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Can armenians reclaim eastern anatolia??

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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Can armenians reclaim eastern anatolia??
    Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 17:57

So the request is not just a dream and definitely not exclusively Armenian either.

Stalin was using Armenia when making that request. It is interesting how you reject the Soviet agreement when they give the land to Turkey, but acccept it when they want land. Hipocracy.

there was no English, French, or US presence in the Ottoman Empire, to use the Armenians as a fifth column...

English and French ran Ottoman economy, they were practically everywhere. So were the Germans. Russians had special status as protectors of the Orthodox peoples. US was infiltrating, especially with missionaries targetting Armenians. They forced the Ottomans to accept to give Armenians 50% of the local councils where they formed 25% of the population.

As I have stated before, the lands can not come back to Armenia unless the people living there wanted to join Armenia. Most Armenians realize that if they got the land by force, it would be very bad for Armenia in general. But unfortunetly those Armenians dont have a voice, it is the idiot Dashnaks who press for the treaty of Sevres...but still, all Armenians "hope" that the lands, some day will be ours again. That kind of hoping is a danger when you actually believe that you will get the lands back and you are taking actions to achieve it.

You are sensible. I hope most Armenians agree with you.

Since when is being untied fascist mentality? Being united for the fight for recognition of the Genocide is not fascistic..

Since the very beginning. Fascisti comes from the Roman story about while one stick easily breaks, a group of sticks together won't break. The symbol of Italian fascists is an ax, surrounded by a bundle of sticks. Of course, not everyone who uses this terminology is a fascist, but all fascists talk about 'being united against the others, we should have the smae goals, think alike, etc.'

do you see anywhere on that paragraph that Azeri media treats Armenia positively?????

He quite obviously claims about Armenia being presented in a positive light ('want nothing but peace and to forgive', etc).

Actually, I was writing a reply to your original post, I accidentaly clicked backspace, it went to the previous page, so my reply was deleted, I came back and your post was changed...I did not memorize your post...usually the reason people edit, is that some phrase look really stupid...so they take it out (at least thats what I do...0

You shouldn't blame someone of changing what they have written on assumptions like 'most people do that'. You should at least have an idea what is missing or added or changed, if not actual proof, before making such accusations. Since I have just changed the quote tag, I interpreted that behaviour as deliberate lying.

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  Quote Qajar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 18:09

I can't understand some turks ( very few actually) who apologised for armenians victims??????((((((((

It was a war and not only armenians were killed or died. There were hundread of thousands turks, kurds,russians, greeks,azeries,georgians and others....

Why armnenians victims should have any special treatment??????

It was a war and that's it. There were war victims. Millions of victims of different nationalities.

If someone wants to apologise, so it should be for everyone and not only armenians. They don't have any special rights.

Be aware: accepting "genoside" it means, that next morning Armenia will claim "their" land in Turkey and relatives of war victims will claim billion and billion of dollars from Turkey + properties, land,churchs and everything.

Why Turkey should accept somthing which was never happened?????..Why Turkey should destroy herself????..What's the point???

It is paranoya within armenian diaspora about "genoside" and revanj over Turkey.

it is shame on some turks who apologised for something which never happened, only because they want's receive some moral grants from europeans and get into eu.

Shah Ismail I Sefevid - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasti of Iran.

Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasty in Iran.
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  Quote Digenis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 18:18
Originally posted by Qajar

It was a war and that's it.



Since when war means taking 1,500,000 people man-women and children from their homeland,bringing them to the desert and eliminating them ?

Some more "wars" like that and no human alive on Earth!
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  Quote kotumeyil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 19:08
Originally posted by Qajar

it is shame on some turks who apologised for something which never happened, only because they want's receive some moral grants from europeans and get into eu.

Let me tell you, dear Qajar. We are debating on a history forum. This isn't a place for justifying the past wrong deeds of our governments.

Armenians wanted to be independent from the Ottoman Empire and they fought for it. It was the natural right of the Ottoman Empire to defend itself (just like every state). The Young Turk government should have punished only the betrayer bandits but it punished innocent Armenians as well. It also brought catastrophy to Turks by entering the WWI. The deeds of Young Turk government are unacceptable. I'm sorry for those who were victimized by those false policies. They destructed the Empire and victimized both muslim and non-muslim citizens. Being personally sorry for all harmed innocent peoples isn't a shame and I don't give a f**k to those "moral grants" by the Europeans.

However, at the political level, the claims of Armenians on Eastern Anatolia are unacceptable and cause war, as I stated above. In fact the unleashed nationalisms make peoples kill each other. I support friendly settlement of  such international problems through collaboration. On the other hand, Armenians should stop dreaming about taking Turkish lands and collaborate for settling the abnormal relations between themselves, Turks and Azeris. They should give up building their national identity and hatred over victim psychology and work for the well-being of poor Armenians in Armenia. On the other hand, if they want to get Eastern Anatolia they have to fight and everybody here admits that they will face a new destruction if they prefer this way.

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  Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 19:47
"He quite obviously claims about Armenia being presented in a positive light ('want nothing but peace and to forgive', etc)."

no, I think u misunderstood him. He said that Turks should ask for forgiveness, and Armenians should forgive and forget. It has nothing to do with Azeri media and the Republic of Armenia.

"Since the very beginning. Fascisti comes from the Roman story about while one stick easily breaks, a group of sticks together won't break. The symbol of Italian fascists is an ax, surrounded by a bundle of sticks. Of course, not everyone who uses this terminology is a fascist, but all fascists talk about 'being united against the others, we should have the smae goals, think alike, etc.'

Does this mean that everything done in Unison is fascistic. If your people support your country they are Fascists?
When you said Fascistic, you were using its negative connotation, as if he is a supporter of Mussolini or something.

can't understand some turks ( very few actually) who apologised for armenians victims??????((((((((

you should ask them, they could explain it to you (Beylerbeyi) for example



Edited by mamikon
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  Quote Artaxiad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 20:47
Stalin was using Armenia when making that request. It is interesting how you reject the Soviet agreement when they give the land to Turkey, but acccept it when they want land. Hipocracy.


None of the Soviet leaders did anything beneficial for Armenians. Nakhichevan and Artsakh (Karabagh) were given to Azerbaijan, and Javakhk was given to Georgia.

English and French ran Ottoman economy, they were practically everywhere. So were the Germans. Russians had special status as protectors of the Orthodox peoples. US was infiltrating, especially with missionaries targetting Armenians. They forced the Ottomans to accept to give Armenians 50% of the local councils where they formed 25% of the population.

In the end, those missionaries and diplomats - simple figures - couldn't do anything for the Armenians. They went after their own interests.

Since the very beginning. Fascisti comes from the Roman story about while one stick easily breaks, a group of sticks together won't break. The symbol of Italian fascists is an ax, surrounded by a bundle of sticks. Of course, not everyone who uses this terminology is a fascist, but all fascists talk about 'being united against the others, we should have the smae goals, think alike, etc.'

I don't think there's anything fascist about having a common goal. What is so fascist about pushing for the acnowledgement of the Armenian genocide and making Turkey suffer the consequences?

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  Quote Artaxiad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 21:03
Originally posted by Qajar

I can't understand some turks ( very few actually) who apologised for armenians victims??????((((((((

It was a war and not only armenians were killed or died. There were hundread of thousands turks, kurds,russians, greeks,azeries,georgians and others....

Why armnenians victims should have any special treatment??????

It was a war and that's it. There were war victims. Millions of victims of different nationalities.

If someone wants to apologise, so it should be for everyone and not only armenians. They don't have any special rights.

Be aware: accepting "genoside" it means, that next morning Armenia will claim "their" land in Turkey and relatives of war victims will claim billion and billion of dollars from Turkey + properties, land,churchs and everything.

Why Turkey should accept somthing which was never happened?????..Why Turkey should destroy herself????..What's the point???

It is paranoya within armenian diaspora about "genoside" and revanj over Turkey.

it is shame on some turks who apologised for something which never happened, only because they want's receive some moral grants from europeans and get into eu.



If you're going to have this attitude about the Armenian genocide, don't expect us to listen to your allegations of genocide in Khojali.
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2006 at 13:24

Originally posted by mamikon

I think most of living armenians dont deserve much sympaty

what the hell?????

 

Sorry my friend, but I can say this also for turks or greeks too.

But well, after all I am turk, so I prefer not to say this for turks.

By the way, dont take it personal. Infact I like much AE forumer armenians.

 

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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2006 at 20:47

you should ask them, they could explain it to you (Beylerbeyi) for example

Kotumeyil already explained everything.

Sorry my friend, but I can say this also for turks or greeks too.

But well, after all I am turk, so I prefer not to say this for turks.

I think it should be the other way around. We all have problems, and they can't be solved by blaming others and ignoring your own. Everyone should solve their own problem. Our duty as Turkish citizens is to hold our government accountable. It is not our duty to hold the Armenian/Russian/French government accountable. 

Be aware: accepting "genoside" it means, that next morning Armenia will claim "their" land in Turkey and relatives of war victims will claim billion and billion of dollars from Turkey + properties, land,churchs and everything.

Why Turkey should accept somthing which was never happened?????..Why Turkey should destroy herself????..What's the point???

The nationalists always brag how powerful their country is, but when it comes to open debate about what happened in the past or admitting mistakes by the government, they start suddenly to claim that the country will be destroyed the next day. Where is your faith in your nation? Why do we fear tiny Armenia? Or even the imperialists? How can they accomplish today what they couldn't in 1920, the heyday of imperialism? 

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  Quote armenica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 04:58

Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

[The nationalists always brag how powerful their country is, but when it comes to open debate about what happened in the past or admitting mistakes by the government, they start suddenly to claim that the country will be destroyed the next day. Where is your faith in your nation? Why do we fear tiny Armenia? Or even the imperialists? How can they accomplish today what they couldn't in 1920, the heyday of imperialism? 

Fear "tiny Armenia"?!? You're something, you know? If the political winds blow the right way much will happen. A "Tiny Armenia" is a giant compared to the non-existing "Israel" which mushroomed after over 2000 years of absense on the world map. So I wouldnt say that nothing is impossible.

The fact remains that Armenians not being the main population (or at least represented on those lands in case of a "self determination" process) on the Armenian lands in eastern Turkey is the direct result of the ethnic cleansing of the genocide during WWI. Just because political gains have ignored the annually claims of the Armenian nation year after year in 90 years it doesn't make it "history" or "absolete". It is still a very political matter, the very reason why Turkey refuses to normalize it's relations with Armenia. It is on the agenda of Turkey's EU negotiations and an obstacle for her membership if Turkey does enter the union with closed borders with Armenia. It's a highly politically active topic, not just historical.

Armenians would have very much liked to been given the opportunity to vote for which nation they would prefer belonging to. But Turkish government saw to that it wouldn't be possible now, wouldn't it?

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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 06:51

Fear "tiny Armenia"?!? You're something, you know? If the political winds blow the right way much will happen. A "Tiny Armenia" is a giant compared to the non-existing "Israel" which mushroomed after over 2000 years of absense on the world map. So I wouldnt say that nothing is impossible.

I was critisizing the Turkish nationalists. If you tell them Armenians can fight turkey successfully, they'll make fun of you, by saying this or similar things like 'My relatives in Trabzon have more weapons than the Armenian Republic'. But when it comes to debating with Armenia, they tell us if we do that the country will be destroyed overnight. So I ask, if armenia is that weak, why do we fear them?

On the other hand, I should admit that the nationalists have a point, Armenia is not that strong, and wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell if it attacked Turkey. But I would concede that if Turkey attacks, they may be able to defend themselves. And I still think that the main problem of the Armenian diaspora is that they try to follow the Zionist model. 'Imperialists gave the Jews land they wanted, so they can do the same for us'. It won't work, even if the imperialists wanted to do that. More than political winds are needed for that, and the Imperialists are not what they used to be.  

It is on the agenda of Turkey's EU negotiations and an obstacle for her membership if Turkey does enter the union with closed borders with Armenia.

This is not a requirement. The main obstacle to Turkish Armenian relations is Armenia's occupation of Azeri land (not only Karabag, but also the land in between). EU can't force Turkey to normalise relations unless this problem is solved.  

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  Quote armenica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 08:22
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

Fear "tiny Armenia"?!? You're something, you know? If the political winds blow the right way much will happen. A "Tiny Armenia" is a giant compared to the non-existing "Israel" which mushroomed after over 2000 years of absense on the world map. So I wouldnt say that nothing is impossible.

I was critisizing the Turkish nationalists. If you tell them Armenians can fight turkey successfully, they'll make fun of you, by saying this or similar things like 'My relatives in Trabzon have more weapons than the Armenian Republic'. But when it comes to debating with Armenia, they tell us if we do that the country will be destroyed overnight. So I ask, if armenia is that weak, why do we fear them?

On the other hand, I should admit that the nationalists have a point, Armenia is not that strong, and wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell if it attacked Turkey. But I would concede that if Turkey attacks, they may be able to defend themselves. And I still think that the main problem of the Armenian diaspora is that they try to follow the Zionist model. 'Imperialists gave the Jews land they wanted, so they can do the same for us'. It won't work, even if the imperialists wanted to do that. More than political winds are needed for that, and the Imperialists are not what they used to be.  

Who has ever said anything about going at war with Turkey over the Armenian lands?! We are talking about making claims on legal grounds resteing on the basis of the committed genocide and ethnic cleansing. This is the 21st century. There are other ways then flexing your muscles...

 

Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

It is on the agenda of Turkey's EU negotiations and an obstacle for her membership if Turkey does enter the union with closed borders with Armenia.

This is not a requirement. The main obstacle to Turkish Armenian relations is Armenia's occupation of Azeri land (not only Karabag, but also the land in between). EU can't force Turkey to normalise relations unless this problem is solved.  

Dragging in Azerbaijan into this is another lame excuse put forward by Turkey. Azerbaijan is a sovereign country, not the protg of Turkey (even though the idea is not far from the truth). Turkey has much graver problems of its own than looking after its baby Azerbaijan. EU can not force Turkey to recognise Cyprus or normalising its relations with Armenia. But they are far from naive for introducing yet another problem of the sort they got on their hands when they let in Cyprus before it was united and starting negotiating with a Turkey which does not recognise one of the members of the union.

Karabakh was never a part of independent Azerbaijan. Even before that it was only the "Autonomous Republic of Karabakh" under the jurisdiction of Azerbaijani SSR. Not a district nor a province, but an autonomous republic fully authorised to make its own decisions. And Karabakh did that in 1988, when they voted to separation from Azerbaijan and joining Armenia.

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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 15:47

I think it should be the other way around. We all have problems, and they can't be solved by blaming others and ignoring your own. Everyone should solve their own problem. Our duty as Turkish citizens is to hold our government accountable. It is not our duty to hold the Armenian/Russian/French government accountable.

I cant see what problem will be solved If we accept armenian genocide?

I mean turkey problems, not armenian one. It is not my job to solve armenian problems or work for their wishes. I am not blaming anyone, I am sorry for murdered armenians, but this does not mean I will work for armenians interest.

 

 

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 17:38
It has been argued that the policies of the Soviet planners, just like the Ottomans, were deliberate and were designed to prevent any separatism attempts by any republic. In drawing borders, they deliberately left large numbers of different ethnic groups in alien countries.

As a result, newly independent countries of the region faced many difficulties stemming from the arbitrary borders.

I believe that borders should be drawn along ethnic lines. Hence i believe the autonomous territory of Nagorno-Garabakh should be part of Armenia, for any kind of division between Armenia proper and Garabakh is artificial.

Now regarding the issue that has been raised, which is of course Eastern Anatolia. I find it rather amusing that this topic was brought by a turkish nationalist and it is evident why it was raised. My answer is that the Republic of Turkey should not worry about Armenia and her imperialist ambitions. Armenia possess no threat to Turkey.

You should rather be concerned with the phantom of Kurdistan that is evocating Turkey.





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  Quote armenica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 02:13
Originally posted by Mortaza

I think it should be the other way around. We all have problems, and they can't be solved by blaming others and ignoring your own. Everyone should solve their own problem. Our duty as Turkish citizens is to hold our government accountable. It is not our duty to hold the Armenian/Russian/French government accountable.

I cant see what problem will be solved If we accept armenian genocide?

I mean turkey problems, not armenian one. It is not my job to solve armenian problems or work for their wishes. I am not blaming anyone, I am sorry for murdered armenians, but this does not mean I will work for armenians interest.



Please... Do you really mean that you can't see the advantage of admitting that Turkey has committed such a crime in its past?! The world, and not least Turks themselves, would most definitely consider Turkey as an open society who is not affraid of admitting the wrongs in the past, but more important the wrong doing which originate from this denail in the present. Armenians are not allowed to point at a church (or what ever its left of it) in eastern Turkey without being involved in God knows how many questionings by the governmental officials. The same goes for photographing and video taping. Armenian climbing teams are not allowed climb Mt Ararat! Three Iranian (Persians, not Armenians) mountains climbers whose lastname ended with "ian" were denied permission to claimb Mt Ararat because the Turkish authority thought that they were Armenians!!!! This was less than a year ago. These are very simple and banal examples while the existing economical blockade and other political pressures are much much more serious.

Nevertheless, it means that the Turkish society is living in a lie about its immediate past, while its neighbour and the rest of the world is pointing at her as denier of its horrible past. Much of the political and cultural oppression within Turkey can not be improved if first don't come clean with your past.

"The path to prevention of crimes agiast humanity begins with recognition and reconciliation".
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