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mamikon
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Topic: Can armenians reclaim eastern anatolia?? Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 00:23 |
Originally posted by erci
Georgia is a stooge of US and Turkey.Don't expect much from Javakh situation
same goes for hemsins.They are one of the most religious(muslim) people in Turkey I known of.
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Georgia is not a stooge of US and Turkey...its a stooge of Russia, if
Georgia/Armenia relations turn sour, Javakh will succeed from Georgia,
and Georgia will fall apart (there are already 3 autonomous oblasts in
Georgia...which is only about 68 km^2 in area...). Russia is by all
means the dominating force in the region, and its playing the Caucasian
states against each other to keep its power there. Take a look at
Azerbaijan for example, not until Aliev came to power did Russia
negotiate a treaty, mainly pushing Armenia for a ceasefire...
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Beylerbeyi
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Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 15:31 |
Eastern Hamshenis call themselves Armenians. Islamicized Armenians still recognize that they are Armenians whose grandparents converted to Islam during WW1. I'm not arguing about the land issue here (I already gave my opinion on that), I'm just clarifying that many Hamshenis identify themselves as Armenians (especially in the Eastern group). |
Hemshenis are Armenians. But they don't identify with them. I have personal experience with East Hemshenis and they sure as hell didn't call themselves Armenian. I called them Armenian, and they didn't like it. Most even don't know that their so-called language is an Armenian dialect. Besides they are not populous enough to create a base for Armenian claims in Eastern Turkey.
Stop deluding yourself.
Edited by Beylerbeyi
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 17:37 |
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi
Besides they are not populous enough to create a base for Armenian claims in Eastern Turkey.
Stop deluding yourself. |
I'm not deluding anyone. If you read my
previous posts on the topic you would know that I didn't bring them up
to make an argument about populating eastern Anatolia. Theres only
around 50,000 Hamshenis in the Black Sea region, and theyre only the
majority population in 1 village.
Anyways, in the unlikely situation that
Armenia gets the land, they would probably have a mass Armenian
immigration from the diaspora to the region in order to balance it with
the Kurdish population. And thats IF they could give Armenians in the
diaspora enough incentive to go back. I just don't see how any of those
steps would manifest into reality. Doesn't mean its impossible, just
very unlikely.
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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance
Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։
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mamikon
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Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 18:58 |
yup, not impossible, only unlikely
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erkut
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Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 19:01 |
impossible
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erci
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Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 21:54 |
Nothing is impossible yet it is unlikely as you said.
The Constitution of the Republic of Turkey
ARTICLE 3. The Turkish state, with its territory and nation, is an indivisible
entity. Its language is Turkish.
Its flag, the form of which is prescribed by the relevant law, is composed of a
white crescent and star on a red background.
Its national anthem is the Independence March.
Its capital is Ankara.
IV. Irrevocable Provisions
ARTICLE 4. The provision of Article 1 of the Constitution establishing the form
of the state as a Republic, the provisions in Article 2 on the characteristics
of the Republic, and the provision of Article 3 shall not be amended, nor shall
their amendment be proposed.
Which means you have to declare war on Turkey to make it happen.
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Artaxiad
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Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 22:26 |
Nobody is advocating war.
Turkey is in a delusional state, when every sign of difference is a serious threat. For example, Turkey changed the latin names of certain plants/animals which had the word "Armenicus" in their names. Turkey has many rivals/enemies, even in its' own soil. Turkey might eventually fall by itself, as a consequence of an eventually difficult geopolitical situation. Armenia just has to wait there and develop by its' own, until the time comes.
Edited by Artaxiad
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mamikon
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Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 22:57 |
hmmm...we might get Kars, Ardahan , and Trebizond...the rest will be Kurdis.
note...MIGHT...as the operative word, if Turkey does fall apart.
but if it does, prolly the whole region will be engulfed in a war
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erci
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Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 23:03 |
oh yea, there are Kurds in Turkey right? and the greeks and armenians who are waiting for Turkey to loose power.
Why aren't you instead trying to improve your relations with Turkey but wasting your time and waiting for hand out.Wouldn't that be better for Armenia?
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mamikon
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Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 23:20 |
lol...take it easy dude...no one is trying to steal anything...all I
have said that Armenia getting land back is very improbably but
possible...
why am not I? I am personally ok with Turks...
You might want to talk to Kocharyan about the Armenian-Turkish relations...
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Artaxiad
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Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 23:29 |
Hey, Turkey closed the border, not Armenia. It didn't need to meddle into Armenian-Azerbaijani affairs back when the struggle for Karabagh started...
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erci
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Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 00:00 |
Originally posted by mamikon
lol...take it easy dude...no one is trying to steal anything...all I
have said that Armenia getting land back is very improbably but
possible...
why am not I? I am personally ok with Turks...
You might want to talk to Kocharyan about the Armenian-Turkish relations...
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I'm perfectly calm, thanks tho I wasn't referring to you or other armenian members here.I mean not literally you of course
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armenica
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Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 02:44 |
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi
How about the second largest military in NATO?
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That won't hold for long. The importance of Turkey as the bastion of
NATO against the Red threast has declined since the end of the Cold
War, and the recent development between US and Turkey and Turkish
refusal to allow US use the air force bases in eastern Turkey has made
a essential change in how important ally Turkey is in NATO.
No Armenians are left there. Hemshenis are not very many, and they are
likely to shoot you if you call them Armenian, so I wouldn't trust them
that much personally.
This may be possible if you can convince the Kurds to join
Armenia, though. But, of course, they would rather join
Kurdistan than Armenia, if they had the choice. Good luck, anyway,
you're gonna need it.
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There are plenty Armenians left in Western Armenia, be assured. They
just have chosen not to make big deal out of it and that of clear
reasons. They are not as many as before but around couple of hundred
thousand or so. I knwo lots of people who still have close relatives in
the region, who know they are of Armenian descent, even though they are
Muslims (muslimised after the Armenian Genocide), speak Turkish or
Kurdish and have turkified Armenian surnames or simple bare Turkish
names.
And wouldn't say that anything is impossible. The human life is to
short to able some people to see the greater picture and possibilities.
General Tito would call you out of your mind if someone in 1975 would
tell him that Yugoslavia would cease to exist in less than 20 years.
The same would go for Stalin about 50 years ago.
So nothing is impossible. 10 years ago, Turkey, the strong NATO ally,
wouldn't dream of having to face accusations about the Armenian
Genocide from Germany, did she? But then in 2005 Germany recognised the
"so-called" genocide which assumably never took place.
Never say never...
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Qajar
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Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 09:54 |
It will never happened.
I think it would be good for everyone if armenians start care much more about their internal problems rather externals.
The population of Armenia has been constantly dicreesing since 1991. There are about 2 mln armenians live there at the moment. Interesting isn't it???))
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Shah Ismail I Sefevid - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasti of Iran.
Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasty in Iran.
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DayI
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Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 09:58 |
there are more armenians outside armenia then in armenia, im somethimes confusing them with israel.
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Bashibozuk
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Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 10:45 |
Trabzon? The only reason for the fiasco of Sevres to give Trabzon to a newly formed Armenian state was to provide them some sort of trading port. And as you know, Erzurum, and the surrounding regions are the castles for Turkish nationalism in the east, Igdir is Azeri Turks by majority and Erzincan, well they got rid of Armenian invaders once, they can do it again!
Returning to real life, Armenia is no way claiming lands from anyone, except official Azerbaijani land of Karabagh. The total population of whole Armenia is less than the total population of five provinces of Eastern Turkey.
Edited by Bashibozuk - 07-Jul-2006 at 05:23
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Garibim, namima Kerem diyorlar,
Asli'mi el almis, harem diyorlar.
Hastayim, derdime verem diyorlar,
Marasli Seyhoglu Satilmis'im ben.
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armenica
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Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 13:45 |
Well, with lovely neighbours such as you, enforced embargo and constant threats and closed borders, I think it is a great (well monumental) achievement to have an independent Armenia to begin with. That Armenia's GDP per capita is not that much less than the "great" Turkey, speaks its own truth.
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Mortaza
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Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 13:50 |
Err also you should remember your others lovely neighbours, russia georgia and iran.
It is not only our guilt.
Ah also you should get rid of your mafia style goverment.
By the way, I dont think armenia anytime can get trabzon, I think only my relatives have largest arsenal than ROA. Find another city. Trabzon is a dangerous city.
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DayI
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Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 14:55 |
Originally posted by armenica
Well, with lovely neighbours such as you, enforced embargo and constant threats and closed borders, I think it is a great (well monumental) achievement to have an independent Armenia to begin with. That Armenia's GDP per capita is not that much less than the "great" Turkey, speaks its own truth. |
Being just independent and directly invading karabagh isnt a correct way to begin with. How you turn or look at it, its armenia's own fault.
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Beylerbeyi
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Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 15:51 |
That Armenia's GDP per capita is not that much less than the "great" Turkey, speaks its own truth. |
Interestingly, while the USSR had double Turkey's GDP, independent Armenia had half of it until recently. It is still significantly less despite handouts from the diaspora. What truth does this speak of?
That won't hold for long. The importance of Turkey as the bastion of NATO against the Red threast has declined since the end of the Cold War, and the recent development between US and Turkey and Turkish refusal to allow US use the air force bases in eastern Turkey has made a essential change in how important ally Turkey is in NATO. |
So? It is not NATO that is the problem, it is the military. Do you think the military will disappear if Turkey leaves NATO tomorrow? Besides if Turkey leaves NATO, it will ally itself with Russia or Iran. Which will be pretty bad news for you.
There are plenty Armenians left in Western Armenia, be assured. They just have chosen not to make big deal out of it and that of clear reasons. They are not as many as before but around couple of hundred thousand or so. |
And I had always thought that I was an optimist. Let's say you are right for sake of argument, and 200k out of whatever million people in the region are self declared Armenians. What makes you think that they'll all support joining with Armenia? Let's assume they all do, do you think they are enough?
And wouldn't say that anything is impossible. The human life is to short to able some people to see the greater picture and possibilities. |
And some people live in their own fantasy land with pink clouds and purple skies.
General Tito would call you out of your mind if someone in 1975 would tell him that Yugoslavia would cease to exist in less than 20 years. |
That's a very bad example. Marshall (not General) Tito knew full well the nationalist threat in Yugoslavia.
The same would go for Stalin about 50 years ago. |
This is better. Yes, even the CIA couldn't guess 5 years ago. But this doesn't mean that Armenia will conquer Turkey.
So nothing is impossible. 10 years ago, Turkey, the strong NATO ally, wouldn't dream of having to face accusations about the Armenian Genocide from Germany, did she? But then in 2005 Germany recognised the "so-called" genocide which assumably never took place. |
This is all political maneouvering. It was concievable 10 years ago as well. Germany has already proved itself to be an unreliable ally back then, by making it clear that it would not help Turkey in case of an Iraqi attack during the first Gulf war (repeated it in the second one as well, with better reasons this time).
Keep on dreaming. Even if Turkey loses those areas, they will become Kurdish, not Armenian. And no imperialist great powers will invade Turkey and create an Armenian mandate for themselves, unlike in 1920, so I recommend not holding your breath.
Anyway, you don't represent the Armenian state. They have a realistic attitude. Diaspora is dreaming, but the state is sober, so the future could still be bright for all.
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