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Boztorgay 
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 Topic: (Scary Imams and gullable) Muslims versus Denmark (and fascists)
Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 18:22 |
Originally posted by TeldeIndus
Originally posted by Illuminati
If muslims are going to boycott an entire country becuase of one paper, then I am going to call Isam the "Religion of terrorism", because after all, boycotting an entire nation because of one paper is nothing more than generalizing and stereotyping the people there becuase of the acts of a few. So, Since muslims are doing that and since a few muslims committ terrorist acts, I am going to generalize that all muslims are terrorists. |
You would of course be equally vociferous to the stereotyping of the Iraqis that died of the sanctions/boycott because of the acts of a few such as Saddam I assume? |
Sadam was killing some dozens irakis daily, some thousands annually. The "åften-dåften" . . . or what his name exactly was, never killed no one. For irakis, in terms of loss of people I doubt that with sanction and finally with the liberation, it is really worse then without, though I can be wrong.
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«Il n'y a que les imbéciles et les huitres qui adhèrent» - Paul Valéry
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TeldeIndus
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Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 18:40 |
I can't imagine an Arab leader getting away with saying Christianity instead of Islam in that statement 
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We are not without accomplishment. We have managed to distribute poverty - Nguyen Co Thatch, Vietnamese foreign minister
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Boztorgay
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Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 18:51 |
Originally posted by TeldeIndus
I can't imagine an Arab leader getting away with saying Christianity instead of Islam in that statement |
No wonder! Religions are differently seen by the both considered civilizations. Muslims still consider religion as something important for their lives, and something about real and reality. There is probably a majority of people in arab world, that believe islam is the only true religion; and that all the Koran says, is true. Some, not very few, believe even that all the (western) science could be found in Koran; well, we have to be patient with those later called to modernity . . .
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«Il n'y a que les imbéciles et les huitres qui adhèrent» - Paul Valéry
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Boztorgay
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Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 19:08 |
Something very interesting about the sad problem of muslim population of Western Europe, but unfortunately existing only in french language:
Enquête sur la montée de l'islam en Europe
par Eric Conan, Christian Makarian, L'Express du 26/01/2006
http://lexpress.fr/info/monde/dossier/islamisme/dossier.asp? ida=436706
Pendant quelques décennies, les pays européens ont cru que leurs modèles respectifs permettraient à ces populations nouvelles de trouver leur place, en pariant sur la force intégratrice de contrées pacifiées et ordonnées par le marché et l'initiative individuelle.
Aujourd'hui, la plupart des pays européens révisent cette vision optimiste en reconnaissant, de manière simultanée, avoir négligé deux phénomènes plus puissants que prévu. D'une part, l'intensité de la crise du monde musulman face à la modernité: les violents conflits internes que connaît cette religion, au bénéfice croissant des islamistes - dont des milliers de musulmans dans le monde sont les premières victimes - se propagent sur le sol européen. D'autre part, la redécouverte de la prégnance religieuse dans une Europe qui s'en était affranchie au point de ne même pas vouloir en garder trace dans le préambule de sa Constitution. L'Européen moyen qui feuillette vaguement un quotidien gratuit dans le métro, s'étonne de voir son voisin psalmodier sur le Coran avec une ferveur oubliée, y compris en Espagne ou en Italie. Les statistiques de Bruxelles confirment ce décalage religieux: plus du tiers des Européens du Nord se disent sans religion, pour 1% de ceux originaires de Turquie, et, parmi les Européens de l'Ouest croyants, 25% seulement des catholiques, juifs et protestants se déclarent pratiquants, pour 72% des musulmans.
Ce hiatus entre des sociétés sécularisées et des populations pour lesquelles le religieux reste un argument d'autorité, est devenu problématique en raison d'une particularité de l'islam: son rôle prescriptif fort. Les pratiquants stricts considèrent le Coran comme source de règles transcendant les identités nationales. Mais c'est surtout le contenu de ces prescriptions qui a fini par invalider la solution «multiculturelle» partout prônée en Europe, y compris dans la France des années 1980. Le multiculturalisme a explosé sur la question centrale et essentielle des droits des femmes et des homosexuels, qui a offert une pédagogie efficace, en montrant que le dogme du «respect des cultures», au nom de leur équivalence, entrait en conflit avec l'égalité des individus. La différence n'est pas «toujours une richesse. Importée sur le Vieux Continent, l'infériorité juridique et la relégation des femmes, qui constituent la règle dans la plupart des pays musulmans, sont de moins en moins tolérés à Francfort, à Barcelone ou à Turin. Cette prise de conscience doit beaucoup à des militantes issues de l'immigration, qui veulent s'émanciper du machisme musulman qu'elles ont senti croître en Europe ces dernières années. Triste paradoxe illustré en France: c'est non pas la Ligue des droits de l'homme, mais Fadela Amara qui s'inquiète d'une «islamisation des esprits» en constatant que, en «une dizaine d'années, les activités pour la jeunesse sont devenues des loisirs sexués au seul profit des garçons» dans ces territoires de plus en plus vastes, où les filles ont de moins en moins la liberté de se déplacer seules ou en jupe.
La première «Enquête sur les citoyens d'origine maghrébine, africaine et turque» que vient de publier le Centre d'étude de la vie politique française (Cevipof), confirme cet échec: «Qu'ils soient immigrés naturalisés, de première génération ou de deuxième génération, l'effet de l'islam sur la tolérance sexuelle ne s'atténue pas.»
Le «contrôle par les familles d'immigrés de la sexualité de leurs filles», qui résumait, pour Francis Fukuyama, la question du voile en Europe, se renforce même, comme le confirme une autre étude récente commandée par le Parti socialiste révélant une baisse du métissage provoquée par un renfermement endogamique des jeunes filles issues de l'immigration maghrébine. Ce contrôle prend parfois des tournures tragiques avec les mariages forcés ou les sacrifices archaïques des «crimes d'honneur», dont l'Allemagne a fini par s'émouvoir. La France a ainsi décidé de relever de trois ans l'âge minimal au mariage des femmes, pour lutter contre les mariages forcés. Ce qui revient, comme l'a remarqué l'Union nationale des associations familiales, à «acclimater nos traditions juridiques aux mœurs de populations nouvellement arrivées» au lieu d' «acclimater leur comportement à nos mœurs, comme le fait la loi sur les signes religieux à l'école».
Edited by Boztorgay
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«Il n'y a que les imbéciles et les huitres qui adhèrent» - Paul Valéry
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Kapikulu
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Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 19:14 |
I believe,one of the main ideas of constitutional democracy is the sentence quoted below, to give people safe and protectable rights and liberties in return for limitless but endangered and exploitable rights and liberties:
"My freedom ends when it collides with another person's freedom"
Boycott is a too major and exaggerated reaction for such a dumb cartoon.
But I don't understand the mentality.I really can't understand people here who sees even disrespect and blasphemy as a part of freedom of press and right to declare ideas...
This freedom should end wherever it collides with mine.
If you get punished for swearing somebody and his personal character or privileges, you should get the same for swearing a belief that a billion people in this world has, whatever the country is...So, the attitude here shown, the supportive attitude of government, is wrong here. Denmark under Rasmussen has a dirty dossier on this anyway, they also took similar reactions before in another incident which caused 11 ambassadors of Islamic nations to send a note to the government, and by hosting the Roj TV, PKK's, an internationally recognized terrorist organization's official broadcasting organ.
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We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;
A Strange Orhan Veli
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Boztorgay
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Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 19:20 |
Originally posted by Kapikulu
I believe,one of the main ideas of constitutional democracy is the sentence quoted below, to give people safe and protectable rights and liberties in return for limitless but endangered and exploitable rights and liberties:
"My freedom ends when it collides with another person's freedom"
Boycott is a too major and exaggerated reaction for such a dumb cartoon.
But I don't understand the mentality.I really can't understand people here who sees even disrespect and blasphemy as a part of freedom of press and right to declare ideas...
This freedom should end wherever it collides with mine.
If you get punished for swearing somebody and his personal character or privileges, you should get the same for swearing a belief that a billion people in this world has, whatever the country is...So, the attitude here shown, the supportive attitude of government, is wrong here. Denmark under Rasmussen has a dirty dossier on this anyway, they also took similar reactions before in another incident which caused 11 ambassadors of Islamic nations to send a note to the government, and by hosting the Roj TV, PKK's, an internationally recognized terrorist organization's official broadcasting organ. |
A person is a person, a religion is a religion. A person could claim the right to his dignity, a religion is just a set of ideas that claim nothing by themselves, in terms of "personal rights". There is no valid concept of "blasphemy". Your religious rights (the right to profess, practice your religion) is in no way restrained by the right of others to think, or express, thier views about your religion.
And concerning PKK: the moment this org. will cease the policy of terror, the cause of kurdish people unavoidably will be accepted as valid by eu and us, even though their interests keep them away from involvement; if bosniac have the right to secession, the kurds, from all arab, persian and turkic countries they have too.
Edited by Boztorgay
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«Il n'y a que les imbéciles et les huitres qui adhèrent» - Paul Valéry
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Kapikulu
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Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 19:30 |
Originally posted by Boztorgay
And concerning PKK: the moment this org. will cease the policy of terror, the cause of kurdish people unavoidably will be accepted as valid by eu and us, even though their interests keep them away from involvement; if bosniac have the right to secession, the kurds, from all arab, persian and turkic countries they have too.
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Are you the leader of PKK or something like that?
Here, everyday, Turkish soldiers die because of PKK terrorism...It had caused around 6000 Turkish soldiers deaths' plus around the same number of innocent civilians.No signs are shown about ceasing this policy of terror...PKK is a terrorist organization and it is recognized so internationally
Anyway, let's not move out of the main subject. I just gave that as an example. .
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We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;
A Strange Orhan Veli
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Boztorgay
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Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 19:51 |
Originally posted by Kapikulu
Originally posted by Boztorgay
And concerning PKK: the moment this org. will cease the policy of terror, the cause of kurdish people unavoidably will be accepted as valid by eu and us, even though their interests keep them away from involvement; if bosniac have the right to secession, the kurds, from all arab, persian and turkic countries they have too.
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Are you the leader of PKK or something like that?
Here, everyday, Turkish soldiers die because of PKK terrorism...It had caused around 6000 Turkish soldiers deaths' plus around the same number of innocent civilians.No signs are shown about ceasing this policy of terror...PKK is a terrorist organization and it is recognized so internationally
Anyway, let's not move out of the main subject. I just gave that as an example. .
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It's sad that people die. If Turkey offered long time ago the necessary rights for the members of the kurdish minority, probably the things have been different today. But Turkey was a sort of dictatorship, where the freedoms were very scarce. I don't blame the turkish people for that. There are many factors involved . . . . In fact, Turkey is probably the most human rights friendly coutry in muslim world, though they still have a lot to do. Education rights, linguistic rights, self-administration, that is what Turkey and all others will have to do in the future in order to preserve unity. And even with all that done, we can not be sure avoidong this tendency of men to separate from the other for any reason they get . . . The same kind of needs apply to Russia and it's minorities too. I guess you dropped any atempt to support the bizarre idea of "blasphemy", so . . . .
Edited by Boztorgay
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«Il n'y a que les imbéciles et les huitres qui adhèrent» - Paul Valéry
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Kapikulu
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Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 20:50 |
Originally posted by Boztorgay
Originally posted by Kapikulu
Originally posted by Boztorgay
And concerning PKK: the moment this org. will cease the policy of terror, the cause of kurdish people unavoidably will be accepted as valid by eu and us, even though their interests keep them away from involvement; if bosniac have the right to secession, the kurds, from all arab, persian and turkic countries they have too.
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Are you the leader of PKK or something like that?
Here, everyday, Turkish soldiers die because of PKK terrorism...It had caused around 6000 Turkish soldiers deaths' plus around the same number of innocent civilians.No signs are shown about ceasing this policy of terror...PKK is a terrorist organization and it is recognized so internationally
Anyway, let's not move out of the main subject. I just gave that as an example. .
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It's sad that people die. If Turkey offered long time ago the necessary rights for the members of the kurdish minority, probably the things have been different today. But Turkey was a sort of dictatorship, where the freedoms were very scarce. I don't blame the turkish people for that. There are many factors involved . . . . In fact, Turkey is probably the most human rights friendly coutry in muslim world, though they still have a lot to do. Education rights, linguistic rights, self-administration, that is what Turkey and all others will have to do in the future in order to preserve unity. And even with all that done, we can not be sure avoidong this tendency of men to separate from the other for any reason they get . . . The same kind of needs apply to Russia and it's minorities too. I guess you dropped any atempt to support the bizarre idea of "blasphemy", so . . . .
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I didn't continue to discuss about blasphemy because I believe we wouldn't be able to reach a consensus about this issue.Your idea is yours, mine is mine.
I told I didn't want to swerve from the original subject of discussion, but you are continuing with it, but I won't, with someone who is defining a parliamentary democracy as a "sort of dictatorship".
Now, if I turn back to the original topic subject,
About the religions, criticism and insult are two different things, and this becomes very fragile when it comes to things people see as "holy".
I have never seen any cartoons in a Turkish newspaper humiliating Christianity, and I don't want to see such a humiliating cartoon about Islam in a Danish newspaper.
If everyone does such insults to each other under the umbrella of "great(!)" Western concept of freedom of press to do everything, then what happens to humanic concept of respecting each other?
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We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;
A Strange Orhan Veli
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Maju
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Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 21:02 |
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Kapikulu: you say above that my freedom must end when it collides with
yours. Well, that's not necessarily that way: my freedom of criticism
may well go beyond your own barriers, my freedom of outlook may well go
beyond what you consider decent...
But I'm not killing, maiming, or violating your rights in any way. I'm just expressing myself.
The rest is courtesy but courtesy doens't need to apply to art or to
philosophy or to political discussion. Respeting your ideological
taboos is my gift not your right. I may not want to give you that and
you must respect my choice, even if you find it offensive.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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flyingzone
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Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 21:07 |
Danish Muslims Accept Cartoon Apology
By JAN M. OLSEN, Associated Press Writer Tue Jan 31, 5:38 PM ET
A Danish Muslim group Tuesday accepted an apology from a newspaper that published offensive cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad but said later that it had decided the statement was ambiguous.
The group did not elaborate and it was unclear if there would be any effect on protests and boycotts of Danish goods in Muslim countries.
The offices of the newspaper Jyllands-Posten were briefly evacuated Tuesday evening after an English-speaking person called in a bomb threat to the switchboard, and an Internet statement purportedly from insurgents in Iraq urged attacks in Denmark and Norway, the first known call for violent reprisals over the cartoons.
The authenticity of the Internet posting in the name of the Mujahedeen Army, which claimed to have shot down a U.S. helicopter in Iraq earlier this month, could not be independently verified.
Jyllands-Posten published 12 cartoons in September after asking artists to depict Islam's prophet in what was described as a test of self-censorship. The depictions included incendiary images such as Muhammad wearing a turban shaped as a bomb with a burning fuse.
A Norwegian newspaper reprinted the images this month.
In a statement published late Monday, Jyllands-Posten apologized and said it regretted offending Muslims. It stood by the decision to print the cartoons, saying it was within Danish law.
The drawings "were not intended to be offensive, nor were they at variance with Danish law, but they have indisputably offended many Muslims for which we apologize," the daily said Monday.
Danish Muslims said Tuesday that they welcomed the apology. However, 27 Muslim groups met later in the day to discuss the statement and declared it "ambiguous."
"We lack a clear statement where the newspaper apologizes for the offense and stand by it," said Ahmed Akkari, a spokesman for the groups.
The Danish Muslims thanked Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen for saying Monday evening that his government could not apologize on behalf of a newspaper, but that he personally "never would have depicted Muhammad, Jesus or any other religious character in a way that could offend other people."
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Associated Press writer Omar Sinan in Cairo, Egypt contributed to this report.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060131/ap_on_re_eu/denmark_prop het_drawings
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Kapikulu
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Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 21:14 |
Originally posted by Maju
Kapikulu: you say above that my freedom must end when it collides with yours. Well, that's not necessarily that way: my freedom of criticism may well go beyond your own barriers, my freedom of outlook may well go beyond what you consider decent...
But I'm not killing, maiming, or violating your rights in any way. I'm just expressing myself.
The rest is courtesy but courtesy doens't need to apply to art or to philosophy or to political discussion. Respeting your ideological taboos is my gift not your right. I may not want to give you that and you must respect my choice, even if you find it offensive.
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Well, here can be seen the difference between two point of views.
I don't agree but I respect your point of view..
I am happy that the Danish newspaper had finally seen what is done and apologized.
Edited by Kapikulu
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We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;
A Strange Orhan Veli
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arch.buff
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Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 21:21 |
Ok, I have to admit i didnt read all of what was said at this thread. I read the other thread that was closed and I was directed here.
Let me first start off by apologizing to all muslims on this forum. These cartoons are in very much bad taste and I also oppose them as well. But thats as far as it goes because I also recognize an amendment that protects free speech. I am a christian and I also oppose pictures and cartoons of Jesus set out negatively. But I have learned to live with it, be it that I live in America I kinda have to. And more than that I dont really mind for the simple fact that these people(while in bad taste) are expressing themselves and i wouldnt have it any other way, because the same law that protects their views(which i may not agree with) also protects mine. So I guess I agree with maju in the aspect that its free-speech, albeit in bad taste, all the less.......free-speech. It is a lil alarming tho that muslims seem to defend their views so swiftly. The Islamic world has a strong following and has a good strong solid foundation that it holds to(at least thats what I gather from the muslim forumers here), so why the worry? They arent weakening your faith are they? This is the way I approach it when dealing with christian critics. But there should be one thing that is very clear here- Civil liberties should not conform or be in any way weakened.
Edited by arch.buff
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Illuminati
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Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 21:33 |
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There is NO freedom against being offended. Muslims do NOT have the right to not have their religion offended.
Potentially, any public statement is going to be offensive to someone. The whole argument about having the freedom to not be insulted is based on ignorance. If muslims can't accept that tehy do not ahve the freedom to not be insulted, then Islam is truly incompatible with freedom and the West
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arch.buff
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Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 21:39 |
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This maybe where the Islamic world and the freedom-pro Wests' ideas clash. Muslims have to understand that these peoples' expressions arent coming from other muslims where by that the offender can be punished for blasphemy, its non-muslims that have the right to express their views so it maybe one of a control issue.
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Aydin
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Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 21:50 |
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believe many would be highly insulted especially in the US if jewish or christian icons were ridiculed. the papers must consider this when publishing such controversial caricatures. freedom of speech is highly valuable but so is the masses religious beliefs and they must be very cautious in our unfortunate era where extremism on both ends are on the rise. Personally i as many of you already know don’t get upset about such things, but i do get upset when western media is using the recent tensions to increase its sales or get free marketing. And you guys are wrong if you think its just about freedom of speech, there is an obvious message behind such caricatures. One of the magazines that published these drawings is an christian organization which supports Israel and Jewish state (which i also support) but the magazine has an obvious grudge against islam and always publishes articles against islam, its practices etc. basically its marketing Christianity as a better byproduct and that’s what i condemn. And now such magazine is hiding behind the “freedom of speech”.
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Kapikulu
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Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 21:57 |
Originally posted by arch.buff
This maybe where the Islamic world and the freedom-pro Wests' ideas clash. Muslims have to understand that these peoples' expressions arent coming from other muslims where by that the offender can be punished for blasphemy, its non-muslims that have the right to express their views so it maybe one of a control issue. |
I believe this is rather the clash of mentalities of two different worlds..The raising style,the thinking system, the ethics,the values, all are different...
For example, Maju believes that the freedom to express whatever you think is no problem, while I believe it is OK, but it shall be done in terms of respect.
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We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;
A Strange Orhan Veli
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Kapikulu
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Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 22:00 |
Originally posted by Illuminati
There is NO freedom against being offended. Muslims do NOT have the right to not have their religion offended.
Potentially, any public statement is going to be offensive to someone. The whole argument about having the freedom to not be insulted is based on ignorance. If muslims can't accept that tehy do not ahve the freedom to not be insulted, then Islam is truly incompatible with freedom and the West
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Well, you are not the one to determine my rights. If you support that the newspaper has the right to offend Islam, I would have the right to defend my religion and it is the person him/herself who decides if he/she is offended or not.
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We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;
A Strange Orhan Veli
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Boztorgay
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Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 22:04 |
Originally posted by Aydin
believe many would be highly insulted especially in the US if jewish or christian icons were ridiculed. the papers must consider this when publishing such controversial caricatures. |
Mark Steyn: Can good Muslims be good multiculturalists?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/851306/posts
What normally happens with "controversial" art? I'm thinking of such cultural landmarks of recent years as Andres Serrano's Piss Christ -- a crucifix sunk in the artist's urine -- or Terrence McNally's Broadway play Corpus Christi, in which a gay Jesus is liberated by the joys of anal sex with Judas. When, say, Catholic groups complain about these abominations, the arts world says you squares need to get with the beat: A healthy society has to have "artists" with the "courage" to "explore" "transgressive" "ideas," etc. Yet with this play, faced with Muslim objections, the big courageous transgressive arts guys fold like a Bedouin tent. And, unlike your Piss Christs, where every liberal commentator wants to chip in his two-bits on artistic freedom, pretty much everyone's given a wide berth to this one, except for Christopher Caldwell, whom The Weekly Standard sent to Cincinnati to interview the various figures involved. What was interesting from Caldwell's account was that the Muslim community figures didn't really care in the end whether the play was pro- or anti-Islam: For them, it was beyond discussion.
| freedom of speech is highly valuable but so is the masses religious beliefs and they must be very cautious in our unfortunate era where extremism on both ends are on the rise. |
that's blackmailing: you are manacing us with your insane guys??? Complying to such a logic, we prepare future's slavery.
| Personally i as many of you already know don’t get upset about such things, but i do get upset when western media is using the recent tensions to increase its sales or get free marketing. And you guys are wrong if you think its just about freedom of speech, there is an obvious message behind such caricatures. One of the magazines that published these drawings is an christian organization which supports Israel and Jewish state (which i also support) but the magazine has an obvious grudge against islam and always publishes articles against islam, its practices etc. basically its marketing Christianity as a better byproduct and that’s what i condemn. And now such magazine is hiding behind the “freedom of speech”. |
So what? They don't infringe any law, as you accept, SO??
Edited by Boztorgay
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«Il n'y a que les imbéciles et les huitres qui adhèrent» - Paul Valéry
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arch.buff
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Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 22:06 |
Originally posted by Aydin
believe many would be highly insulted especially in the US if jewish or christian icons were ridiculed. the papers must consider this when publishing such controversial caricatures. freedom of speech is highly valuable but so is the masses religious beliefs and they must be very cautious in our unfortunate era where extremism on both ends are on the rise. Personally i as many of you already know don’t get upset about such things, but i do get upset when western media is using the recent tensions to increase its sales or get free marketing. And you guys are wrong if you think its just about freedom of speech, there is an obvious message behind such caricatures. One of the magazines that published these drawings is an christian organization which supports Israel and Jewish state (which i also support) but the magazine has an obvious grudge against islam and always publishes articles against islam, its practices etc. basically its marketing Christianity as a better byproduct and that’s what i condemn. And now such magazine is hiding behind the “freedom of speech”. |
So what youre saying is that this particular organization has an agenda? Well dont we all? Be it our views being expressed etc...
I also dont agree with the message but again we have to honor the free-speech law, Im telling you there is no other way about it. We all just have to be mature and try and respect others views and opinions. Thats just the way it is. The tongue, a powerful weapon.
Edited by arch.buff
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(Scary Imams and gullable) Muslims versus Denmark (and fascists)
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