(Scary Imams and gullable) Muslims versus Denmark (and fascists)

King

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565

Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 22:22

Originally posted by Kapikulu

Originally posted by Maju

Kapikulu: you say above that my freedom must end when it collides with yours. Well, that's not necessarily that way: my freedom of criticism may well go beyond your own barriers, my freedom of outlook may well go beyond what you consider decent...

But I'm not killing, maiming, or violating your rights in any way. I'm just expressing myself.

The rest is courtesy but courtesy doens't need to apply to art or to philosophy or to political discussion. Respeting your ideological taboos is my gift not your right. I may not want to give you that and you must respect my choice, even if you find it offensive.

Well, here can be seen the difference between two point of views.

I don't agree but I respect your point of view..

I am happy that the Danish newspaper had finally seen what is done and apologized.

I don't think they ought to apologize. I think it's those that have been making threats and ripping their shirts in the pharisean way the ones who must apologize for not being able to tolerate freedom of speech.

Look: there's been one person already killed in the Netherlands because some nuthead from planet Quranistan decided that he deserved death. I'm almost sure that another case like that will cause unbearable tension between ideological Euopeans (laicists) and ideological Arabians (Muslims). The limits have been pushed too far.

If Islam is not going to tolerate our liberties, we surely shouldn't tolerate Islam. We can't respect those that don't respect. Is it clear?

NO GOD, NO MASTER!

Maju

King

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565

Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 22:23

Originally posted by Boztorgay

Originally posted by flyingzone

I am a little surprised why no one mentions Salman Rushdie and Theo Van Gogh here ....

good point!

I think they are clearly implicit.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!

Illuminati View Drop Down

General

Joined: 08-Dec-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 949

Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 22:33

Originally posted by Maju

If Islam is not going to tolerate our liberties, we surely shouldn't tolerate Islam. We can't respect those that don't respect. Is it clear?

I think that is a very fair statement in regards to this issue. And I think that the clash between Islam and Western liberties is only going to grow.

Edited by Illuminati

arch.buff

Colonel

Joined: 18-Oct-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 606

Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 22:39

I also believe that Islamic and Western liberty issues will grow, unfortunetly.

Illuminati View Drop Down

General

Joined: 08-Dec-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 949

Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 22:45

I think that this was just the issue that drew the battle lines. Islam's views on western liberties have become clear, as have the West's views on Islam.

Atleast now we don't have hide behind politically correct statements. Atleast we can tackle the issue head on, with no beating around the Bush.

Aydin

Baron

Suspended

Joined: 13-Aug-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 481

Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 00:16

Originally posted by Illuminati

There is no law that makes it illegal to offend someone through public speech. What is this? The dark ages? We have come along way since the Catholic Church imprisoned Galileo for his publications. The West won't be taken back to that point in our history because Islam was offended. You live in a world where free speech exists in many areas. People jsut need to suck up their pride and recognize that in the West, Free-speech is more important and vital than Islam, or any religion for that matter

You can be offended if you want, but you don't have the right to take to trample civil liberties because your religion was offended. That is a right that no one has.

I fully agree if this case wasnt' more complicated.

it's not my religion so that's not why i am upset but rather i am offended since these guys are misusing freedom similarly to Nazis who deny the holocaust and try to hide behind the freedom of speech...

Illuminati View Drop Down

General

Joined: 08-Dec-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 949

Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 01:39

I don't see how allowing nazi groups to say what they want and publish what they want is abusing Freedom of Speech. To start making teh disctinction of who can and cannot exercise their rights to free speech is to cross a line that can only lead further downhill. Civil liberties are universal.

To censor a group or person's right to stage a rally, protest, or make a publication is nothing more than telling the public that they are too stupid to be able to listen to the opinions of some group. NO ONE has the right to tell the public who they can and cannot listen to.

Edited by Illuminati

ulrich von hutten View Drop Down

http://www.undp.org/rbas/ahdr/ahdr2/presskit/2_AHDR03E2_FINA L..pdf

Tsar

Court Jester

Joined: 01-Nov-2005
Location: Germany
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3638

Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 02:31

now i have to eat all the danish feta-cheese ,made out of cow-milk, and watch all the danish porn videos made in the seventies ,pooh, a lot of work for a single iclander.

azimuth

Caliph

SlaYer'S SlaYer

Joined: 12-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2979

Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 02:44

^ lol i thought you are married with a kid !

---------

anyway just wanted to make it clear that the Newspaper Did NOT apologize for publishing those drawings, it apologized that many muslims felt offended !!

not making any sense really, its like some one stabbed you saying iam sorry you were hurt !!

-----------------

Maju , is freedom of speach absolute? no limits whatsoever?

and how the country diecied when something is under "freedom of speach/press" or under things which are considered illegal?

Mira

Colonel

Joined: 03-Aug-2005
Location: United Arab Emirates
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 697

Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 02:51

Originally posted by Boztorgay

http://www.undp.org/rbas/ahdr/ahdr2/presskit/2_AHDR03E2_FINA L..pdf.

Books are scarce, so is knowledge

Arabs constitute five percent of the world population, yet they produce only one percent of the world�s books. Meagre as this output is, a much higher percentage than the world average of this production is dedicated to religious books. Religious books account for 17 percent of all books published in Arab countries, compared to a world average of about five percent. Books on social sciences, literature and the arts command a much smaller percentage. In 1996, Arab countries produced no more than 1945 literary and artistic books despite a readership of 280 million in the 22 Arab countries. This is less than what a country such as Turkey produces, with a population about one-quarter that of the Arab countries. In general, the usual print run for novels or collections of short stories ranges from 1,000 to 3,000 copies.� Authors and publishers are hard put to accommodate the whims and instructions of 22 Arab censors. As a result, books do not move easily through their natural markets,� writes Fathi Khalil al-Biss, a Vice-President of the Arab Publishers Union and a contributor to the Report. Far too often, the Arab book is treated as a banned commodity, subject to censorship and bureaucratic procedures that greatly increase costs to publishers. These laws inevitably hinder book publishing and circulation.

2002 repport:

http://www.undp.org/rbas/ahdr/ahdr1/presskit1/PR7.pdf

Overall, Arab states have lower freedom indexes and lower voice and accountability figures than sub-Saharan Africa, as can be seen in Figure 1.

http://www.undp.org/rbas/ahdr/ahdr1/presskit1/PR1.pdf

The whole Arab world translates about 300 books annually, one fifth of the number that Greece translates. The cumulative total of translated books since the Caliph Mamoun, is about 100, 000, just about the number that Spain translates in one year.>

http://www.undp.org/rbas/ahdr/ahdr1/presskit1/PR2.pdf

However, while Arabs outperform sub-Saharan Africa and South Asia in terms of human development, they rank below Latin America and the Caribbean as well as East Asia on the Human Development Index (HDI) in the Global HDR, as is seen in Figure 1.

Didn't I tell you this was NOT in the 2003 report? It's not nice to embarrass yourself. You said you read it, eh? I think you should read titles and sub-titles, too, next time.

Maju

http://nyhederne.tv2.dk/article.php?id=3572632&forside

King

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565

Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 03:03

Originally posted by azimuth

^ lol i thought you are married with a kid !

---------

anyway just wanted to make it clear that the Newspaper Did NOT apologize for publishing those drawings, it apologized that many muslims felt offended !!

not making any sense really, its like some one stabbed you saying iam sorry you were hurt !!

It makes sense: it's saying I'm sorry you are so sensitive to our rantings... please ignore us.

I think the don't need to apologize.

-----------------

Maju , is freedom of speach absolute? no limits whatsoever?

It is, unless you are willing to cross the line between words and physical violence.

It's difficult to set the limits but religious prejudices and superstitions are not going to be the reference. If you have a problem anyhow, you should go to court and present your case: not start threatening lifes of individuals and nations. That's how these kind of issues are settled in our societies.

and how the country diecied when something is under "freedom of speach/press" or under things which are considered illegal?

As I say, if you have a problem: sue them. That's what laws and tribunals are for.

But mostly I doubt that a mythological superstition will be able to force the hand of freedom of speech. It's not like if they said: "I'm going to kill you" or "you stole a million euros from XX" (and it's false) or things like that. Religious and political figures have been mocked often and it's not just that you shouldn't forbid that but that you just can't.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!

Moller

Knight

Joined: 20-Dec-2004
Location: Denmark
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 63

Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 03:46

So many posts....

Must admit I haven't read all the posts in this thread - about 50 yesterday an now more than 300.....

The latest news as they are told in the Danish medias are that Jyllands Posten excuse has reached the Arabic newspapers.

Some of them are positive after the excuse, but others are not satified yet. Arab News leader wants the Danes to change the law so that a similar case can't occur, but with the freedom of speech rigthts it will never happen...

The absolutely latest news are that the French newspaper France Soir have published the 12 drawings:

In the article it is also said that France Soir are in financial problems, so it may seem as if it is a desperate attempt to sell a lot of newspapers...

I am afraid that this will make the case even worse

A boycott of French brands now?

Mira

Colonel

Joined: 03-Aug-2005
Location: United Arab Emirates
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 697

Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 03:46

Imagine if he was still President.

Clinton Slams Cartoons, Rising Anti-Islamic Feeling

Former US president Bill Clinton condemned on Monday, January 30, 2005, the publication of cartoons depicting and ridiculing Prophet Muhammad in a Danish newspaper. He branded as "appalling" and "outrageous" the 12 cartoons, which caused an uproar in the Muslim world. Clinton also warned of rising anti-Islamic prejudice, comparing it to historic anti-Semitism. He criticized the tendency to generalize negative news of Islamic militancy.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/na/060130151546.v8vrasnt.htm l

Mira

Colonel

Joined: 03-Aug-2005
Location: United Arab Emirates
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 697

Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 03:51

Here's the latest from the Muslim world:

COPENHAGEN, January 31, 2006 (IslamOnline.net & News Agencies) � Representatives of Danish Muslims said Tuesday, January 31, they accepted the apology of a Danish newspaper for its blasphemous cartoons of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), urging more reasonable tone about Islam and Muslims and steps to stop a boycott of Danish products in the Muslim world.

"We will clearly and articulately thank the prime minister (Anders Fogh Rasmussen) and Jyllands-Posten for what they have done," Kasem Ahmad, spokesman for Denmark's Islamic Faith Community, said Tuesday, January 31, according to the Associated Press (AP).

Carsten Juste, editor-in-chief of Jyllands-Posten, apologized Monday for his daily's printed blasphemous cartoons of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

Published last September, the 12 cartoons included portrayals of the Prophet wearing a time-bomb shaped turban and showed him as a knife-wielding nomad flanked by shrouded women.

Initially passing with little comment, they were later reprinted in a Norwegian magazine, prompting an international uproar and calls for an apology from leading Muslim scholars and politicians alike.

Ending Boycott

Danish Muslims have also urged cooperation to stop an economic boycott of the Danish products in the Muslim world following the daily's apology.

"We have to work together now to establish a more reasonable tone in the debate and a good dialogue about Islam and Muslims. And then we have to work on how we can stop this boycott that is harming business in Denmark," Amhad was quoted as saying by Agence France-Presse (AFP).

Abdel Rahman Abu Laban, a prominent Muslim figure in Denmark, echoed similar calls for ending Muslim boycott of Danish products.

"We are against economic boycotts and are sincerely sorry that it has come to this. It was not our intention that Denmark should be hit by such sanctions," Abu Laban said.

Muslim countries have stepped up boycott of Danish products following the anti-prophet cartoons, with Gulf retailers pulling Danish products from their shelves.

Danish-Swedish dairy giant Arla Food, one of Europe�s largest dairy producers, has been the hardest hit by the Muslim boycott and was forced on Monday to shut down production completely in Saudi Arabia.

Arla Food sells an estimated two billion kroner (268 million euros, 328 million dollars) worth of products every year to Saudi Arabia.

Not Enough

But some Danish Muslims said the Jyllands-Posten apology was not enough, calling for more conciliatory steps over the issue.

Jihad El-Fara, President of the Muslim Council in Denmark, said he felt sorry for the losses sustained by the Danish companies over the boycott, but said the paper�s apology is not enough.

�Muslims shouldn�t be complacent about an apology,� Fara told IslamOnline.net over the phone from the Danish capital.

He said the incident should be used by Danish Muslims to press for an official representative body and for an official recognition of the Muslim faith in the European country.

�We want to be treated as equals with Christians, Jews and Sikhs, whose religions are officially recognized by the state,� he fumed, putting the unofficial number of Muslims at some 180,0000 people.

�We must have a grand mosque in the city capital with a minaret, which will serve as a center for disseminating true information on Islam and helping clear stereotypes.�

Fara admitted that Danish Muslims were not trying their best, but added that the Danish government is also to blame for disunity.

�The Belgian government, for instance, has moved recently to encourage Muslims to have an official umbrella body,� he said.

Islam is Denmark's second largest religion after the Lutheran Protestant Church, which is actively followed by four-fifths of the country's population.

Maju

King

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565

Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 04:40

It's cool: some deity, possibly Jesus or something, is telling Mohemmed:
"C'mon Mohammed, here we all have been caricaturized"

I think that some just don't have sense of humor.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!

azimuth

Caliph

SlaYer'S SlaYer

Joined: 12-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2979

Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 04:55

Originally posted by Maju

Originally posted by azimuth

^ lol i thought you are married with a kid !

---------

anyway just wanted to make it clear that the Newspaper Did NOT apologize for publishing those drawings, it apologized that many muslims felt offended !!

not making any sense really, its like some one stabbed you saying iam sorry you were hurt !!

It makes sense: it's saying I'm sorry you are so sensitive to our rantings... please ignore us.

I think the don't need to apologize.

lol why they are sorry for what people feel?? someone should be sorry for things he caused not about people's feelings,

thats why its not making any sense, and misleading, maybe the wanted to put the word "apologize" in that letter by any means to make it sounds like its an apology, while its not.

-----------------

Originally posted by maju

Maju , is freedom of speach absolute? no limits whatsoever?

no no physical violence, i just can stand on the street infront of your house (not in your property) and "flash" your kids by taking of my cloths each time they come in or out, and for more "freedom of speach/expression" practicing i would swear at you and your relatives.

so that an expression of speach and if you kicked my ass for doing so would i be able to sue you??

there are other examples of freedom of expression which does not have any physical violence if you want i'll state some more.

Originally posted by maju

and how the country diecied when something is under "freedom of speach/press" or under things which are considered illegal?

As I say, if you have a problem: sue them. That's what laws and tribunals are for.

i was asking about whats the line between legal and illegal, you insist on saying that was an expression of peach,

there are legal expression of speach and while other expression of speaches may be labeled as propaganda and encouraging violence and racisim and hatred which are illegal i guess, or not?

ulrich von hutten View Drop Down