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Can armenians reclaim eastern anatolia??

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  Quote armenica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Can armenians reclaim eastern anatolia??
    Posted: 23-Feb-2006 at 07:47
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

It's so feeble to see how Turkish and Azeri media time after time try to give the image of the devilish diaspora while Armenia doesn't want anything but forgiving and forgetting. You have been fed by the same lying aparatus for over 90 years, so no news there either. My advice to you: read other sources but the Turkish and Azeri and you might see the reality.

Armenia is not portraited that way in the Turkish media. I don't know the Azeri media, but I doubt that they do it either. You are so far from the reality that you think you know what Turkish media says better than I do.

As I said before, keep on dreaming.  



Well, the news which is published on the English versions of Turkish papers constantly try to that: "The dreaming diaspora, who inflicts hostility between Turkey and the poor starving Armenia who doesn't want anything but to establish contact with its powerful neighbour". But then again ignorance is the best tool to escape reality. "Divide and conquer", isn't right?

The Batum treaty, in which Armenia was forced to give up the Kars and Ardahan provinces, and later the Moscow treaty were not a treaty that Armenia had any kind of saying during the "negotiations". The first was at time when it was "sign the papper or get ready to be wipeed out of the face of the earth". It happened when Russia had abandoned the front, Georgia had in secret made a deal with the German enemy, and the Muslims refused to defence the country against their invading "ethnical brothers".  The second one was signed by Soviet Union, and Stalin had no problem what so ever for selling the entire Armenian nation if it meant securing good relations with Kemalist Turkey.

"At the same time as it agitated for repatriation, the Soviet government raised the Armenian Question for the first time since the sovietisation of Armenia. On June 7, 1945, Foreign Minister Viacheslav Molotov told the Turkish ambassador in Moscow that the Kars and Ardahan districts, which had been formally ceded to Turkey by Soviet Russia in 1921, would now have to be returned to the Soviet Union. Although the Turks wanted peaceful relations with the USSR, they were unwilling to make territorial concessions. Soviet pressure pushed Turkey toward an alliance with the West. Through 1945 and 1946 the Soviet Union made repeated claims against Turkey, both in the name of the Armenian and the Georgian republics. On October 27, 1947, Ambassador Andrei Vyshinski spoke at the United Nations in favour of the return of Kars and Ardahan to Georgia, compromising the moral and political claims of the Armenians."

So the request is not just a dream and definitely not exclusively Armenian either.
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  Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2006 at 10:19
"He wrote that others will help Armenia in taking land from Turkey. Well, they got all the help they could in 1915 and what happened?"

This is what you wrote. So where did all the help come from? If it did come, would 2 million of them die/get deported? So I am assuming by "all the help" you mean the Russians? who entered in 1915 and withdrew in 1917?

"I said I dont trust Turkey and I said Armenian genocide took place. And you call me a nationalist. And I sure as hell havent insulted anyone for being an Armenian. You are just lying in desparation."

Its very noble of you to accept the Genocide, but I was making the example of you being nationalist and/or a racist because thats what you called him, through your own definition. I did not state you were one, its not my fault you do not understand sarcasm.

"The Westerners werent there because they couldnt come. The Russians, who are Europeans, did come, but as you write it wasnt enough. This is what I wrote in the first place, you had far more help than you will ever have, but it wasnt enough to take land from Turkey."

Exactly, they couldnt, so where does all the help come from...Russians, under General Yudenich had to withdraw in 1917 to fight the Bolsheviks, thats why it wasnt enough...how do you call this far more help? maybe if they had stayed...

"Most of what I wrote , rather obviously refers to events before the genocide."

there was no English, French, or US presence in the Ottoman Empire, to use the Armenians as a fifth column...

"What do I revere that Talat said? 1 million (maybe more) deported (most of which died), 500k killed or converted and some remained, makes sense. There is no need to inflate numbers, they are already bad enough."

I did noty say revere Talaat, I said revered Ataturk. You said before "some said he (Ataturk) did mention Armenians and some say he didnt"

so..."how nice of you to revere everything else he said, except his supposedly speech of Armenians. More like 1.5 million had died. But lets go with your numbers this time. So what happened to the other 500,000. What did they do, disapparate?...but then again, J.K. Rowlin has not been born yet, so, probably no..."

"Well, Turkey wasnt destroyed. So, following your logic it is impossible to make Turkey to accept. I dont agree. You can make Turkey apologise by dialogue. If thats what you really want (I doubt it). But if you want land, that wont happen if Turkey is not totally defeated. Which wont happen anytime soon."

Exactly, unlike Germany, Turkey came out as its own country, so there was no necessity to recognize the Genocide, especially when both camps  (Communist/Capitalist) wanted Turkey to ally with them.
How is my logic saying that Turkey should be destroyed. If Turkey gets destroyed so will Armenia...and who said that I wanted the lands back for real. If Armenia actually did get the lands back, it would be a muslim country...when I said "hope", I meant in a nostalgic kind of way...As I have stated before, the lands can not come back to Armenia unless the people living there wanted to join Armenia. Most Armenians realize that if they got the land by force, it would be very bad for Armenia in general. But unfortunetly those Armenians dont have a voice, it is the idiot Dashnaks who press for the treaty of Sevres...but still, all Armenians "hope" that the lands, some day will be ours again. That kind of hoping is a danger when you actually believe that you will get the lands back and you are taking actions to achieve it.

"I wrote spoken like a true fascist. Because he wrote like a fascist. It is true Turkey is trying to oppress dissent, but there is more of a debate in Turkey. But I am not proud of being united, that's what fascists do. And thats what you claim, so I dont understand what Turkey does has to do with this."

Since when is being untied fascist mentality? Being united for the fight for recognition of the Genocide is not fascistic..

"Whats your problem now? IQ, English, or nationalist blindness?"

oh look, you have called me a nationalist too...and then you say why I have supposedly called you a nationalist...even though one of my favorite leaders is Suleyman the Magnificient...

"It's so feeble to see how Turkish and Azeri media time after time try to give the image of the devilish diaspora while Armenia doesn't want anything but forgiving and forgetting. You have been fed by the same lying aparatus for over 90 years, so no news there either."

ok so lets dissect the paragraph. The first is almost true (since not all Turkish media criticizes the diaspora). The second part makes no mention of the Armenian Republic and the Azeri media...

and this is what you wrote

"Indeed, that's the case. It was the other guy who wrote that Azeri media portraits Armenia positively and demonises the diaspora, tell this to him, not to me. "

do you see anywhere on that paragraph that Azeri media treats Armenia positively?????

"I edited a faulty quote closing tag, which made my response look as a part of the message I quoted. You probably have seen that it was that way and now it looks ok."

I havent changed one word, nor taken stuff out. You are a liar, I am disappointed."

Actually, I was writing a reply to your original post, I accidentaly clicked backspace, it went to the previous page, so my reply was deleted, I came back and your post was changed...I did not memorize your post...usually the reason people edit, is that some phrase look really stupid...so they take it out (at least thats what I do...0

I am disappointed too...unlike in your other posts, you insult people here, because you dont agree with them...I wonder how you would feel like, if someone erronously said "you have a Nazi mentality..."

oh, and what makes me a liar?

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  Quote kotumeyil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 04:36

Originally posted by mamikon

there was no English, French, or US presence in the Ottoman Empire, to use the Armenians as a fifth column...

There were missionary schools especially in the cities where Armenians lived..

Also helping does not only refer to just fighting together with Armenians at the same place. The Entante was fighting with the Ottomans on different fronts that would keep a big section of Ottoman forces busy and away from the Armenians. They promised Armenians an autonomous Armenia if they fought against Turkey.

This is from an Armenian site, www.cilicia.com :

In the days of the First World War, in 1916, two of the allied countries, England and France, had signed a secret agreement (Sikes-Picaud) that, in case of the defeat of Turkey, Cilicia, having two millions six hundred thousand hectares of arable and fertile lands, would pass under the supervision of France. The English and French authorities had agreed with the Armenian National delegation that, if the Armenian volunteers would fight against Turkey, the Armenians would enjoy ample political rights after the victory and the Armenian volunteers would constitute the garrison of the towns of the newly-formed Autonomous Armenian Cilicia.

In fact they wanted to share the lands of Ottomans so they used poor Armenians. They only cared about their interests, not the Armenians' lives.

By claiming land and mentioning Sevres you are only serving the interests of Turkish ultranationalists. This is why many Turkish people reject even the slightest Armenian claims, because they afraid that they will be forced to leave their land to Armenians and this fear is always supported by nationalist powers. In this way, you are preventing the Turks who understand Armenians' pains from persuading the people that Armenians lived horrible things...

  



Edited by kotumeyil
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  Quote armenica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 05:14
Originally posted by kotumeyil

Originally posted by mamikon

there was no English, French, or US presence in the Ottoman Empire, to use the Armenians as a fifth column...

There were missionary schools especially in the cities where Armenians lived..

Also helping does not only refer to just fighting together with Armenians at the same place. The Entante was fighting with the Ottomans on different fronts that would keep a big section of Ottoman forces busy and away from the Armenians. They promised Armenians an autonomous Armenia if they fought against Turkey.

This is from an Armenian site, www.cilicia.com :

USA did not join the WWI until very late into the war. French, English and other missionary groups and schools did leave the area after the outbreak of the war. The foremost evidence from this accounts comes from German and Austrian sources (e.g. Armin T. Wegner) i.e. the allies of Turkey. The majority of the French and English reports comes from the pre war time and from the governmental consuls who left Turkey when the Ottoman joined the Central Powers in late 1914. Don't get confused about who did what and when.

And (at least for the third time in this forum) Armenian had never any aspirations of independence until the revelation of what had taken place in Western Armenia. Official documents during past conferences and congresses (Stan Stefano and later Berlin) clearly indicates that Armenians only demanded for "reforms" and "cultural autonomy within the framework of the Ottoman Empire". You keep forgetting this very important fact. Armenians only started talking about independent Armenia when they came to the conclusion that they, as "Armenians" had no place what so ever in a future Turkey: Empire or Republic. Both the Ottoman Empire and the subsequent Young Turks had proofen that Armenians were regarded as a problem which must be removed.

Originally posted by kotumeyil

In the days of the First World War, in 1916, two of the allied countries, England and France, had signed a secret agreement (Sikes-Picaud) that, in case of the defeat of Turkey, Cilicia, having two millions six hundred thousand hectares of arable and fertile lands, would pass under the supervision of France. The English and French authorities had agreed with the Armenian National delegation that, if the Armenian volunteers would fight against Turkey, the Armenians would enjoy ample political rights after the victory and the Armenian volunteers would constitute the garrison of the towns of the newly-formed Autonomous Armenian Cilicia.

In fact they wanted to share the lands of Ottomans so they used poor Armenians. They only cared about their interests, not the Armenians' lives.

By claiming land and mentioning Sevres you are only serving the interests of Turkish ultranationalists. This is why many Turkish people reject even the slightest Armenian claims, because they afraid that they will be forced to leave their land to Armenians and this fear is always supported by nationalist powers. In this way, you are preventing the Turks who understand Armenians' pains from persuading the people that Armenians lived horrible things...

Whether ultranationalists or liberals like it or not, Svres was still a legitimite treaty, the same as the Batum treaty. The Batum treaty was forced upon Armenia and then I guess it would be equally correct to reject it on the same basis as you count for Svres. But of some reason you think that the annexation of Kars, Ardahan and the Igdir plain is quite justifiable, right? So no surprises there I would say.

But the fact remains that the "ultranationalists" nor the "Svres treaty" are the main question here. Armenian diaspora might have indicated the possible consequences from the Svres treaty, but the Armenian goverment has never made such claims and it's the Armenian government that Turkey has to deal with, not the Armenian diaspora. In that case it should be no problem for the "moderate" Turkish majority to acknowledge the Armenian genocide, if that's what you are insinuating.



Edited by armenica
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  Quote kotumeyil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 05:44

The following quote is from an Armenian site:

http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=Armenian_Genocid e

As other Christian minorities gained their independence one by one, the Armenians became more isolated as the only major Christian minority. Armenians and Turks began to have conflicting dreams of the future. Some Armenians began to call for independence like the Greeks and others had already received, while some Turks began to envision a new Pan-Turkic empire spreading all the way to Turkic speaking parts of Central Asia. Armenians were the only ethnic group in between these two major pockets of Turkish speakers and the nationalist Turks wanted to get rid of them altogether.

It's obvious that Armenians had plans of independence prior to 1914. In an age of nationalism, claiming that there wsn't a plan of independence by Armenians is nonsense.

Originally posted by armenica

Whether ultranationalists or liberals like it or not, Svres was still a legitimite treaty, the same as the Batum treaty. The Batum treaty was forced upon Armenia and then I guess it would be equally correct to reject it on the same basis as you count for Svres. But of some reason you think that the annexation of Kars, Ardahan and the Igdir plain is quite justifiable, right? So no surprises there I would say.

The rules of international relations are put by power. Turks fought and tore the Treaty of Sevres but Armenians couldn't tore the Batum Treaty. It's so simple.

I think if Armenians want to come back to their homes, they should apply for citizenship of Turkey or support the candidacy of Turkey to the EU so that they can come back and settle in Turkey. If they want to govern the lands by their own, this means war. No one presents owned land in a golden plate. 

 

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  Quote armenica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 07:54
Originally posted by kotumeyil

The following quote is from an Armenian site:

http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=Armenian_Genocid e

As other Christian minorities gained their independence one by one, the Armenians became more isolated as the only major Christian minority. Armenians and Turks began to have conflicting dreams of the future. Some Armenians began to call for independence like the Greeks and others had already received, while some Turks began to envision a new Pan-Turkic empire spreading all the way to Turkic speaking parts of Central Asia. Armenians were the only ethnic group in between these two major pockets of Turkish speakers and the nationalist Turks wanted to get rid of them altogether.

It's obvious that Armenians had plans of independence prior to 1914. In an age of nationalism, claiming that there wsn't a plan of independence by Armenians is nonsense.

Armenpedia is an open encyklopedia just as any other wikipedia site. It means that anyone can write in it, and taht by no means that all text stated in Armenpedia is therefore the actual truth or can be regarded as the absolute rule.

"Some Armenians" did propogate for independence, and in retroperspective they had all the right in the world to do so. But the fact remains that the major political parties, namely Dashnaktsouytoun and Hntchak, up to the start of the massacres, advocated for "cultural autonomy" and at its top "Federative rule within an Ottoman Empire" and nothing more.

http://www.armenica.org/cgi-bin/history/en/getHistory.cgi?7= =283

In 1892, the first party convention of Dashnaktsoutyoun demanded: "Political and economic freedom to Western Armenia". At the fourth convention, in 1907, in reaction to the intervening events, the party's aim was extended to the self-governance of Western Armenia within the framework of the Ottoman Empire and the self-governance of Eastern Armenia within the framework of a federal Russia. Subsequently, during the ninth convention of the party in Yerevan, in 1909, these two goals merged into one challenge: "One united and independent Armenia".

And secondly, and most important, any kind of these aspirations does in no way justify a genocide even if the Armenians wanted to establish an independent Armenia. There is no justification which would say: "Oh, right! If they wanted independence and separation from Turkey, then it is OK to commit genocide". A genocide is a genocide!

Originally posted by kotumeyil


Originally posted by armenica

Whether ultranationalists or liberals like it or not, Svres was still a legitimite treaty, the same as the Batum treaty. The Batum treaty was forced upon Armenia and then I guess it would be equally correct to reject it on the same basis as you count for Svres. But of some reason you think that the annexation of Kars, Ardahan and the Igdir plain is quite justifiable, right? So no surprises there I would say.

The rules of international relations are put by power. Turks fought and tore the Treaty of Sevres but Armenians couldn't tore the Batum Treaty. It's so simple.

I think if Armenians want to come back to their homes, they should apply for citizenship of Turkey or support the candidacy of Turkey to the EU so that they can come back and settle in Turkey. If they want to govern the lands by their own, this means war. No one presents owned land in a golden plate. 



Would there be anything else? Any financial aid for your membership campaign?

Prof. Cicek who represented the intellectual historical society in Turkey suggested (and I quote) "Armenian diaspora should actually be thankful for the deportation measures by the Ottoman government and they should pay the present Turkish government for the expenses that these deportations cost for the Ottoman government"!!!! People called it shameful; Dr. Tessa Hofmann (from Germany) demanded an apology to the present Armenians in the conference hall, while others just laughed at his lame statement.

And that is exactly what the Turkish argumentation is based upon. There is no end to Turkish ignorance! Turkey has long way of pshycological preparation before she can realize and admit the horours it committed and that the Western Armenian lands which the republic of Turkey inherited are soaking with the blood of its former Armenian citizens which it had the duty to protect, not slaughter.

Turkey has started to wake up from the 90 years old lethargy. More and more historians, journalists, teachers and others come to the conclusion that something with the cover up story doesn't hold water. They have seen the truth and some of them have accepted the harsh but true reality. The rest will follow in due time.


Edited by armenica
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  Quote kotumeyil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 08:20

Subsequently, during the ninth convention of the party in Yerevan, in 1909, these two goals merged into one challenge: "One united and independent Armenia".

I think 1909 is before the WWI...

And secondly, and most important, any kind of these aspirations does in no way justify a genocide even if the Armenians wanted to establish an independent Armenia. There is no justification which would say: "Oh, right! If they wanted independence and separation from Turkey, then it is OK to commit genocide". A genocide is a genocide!

I don't reject and legitimize the ethnic cleansing against Armenians and I apologize to the victims.

Would there be anything else? Any financial aid for your membership campaign?

No, thanks (for me being member or not doesn't matter . Anyway, seriously, supporting the EU process of Turkey serves to the development of human rights and democracy in Turkey. Also, the membership of Turkey in the EU provides free movement and settlement so that Armenians can settle in Turkey if they really want this. I really do want to live together with Armenians friendly.

The topic is about Armenian claims on Eastern Anatolia, so I say this: If Armenians want to retun to Anatolia, Turkish state should allow this. However if Armenians want to take Eastern Anatolia for themselves and want to govern it, this brings war. This is obvious. 

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  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 08:31
Originally posted by kotumeyil

No, thanks (for me being member or not doesn't matter . Anyway, seriously, supporting the EU process of Turkey serves to the development of human rights and democracy in Turkey. Also, the membership of Turkey in the EU provides free movement and settlement so that Armenians can settle in Turkey if they really want this. I really do want to live together with Armenians friendly.

Wrong! Even if Turkey is a eu member right now, the people living in cant settle anywhere because it isnt included in the criteria. They will part of eu but not part of eu-citizenship.

Trkiyeye serbest dolasim hakki taninmiyor simdilik, eger ab'ye ye olsa bile.

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  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 08:34
Originally posted by kotumeyil

I don't reject and legitimize the ethnic cleansing against Armenians and I apologize to the victims.

You apologize for "victims", but the contra "vieuw" didnt even committed they killed thousands of civilians, let by commiting it not any sorry for it...

taviz....

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  Quote armenica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 08:45
Originally posted by kotumeyil

Subsequently, during the ninth convention of the party in Yerevan, in 1909, these two goals merged into one challenge: "One united and independent Armenia".

I think 1909 is before the WWI...


That's your primerly problem. You're not serious about this. If you were serious about it then you would study the details. Yes, WWI started in 1914, but the masscres of the Armenians did claim 150.000-200.000 (Erzurum, Van, Kharpout, Sivas) lives in 1894-96 and about another 15.000-20.000 (as more as 30.000 has been reported too) in 1909 (Adana).

Click on
http://www.armenica.org/cgi-bin/history/en/getHistory.cgi?2= 1=0=999=nada=1=3=A

and go down to 1890:

1890: In June 1890 there was a bloodbath in Erzurum. The Ottoman military had, on account of a groundless report and lies, intruded the Armenian church in Erzurum in order to search for hidden weapons. The Armenians, infuriated by this desecration, under the leadership of one of their most famous figures, Harutyun Pasdermadjian, tried to defend the church but the Turkish military executed them on the spot.

1893: The prelude tot the mass murders during 1894-1896 began with the events in Sasoun. The Armenians in this mountainous region suffered especially more from the Kurdish assaults and crimes. Since the creation of the Homayoun lackeys, the Kurds had been armed to the teeth. Besides the taxes which the Armenians must pay to the government, they were also forced to pay illegal fees and taxes to the Kurdish clan leaders.

1893: The Armenians in Sasoun refused to subject themselves to this oppression, i.e. to pay illegal taxes and fees to the Kurds who were about to ruin them. However, they continued to pay their taxes to the collectors of the Ottoman government. The Kurds who had been angered by this action attacked the Armenians of Sasoun, but these courageous mountaineers hit them back. Then the Kurds called for help from the Turkish government and the Turks immediately sent an armed force to the area. These soldiers, who were led by General Zeki Pasha, joined the Kurds, occupied Sasoun and started a horrible mass slaughter (August 1894). This mass murder, which was the first link in a long chain of crimes and oppression which was about to continue from 1894 to 1922, was perhaps the most terrifying one in regard to how it was carried out compared with all other mass murders which happened after it, since 3 500 out of 12,000 Armenians in Sasoun were murdered.

1895: In September, the Armenians in Constantinople arranged a demonstration led by the Hntchak party, which ended in a bloodbath. In the wakes of this event, other large massacres took place, from September and all the way to December 1895. Large scale massacres took also place in Trabizond, Bayberout, Erzurum, Erzinjan, Bitlis 186/412, Diyarbakir, Kharpout, Arabkir, Malatya, Sivas, Mardin, Aintab, Marash and Caesarea. These massacres reached their peak in Ourfa, where 3,000 Armenians were murdered during the first week of the new year, of whom the majority were women and children who had taken cover in the city church. These were burned alive in the church.

1896:


The massacres start to decline since the major power shave started to realise the magnitude of the events in the distant Armenian provinces, but new massacres continue to take place in Moush and Kilis Vajin. The sum of the victims for the massacres in 1894, 1895 and 1896 have been estimated to around 150,000 people and this figure is the sum of 100,000-110,000 murdered plus another tens of thousands who lost their lives during the harsh winter in Armenia since their homes had been burned to the ground and they lacked food and heating, as well as children who had become orphans when their mother and father had fallen victims for the massacres. To this figure one must add those who had been forced to convert to Islam (the alternative was the death), the number of who according to the French ambassador amounted to 40,000 persons.

1909: new massacre of the Armenians started in the Armenian provinces and especially in Cilicia. It is still uncertain who was behind these massacres which cost the lives of 15,000 Armenians, and we don't know whether this was the last act of vengeance of the fallen regime or the first measure of the new one. One of the best experts on eastern questions, Viktor Berard, claims firmly that the cooperation between some of the people in the Progress and Development in these events can be proved with certainty.

These were the major massacres. There were plenty more inbetween.

Originally posted by kotumeyil


And secondly, and most important, any kind of these aspirations does in no way justify a genocide even if the Armenians wanted to establish an independent Armenia. There is no justification which would say: "Oh, right! If they wanted independence and separation from Turkey, then it is OK to commit genocide". A genocide is a genocide!

I don't reject and legitimize the ethnic cleansing against Armenians
and I apologize to the victims.


Not everyone has the courage to admit that.


Originally posted by kotumeyil


Would there be anything else? Any financial aid for your membership campaign?

No, thanks (for me being member or not doesn't matter . Anyway, seriously, supporting the EU process of Turkey serves to the development of human rights and democracy in Turkey. Also, the membership of Turkey in the EU provides free movement and settlement so that Armenians can settle in Turkey if they really want this. I really do want to live together with Armenians friendly.

The topic is about Armenian claims on Eastern Anatolia, so I say this: If Armenians want to retun to Anatolia, Turkish state should allow this. However if Armenians want to take Eastern Anatolia for themselves and want to govern it, this brings war. This is obvious. 



I have never seen an official claim to lands in eastern Turkey.  You should be able to keep apart the official demands and claims of the Armenian govrenment and the aspirations of the general Armenian community. The main problem in this issue remains the Turkish denial of the Armenian Genocide. Most of the frustration and calls for retaliations originate in the fact that Turkey has neither recognised nor apologised for its past behaviour towards its Armenian population. That is the profound problem. Armenians have never been given the opportunity to close that chapter in their history and are still, after 90 years, stamping on the same page waiting for an apology. A recognition and an official apology will ease much of that old wound that has never healed. And to be honest it doesn't sound that appealing that Armenians go back and pay for something that belonged to them before the ethnic cleansing.Would you?

If Turkey does not acknowledge the Armenian genocide and comes clean with its past, no Armenian would ever feel safe or willing to come back to what they had called their fatherland for over 2500 years. A recognition might change much of that attitude and who knows, maybe many of them will return to their homes.
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  Quote Artaxiad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 09:05
Originally posted by kotumeyil

I think 1909 is before the WWI...

In 1914, there was another congress in Erzurum, where it was stated that during the War,  Eastern Armenians shall remain loyal to the Russian Empire, and Western Armenians will remain loyal to the Ottoman Empire by fulfilling their duties in their respective countries.

From armenica.org:


1914:

The leaders of Union and Progress first attempted to ensure themselves of the cooperation of the Armenians and asked them to start an armed revolt in East Armenia and Transcaucasia and in return they were promised self-governance for East Armenia and the neighbouring areas in West Armenia after the war. The leadership of the Dashnak party rejected this offer during its congress in August 1914, which was held in Erzurum and replied that, at an eventual war between Turkey and Russia, the Armenians are obliged to fight for their respective land . Exactly as Winston Churchill reminds: the Armenians preferred the war, with brother-killings in two fronts, to the suggestion of the Turks about treason against the Russians

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  Quote kotumeyil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 09:50

@armenica

I'm not asking about the reasons. You first claimed that the Armenians had no idea of independence prior to WWI. Subsequently, in your own post it was shown that the long-term idea of the Dashnaksutiun was a "one united and independent Armenia" in 1909. This is a contradiction.

I have never seen an official claim to lands in eastern Turkey.  You should be able to keep apart the official demands and claims of the Armenian govrenment and the aspirations of the general Armenian community.

However, one of the parties in the government coalition (if not changed) is Dashnaksutiun and here's its goals from the official page: http://www.arfd.am/english/policy/programme.php

Goals

The Armenian Revolutionary Federation's goals are:

A- The creation of a Free, Independent, and United Armenia. The borders of United Armenia shall include all territories designated as Armenia by the Treaty of Sevres as well as the regions of Artzakh, Javakhk, and Nakhichevan.

B- International condemnation of the as yet unpunished Genocide committed by Turkey against the Armenians, return of the occupied lands, and just reparations to the Armenian nation.

C- The gathering of worldwide expatriate Armenians on the lands of United Armenia.

D- Strengthening Armenia's statehood, institutionalization of democracy and the rule of law, securing the people's economic well being, and establishment of social justice.

Originally posted by Day

kotumeyil wrote:

I don't reject and legitimize the ethnic cleansing against Armenians and I apologize to the victims.

You apologize for "victims", but the contra "vieuw" didnt even committed they killed thousands of civilians, let by commiting it not any sorry for it...

taviz....

It's their shame, not mine.



Edited by kotumeyil
[IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg">
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  Quote Artaxiad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 11:56
It is the Dashnaktsoutyoun's legitimate right in Armenia, which is a democratic country. 
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 16:03

The truth is, people who think like me are trying in Turkey to make the government apologise for its actions, and those people are facing abuse from the nationalist, the media, the public, and the state persecutes them. Despite this the debate has started and our voices are being heard. Outside pressure is good for making Turkey more democratic, EU should press for that anytime. But what the Armenians do is coming up with imperialist agendas like Sevres treaty or making the Europeans pass genocide laws, which the Turks use to justify their own oppression of dissent. We can make Turkish state behave differently, if you work with us, but we cant get anywhere as long as you come to the table as imperialist lackeys. Most of Turkish Armenians agree with me on this point. They are quite fed up with the actions of the diaspora, and their demands for land, which strengthens the hands of Turkish nationalists. Just be warned that nobody in Turkey will side with the imperialists or their lackeys. Possibly except the liberals in press, a tiny minority. So the mention of Sevres just destroys the Armenian cause In Turkey. It seems the diaspora who live in luxury, and in their fantasy world of glorious greater Armenia, dont really care about achieving a solution, and they would prefer more tragedies befalling the real Armenians, otherwise they would lose their sacred cause.

why? I mean why are you trying to force or convince turkey to apologise armenians? what is pratical benefits of this? We cannot revive  death innocent armenians, and I think most of living armenians dont deserve much sympaty.

what is benefit of recognizing and apologising for armenian genocide?

It will only handicap our international relation. (we are supporting azeris, and I dont think this will change in short run)

 

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  Quote Digenis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 16:26
Originally posted by Mortaza

what is benefit of recognizing and apologising for armenian genocide?




A question which reveals a democratic and open-minded person...
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 16:36

Yeah, I am listening you and Infact If I find you true, I will change my ideas.

Can you know more democratic and open-minded person. I know what is harm of recognizing but I dont know what is benefit.

 

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  Quote Digenis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 16:59
Ask the Germans about the Holocaust.

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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 17:05

Well, most probably they will say, our cities are burned, our people were killed, we are under gun, and we had no choice.

By the way, Antic greeks had wisdom. So I hope sons of them also have some wisdom.

why?

 

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  Quote Digenis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 17:13
?
I m afraid u didnt understand.

The Germans recognised the holocaust and blamed their former governments policies,

Every democratic and civilized state and furthermore(!) every democratic person should take his responsibilities,and recognize its/his faults,without thinking for benefits!




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  Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 17:28
I think most of living armenians dont deserve much sympaty

what the hell?????

 
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