Greece.

Polyxena - composite name: Poly + Xene

...and so on.

So, names like the above could not (with the exeption of Kassandra) have been "adopted" by the Greeks, because they are fundamentally Greek. I still insist on a common Aegean culture (and maybe even ethnical background, at least partly) of the two people.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 11:17

Originally posted by RomiosArktos

According to mythology,after the destruction of Troy,Helenos and Cassandra and some other Trojans were carried captives to Epirus by king Neoptolemos of the Molossi.There they founded a city,the new Ilion in Haonia(southern Albania).Interestingly, the Haones who were a greek epirot tribe were considered  to be of pure pelasgian origin.
I think Paris can be a greek name.There are many ancient greek names ending in -aris like Falaris for example.
Can the name Priamos be a title rather than a name?Could it be linked with the roman word primus?

Cassandra was taken as slave from Agamemnon. I think you mean Andromache.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 11:29
Originally posted by Maju


now from all these we can have the following final two options..

i) They had greek names,

ii) Their names were changed by bards from foreign to greek.


Greeks adopted their names?

That seems likely in the case of Alexandros, which is a historical name of a ruler of Wilusa (Troy), according to Hittite records.

Notice that the Illiad was so important on Greek culture that surely many people took names from it.

Also, some names could come from a common Aegean background.

I don't think the answer is so simple. What makes a name "Greek" in your list, Perseas?

From the point that they are mostly meaningful in greek language and their compositions.

For example Hektor is derived from (hektor) "holding fast", ultimately from (echo) meaning "to hold, to possess".

Same with (Kassandra), which possibly meant "shining upon man", derived from (kekasmai) "to shine" and '' (aner) "man" genitive (andros).

Its known Greeks had a tedency to regularize foreign names. If we take as example the Achaemenids royal names we have...

- The name Artaxerxes is the regularization of the original Persian name Artakhshathra.

- The name Xerxes is the regularization of the original Persian name Khshayarsha

But on the contrary to the above Trojan royal names, neither of these Persian names have any meaning in Greek language.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 16:05
Originally posted by Perseas

Cassandra was taken as slave from Agamemnon. I think you mean Andromache.


You are right,Perseas
I took Andromache for Cassandra.

As far as the names are concerned,I agree  that all the ancient greek names that were given from  father to  son meant someting in the Greek language .This is how you can tell if a name is a greek name or not.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 16:34

Something that dorian mentioned: Homer does praise Hector,but not because of his origin or due to the fact that he is "Anatolian".Homer was an epic poet,which means that he praises the virtuus,the "aristoi".Hector was no doubt the greatest troyan warrior,so the poet could not leave him out of the story.

As for the coming of the Troyans,they couldn't be Greek the way that Spatans,Athenians or the ionic cities of .. Ionia are. The first greek migration is dated in around 1100 B.C., with the coming of the Dorians. The prosperous city of Troy and the war as well happened before the greek tribes massively moved to minor Asia. Perhaps they were a pre-hellenic branch..

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2006 at 11:36
Actually the first 'migration' is related to the myth of Jason and the Argonauts to Georgia, known to the ancients as Kolchis, depicted in Linear B' tablets as ko-ki-da. We know of several Mycenean finds, mainly swords, dated to 1500BC
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2006 at 23:29
who were the trojans?
This is an area of great interest for me, as well as the Hittites, Minoan Crete, Mycenae, the Sea peoples, and the Philistines

a couple of sites to peruse about the trojans that has some good reading,.

http://www.thetroyguide.com/id7.html
claims the Trojans spoke an Indo-European language which was widely spoken in different part of Anatolia, called Luvian.

http://www.lhhpaleo.religionstatistics.net/LHH%20anadolun. html
mentions that the Leleges and the Cilicians were so closely related to the Trojans

and also "
The Scamander River had as son Teucer, his daughter, Batia married Dardanus [the Dardanians were an Illyrian tribe], which came from

Samothrace and founded Troy. The grandson of Dardanus was Tros, which had as son Ilus II (which re-founded Troy and gave his own
name to the city). Ilus' son was Laomedon, and Laomedon's son was Priam. The father and the son of this king, Paris, will be defeated by
the Greeks after raping Hellen (action that humiliated the Greeks and menaced since he would have inherited Hellen's kingdom)."

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2006 at 21:57
There's one more thing that I think needs to be pointed out along the lines of the ancient Greeks' custom of "Hellenizing" foreign names, and that is the fact that they superimposed their gods and goddesses over those worshipped by the outsiders they encountered.  For instance, the Phoenician god Baal was regarded in the time of the conquest by Alexander the Great as being Heracles, while ancient text specifically mention temples to Zeus and Demeter in Assyria which would've been for Marduk and Ishtar.  Indeed, they even considered the Temple at Jerusalem to be dedicated to Zeus and even wanted to convert it to such a purpose later on, much to the alarm of the Israelites.

Therefore, we have one possible reason for Homer referring to the people of Troy as worshipping the same gods as the Greeks of Mycenae and Argos...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2006 at 23:06
Originally posted by Alkiviades

the Greeknes of the names is derived by their linguistic root and by their meaning. Examples:

Laomedon -  From the Greek words "Laos" and "Medon". This cannot be an adoption or a transliteration, because it is a fundamentally Greek name

Hector - a greek root 

Alexandros -  another composite word: Alexo + andras. Both Greek roots, forming a Greek name with the meaning "defender of men".

Helenos -greek root (probably related to the word Helen (Greek) from the times the Greeks were not called Hellenes but Danaoi.

Deiphobos - greek composite name: By the prefix "Dei" (bi- twol-) and the word phobos (fear).

Polydoros - composite Greek: Poly and doro

Politis - greek root (Polis)

Laodice - greek composite name (Laos + Dike)

Kassandra - this one is disputed as the linguistic root is concerned, although it is adopted as a Greek name even from the Homeric times, especially in northern Greece.

Polyxena - composite name: Poly + Xene

...and so on.

So, names like the above could not (with the exeption of Kassandra) have been "adopted" by the Greeks, because they are fundamentally Greek. I still insist on a common Aegean culture (and maybe even ethnical background, at least partly) of the two people.



That's interesting. Specially because the name Alexandros (refering to a Wilusan king) appears in Hittite records, so it could not be mere "Hellenization" of foreign characters.

Btw, what does Hektor mean in Greek? I'm particularly iterested because my Italian family claimed ascendancy from that Trojan hero (of course one of those heraldic nonsenses... )

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2006 at 04:20

It is already mentioned in one of the above posts.

Hektor is derived from (hektor) "holding fast", ultimately from "" (echo) meaning "to hold, to possess".

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2006 at 13:32

The same question was asked of Victor Hanson.  He replied that the Trojans were a Hittite/Semetic peoples and seperate and distinct from Greeks.  But that they shared cultural influences.  His view is somewhat contreversial.

"From archaeological and philological evidence Trojans were probably some sort of early Semitic people and their language akin to Hittite."



Edited by Lurker
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 23:08

I think it's a shame we try to fit all these ancient groups into our neat little categories. It leads to alot of misconceptions, like people envisioning unitary polities that never existed. Alot of groups in the ancient world lay in fringe areas and were hybrid cultures unto themselves, comprising crossover areas from one culture to the next. The Trojans were likely one of these groups, bearing ties both to the Greeks and the Hittites. The Greeks may have considered them civilized and thus would write of them in a different manner than they would of peoples they considered barbaric, just as they wrote differently about the Egyptians than they did about the Persians. As far as naming Trojan deities as Greek deities, well, they did this all the time - they even tried to identify the Hebrew god as Zeus.

The Trojans may not have even been an identifiable, unitary culture of any kind. Homer says that they spoke many languages, and had no common language. Troy may just have been a site that grew due to its trade importance, and different mercantile interests - rather than a unitary cultural or tribal/clan influence - may have been the factor behind its growth. How can we rule out this possibility? I think sometimes in searching for the origins of a people in a particular site, we may be misleading ourselves by thinking there is going to be a single answer.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 09:36
That idea of Trojans being a multicural society sounds cool but a little too far fetched, in my opinion, for the typical clanic organization we always find in pre-modern societies. In any case, they would have an "oficial language" whch would be used when joining the city assembly or council... a society needs some central elements like these, no matter how flexible or cosmopolitan they were. 

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