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Topic Closed(Scary Imams and gullable) Muslims versus Denmark (and fascists)

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: (Scary Imams and gullable) Muslims versus Denmark (and fascists)
    Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 05:03
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 05:37
Originally posted by azimuth


not making any sense really, its like some one stabbed you saying iam sorry you were hurt !!


Worthless analogy. Do you know what "intention" means?

Originally posted by azimuth


no no physical violence, i just can stand on the street infront of your house (not in your property) and "flash" your kids by taking of my cloths each time they come in or out, and for more "freedom of speach/expression" practicing i would swear at you and your relatives.


No you can't.

there are other examples of freedom of expression which does not have any physical violence if you want i'll state some more.

Do that. Freedom of speech ensures that the government and society can be accused and criticized of anything. It does also gives the right to mock people, but I'd take that anyday before living in a dictatorship. If you have problems with that, it's your problem.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 05:45

Here is the link to the leader in Arab News:http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&section=0&artic le=77170&d=1&m=2&y=2006

We want to be treated as equals with Christians, Jews and Sikhs, whose religions are officially recognized by the state,

Hmmm... When it comes to how the religions are treated in the media and in general in the population, they are all equal - everybody are sometimes being insulted etc. 

If he thinks about the Religions as institutions in the society, he has a point. In Denmark we have Religious Liberty but not completely Religious equality.  There is a small difference between the Christian Church and Islam. They both have the right to make weddings, burial plots etc. But in some aspects there are a difference - for instance can the Christian Church keep ministerial books while Islam can't.

I must admit I am having problems finding the difference between their rights - but even though they are small there is a difference.

I think it be a good idea to enter Religious equality into the Danish Constitution - actually one of the Parties in the Parliament, Det Radikal Venstre ("The Radical Left")  have made the surgestion, but changing the constitution is a very complicated and dangerous (especially for the parties in power) manoeuvre, so I don't when it is going to be changed.

Even though the Muslims Imams have a point with the Religious equality I don't think they should mix it into the conflict with Muhammed drawings.

The Danish media and public have the same right to criticize, praise or insult the Christian Church, the Jews etc. as well as the Muslims. The difference in equality as institutions in society doesn't change anything about the freedom of speech. All religions have the same rights when we talking about freedom of speech - No one are to holly to be criticized, insulted etc. by the public!

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 05:46
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

Originally posted by azimuth


not making any sense really, its like some one stabbed you saying iam sorry you were hurt !!


Worthless analogy. Do you know what "intention" means?

yes i know what intention means, you said in an earlier post they knew it will trigger anger and they wanted to test how much it would get.

so their intention was to provoke others .

Originally posted by Styrbiorn



Originally posted by azimuth


no no physical violence, i just can stand on the street infront of your house (not in your property) and "flash" your kids by taking of my cloths each time they come in or out, and for more "freedom of speach/expression" practicing i would swear at you and your relatives.


No you can't.

why not?

Originally posted by Styrbiorn



there are other examples of freedom of expression which does not have any physical violence if you want i'll state some more.

Do that. Freedom of speech ensures that the government and society can be accused and criticized of anything. It does also gives the right to mock people, but I'd take that anyday before living in a dictatorship. If you have problems with that, it's your problem.

well my point was i think not everything you say is "freedom of speach", the above example which you answered " no you cant" was one of these examples.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 05:53
Originally posted by azimuth

yes i know what intention means, you said in an earlier post they knew it will trigger anger and they wanted to test how much it would get.


so their intention was to provoke others .



Not provoke. Test limits. Big difference. They have repeatedly and clearly stated they did not mean to insult anyone.

Originally posted by azimuth


why not?


Because flashing is illegal. You could also get prosecuted for harassing the kids. If you did that, you'd end up in jail.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 06:23

well they can state whatever they want does not make it correct or fact, the fact is that they knew it will get many people provoked ( so they were expecting it),

what test limit means you think? see how far this provokation may get?

---

about the "flashing"  its a non-violent expression and as you say its illegal and i cannot practice that non-violent expression. SO my freedom of expression is LIMITED.

now if you can  plz give me the Illegal parts of "freedom of press and speach"

which will make that freedom is Limited and not unlimited.

-----------

my whole point  is that those "freedoms" people are defenting and caliming as its unlimited is actully limited.

and this issue ( the drawings ) are in a very fine line between the legal and the Ilegal and the only way many people are defending this act is by putting it under "freedom of expression", by doing that they will get much support.

on the other hand many thinks that it does NOT come under the legal freedom of speach and it infact from what is happening Spreading hatred, violence and racisim which supposed to be under the Illegal part of "speach/expression/press).

and plz dont tell me if you dont like it leave, we are discussing here not deciding on leaving or staying.

 



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 06:36

well I think, If we dont limit freedom of speach, we should not limit freedom of choose.(choose to by which product)

Also we should not limit those imams who made this problem an international problem.

Freedom for everybody, never mind,If this harm or belittle anyone.

limitless freedom!!

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 07:12

Originally posted by ulrich von hutten

it's only one year ago ,that the austrian cartoonist Gerhard Harderer  was convicted to six month prison of a court in Greece !!! the cartoon called "the life of jesus" was the reason for this example of religious totlerance in a western country. after the author foled a protest,  an appeal court  anualed the jugdment. it was the first time since 25 years the greece police confiscated books in bookstores.so much for the freedom of arts in differnet countries.

The action of the Hellenic court is more than justified.He humilatied Jesus.He could drawn him,but hell not in this way.Hellas is one of the most democratic countries in the world.Democracy means i have the right to do whatever i want on my free will,WITHOUT HURTING OF HUMILATING OTHERS.He made an abuse of this right.

"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 07:52
So, because someone is offended, we must punish the person who offended him?? yeah, thats a good idea. Soon anyone who is even remotely offended by the most trivial thing is going to be calling the police to take away the one who offended them.

Bring on the thought police!

Stalin would be so proud!

Edited by Illuminati
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 08:08
Originally posted by Spartakus

Originally posted by ulrich von hutten

it's only one year ago ,that the austrian cartoonist Gerhard Harderer  was convicted to six month prison of a court in Greece !!! the cartoon called "the life of jesus" was the reason for this example of religious totlerance in a western country. after the author foled a protest,  an appeal court  anualed the jugdment. it was the first time since 25 years the greece police confiscated books in bookstores.so much for the freedom of arts in differnet countries.

The action of the Hellenic court is more than justified.He humilatied Jesus.He could drawn him,but hell not in this way.Hellas is one of the most democratic countries in the world.Democracy means i have the right to do whatever i want on my free will,WITHOUT HURTING OF HUMILATING OTHERS.He made an abuse of this right.

A good example.

I dont see the problem here. Danish freedom of speech has generated a freedom of expression response from those group of people that were perhaps emotionally collectively hurt by the pictures, who in retaliation want to financially collectively hurt the instigatory group of people. 



Edited by TeldeIndus
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 08:09

98% of the Hellenic Population is not somebody,is it?This offense was made intenionally.Democracy demands respect.The man who abuses the right of being free, deserves to be punished.

"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 08:13
After all,nobody denied the right of drawing Jesus to our Austrian fellow because he has the right to do so,if he wants.But he overdone it.
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 08:17
If insulting a religion is offensive than lets just ban the burning of a nation's flag. After all, that is offensive to many many people. Burning a flag and the drawing of these cartoons are nothing mroe tahn political statements. So, I guess any political statement that is offensive to someone anywhere in the world, is now unacceptable.

To me, insulting Islam is no different than burning someone's flag. It's all about personal perception. So, since some people want it to be illegal to draw cartoons Mohammed, then I want it illegal to burn a flag. What makes your view of what constitutes an abuse of civil liberties more valid than mine?

making it illegal to insult a historical figure, because you feel offended is nothing short of imposing your will on other people unjustly.

So, lets follow the logic of the "your right to speech ends when it violates my right to not be offended" argument.

I can fairly say that your right to protest ends when it violates my right to freedom.

it goes both ways, and my argument is more logical and holds more weight.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 08:18
Azimuth, there are only two limitations: personal defamation/slander (eg "Mr X rapes children every night" (which he don't)*) and urging to incite physical violence (eg "Go out in the street and kill all Jews!!").




*) the imams running around spreading false rumours and pics falsely claiming they were published in Denmark are probably guilty of this.

Edited by Styrbiorn
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 08:19
Originally posted by Spartakus

 
 

The action of the Hellenic court is more than justified.He humilatied Jesus.He could drawn him,but hell not in this way.Hellas is one of the most democratic countries in the world.Democracy means i have the right to do whatever i want on my free will,WITHOUT HURTING OF HUMILATING OTHERS.He made an abuse of this right.

[/QUOTE]
i don't have any doubts that greece is democtraic country. btw ,they were the proverbial founders of democraty, but it is to consternate that although in a democratic country someone was sent to prison ,he didn't , thank god (lol) a semantic error, for doing nothing else but drawing some funny cartoons about jesus. i think he didn't hurt anyone, but don't let us make the same mistake ,many of our forumers did here. don't let us take advantage of some obscure religious opinions.let eyeryone think free, bee free and feel free including yourself.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 08:22
meanwhile, in the Arab world there are cosntant "death to america' and "death to israel" marches. That is nothing short of advocating violence and physical harm upon others. Yet, muslims are up in arms over a cartoon. something that is no physical harm to anyone.

How are muslims not being hypocritcal here???


Edited by Illuminati
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 08:32
Originally posted by Mira

Originally posted by wilpuri

I stand 100% behind the Danes on this and think its a shame JP was forced to apologize. I mean the point of this excercise was to see if Islamism as a social force had began to threaten freedom of expression, when a children's book had difficulty finding people to illustrate it because there was going to be a picture of mohammed included. That is why JP (Jyllands Posten) challenged the cartoonists of Denmark to do draw these pictures...

And the Muslim world made a fool of itself.



So this is what you teach your children about Islam?

Yes.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 08:37

If insulting a religion is offensive than lets just ban the burning of a nation's flag. After all, that is offensive to many many people. Burning a flag and the drawing of these cartoons are nothing mroe tahn political statements. So, I guess any political statement that is offensive to someone anywhere in the world, is now unacceptable.

To me, insulting Islam is no different than burning someone's flag. It's all about personal perception. So, since some people want it to be illegal to draw cartoons Mohammed, then I want it illegal to burn a flag. What makes your view of what constitutes an abuse of civil liberties more valid than mine?

making it illegal to insult a historical figure, because you feel offended is nothing short of imposing your will on other people unjustly.

So, lets follow the logic of the "your right to speech ends when it violates my right to not be offended" argument.

I can fairly say that your right to protest ends when it violates my right to freedom.

it goes both ways, and my argument is more logical and holds more weight.

Boycott  them, I dont like flag burning much. isnt this actions hate crime? what will happen If   some german burns israel flag at berlin?



Edited by Mortaza
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 08:39
Freedom has it's limits.Unlimited freedom leads to anarchy.You have the right to picture Jesus,but you also have the obligation to respect those citizens who believe to him.In other words:you want to picture him?Fine.Pinture him as long as it's not insulting.If it is insulting,then keep it for youself only,away from public view.
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--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 08:42
I find offensive that women go with head covered and men leave themselves beards. It's against all I believe in (specially the hijab). Why do I have to bear hijabs and they can't bear a cartoonist?

I am still waiting for the nudist beaches in Hedjaz ... I also want my naturist beliefs respected by Muslims.

You are insulting our intelligence with your fanatic demands. First start tolerating in your own countries and then we can discuss about what's going on in Denmark.

When there are nudist beaches in Arabia, we'll talk about the rest. When I don't have to see women humilliated by a Patriatrchal tyranny that forces them to wear a piece of cloth on their heads, then we can discuss about the rest.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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