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Topic ClosedTurks in Bulgaria (Flame-War Warning)

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Neoptolemos View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Turks in Bulgaria (Flame-War Warning)
    Posted: 14-May-2006 at 03:47
Originally posted by bg_turk

I know Ilhan Ahmet is in parliament, is there anybody else?

Currently there is only him. In the last Parliament there were four IIRC.

I will take my words back when it does get built. You have a tough job pursuading the Orthodox Chruch that a mosque should be build under "the shadow of the Parthenon", I wish you all the good luck!

There is a different between "the Greek State is not building a Mosque" and "doesn't allow muslims to build a mosque" as you stated before. Fresh news for you: "Education and Religion Minister Marietta Giannakou said yesterday that the ministry has not received any official requests for the construction of a mosque in Athens. The Greek government considers itself obligated to provide Muslims in the capital with an area for prayer, she said. According to Giannakou, the ministry recently approved an outdoor mosque for the northern city of Komotini."

Moreover, not only the Church has recognised the need of a new Mosque to be built in Athens, but even if they wouldn't agree it's not up to them to decide whether a mosque is going to be built or no.

2. Read Article 13 of the Greek Constitution.

I read the preamble.

Why don't you read Article 13? Because it doesn't fit your theory?

By the way the intention of this thread was not criticism of Greece, so please refrain from provocative Turkish-Greek mud throwing. I really do not want this thread to be closed for insulting greekness by Yiannis, so please discuss the outstanding turkish-greek issues in the neighbouring thread.


Are you kidding me? Where did you see "provocative Turkish-Greek mud throwing" from me? I wrote nothing about Turkey, let alone being provocative or throwing mud 

Finally, I ask Yiannis, or any other mod for that matter, to better delete my post rather than close this thread because of me posting off-topic.



Edited by Neoptolemos
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 09:15
Originally posted by Neoptolemos


Are you kidding me? Where did you see "provocative Turkish-Greek mud throwing" from me? I wrote nothing about Turkey, let alone being provocative or throwing mud 

Finally, I ask Yiannis, or any other mod for that matter, to better delete my post rather than close this thread because of me posting off-topic.

No your posts are fine, dont delete them. I meant the guys before you.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2006 at 21:15

Todor Jivkov, the evil mind behind the mistreatment against Turks in Bulgaria..

Bulgarian folk has nothing to do with it, it is only the violence of another oppressing regime and its ruthless dictators whom at the end found their punishment.
We gave up your happiness
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we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2006 at 09:33

3 million Turks died in the Balkans?

If this is true I find it shocking that it recieves hardly any attention, its a huge number the suffering must have been immense.

About the Bulgarian-Turco issues I don't get it, Bulgars originally ie the name and original people called Bulgar's are Turkic in origin and today there are Muslim Turks and Christian Bulgars whose nation's decent is Turkic living in Bulgaria.

If they had some smart polliticians they could so easily use this to their advantage and create a harmony if they embraced their history instead of trying to create an alternative one.

I mean both in essence are or have a connection to being Turkic so you may aswell get it all out of the closet, even the name "Balkan" if Im not mistaken is a Turkic word.

You should wake up guys, embrace your past, you are what you are Wink

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2006 at 09:46
Originally posted by Bulldog

About the Bulgarian-Turco issues I don't get it, Bulgars originally ie the name and original people called Bulgar's are Turkic in origin and today there are Muslim Turks and Christian Bulgars whose nation's decent is Turkic living in Bulgaria.

If they had some smart polliticians they could so easily use this to their advantage and create a harmony if they embraced their history instead of trying to create an alternative one.

Many Bulgarians would dispute that the Bulgars were actually turkic, some Bulgarians hold the view that they were rather an iranic people. Nonetheless, even if Bulgars were a Turkic tribe, there remains nothing of them today, they were assimilated by the Slavs and nothing of the original turkic culture and language has survived. The Turkish Muslims in Bulgaria are not related to the original Bulgarians apart from the a distinct link maybe, we are more closely related to the Ottomans whom Bulgarians view in a very  bad light.
 
Also the issue is not as simple as Christian Bulgars and Muslim Turks - there are Muslim Bulgars - the Pomaks and Christian Turks - the Gagauz as well, though they are tiny minorities.
 
By the way your idea of uniting the Bulgar nation around the idea of its Turkic origin is great in my opinion.Wink
 
But somehow I think Bulgarians will cry foul of it.  Cry


Edited by bg_turk - 19-May-2006 at 09:47
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2006 at 10:49
Bulldog, you have no knowledge of Balkan history what so ever. It's funny how the West always meddles in Balkan affairs and only makes things worse.
As for the 3 million casualties - don't bother moarning them, it's just another immense exaggeration.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2006 at 10:55
Bulldog, regarding the history of the creation of the Bulgarion nation there is an excellent paper titled
 
BULGARO-TURKISH ENCOUNTERS AND THE RE-IMAGING OF THE BULGARIAN NATION (1878-1995)
 
By: Neuburger, Mary, East European Quarterly, 00128449, Mar1997, Vol. 31, Issue 1
You may find the following section very interesting. After 1878 Bulgarian identity has been manufactured in constant opposition to the Turkish one:
 

Defining the place of Bulgaria's Turkish minority within the national body politic has been one of the invariable features of the multiple projects of modernity that punctuate Bulgaria's history. All of the primary political turning points in Bulgarian history - quasi-independence from the Ottoman Empire in 1878, the dawning of the communist era in 1944, and the post-communist period beginning in 1989 -have required a re-positioning of Bulgarian national, cultural and political postures on the so-called "Turkish question." The emergent approaches to the manufacturing of Bulgarian modernity have sought to define or redefine the Bulgarian political nation through the drawing (or redrawing) of ethno-cultural boundaries between Bulgarian and Turk. This highly complex and contested process of Bulgarian nation building has generally been conceptualized in the literature as an essentially "Balkan" anti-Turkish campaign based on the fruition and expression of ancient enmities between Bulgarian and Turk. However, although this process did result in a violent ethnic-untangling of Turk from Bulgarian its impetus was not the a priori existence of local hatred between Bulgarian and Turk. Ironically, these purportedly ancient Balkan enmities were constructed within the Bulgarian nationalist elite's appropriation of inherently ambiguous Western Enlightenment and post-Enlightenment concepts of nationhood.

As Michael Herzfeld points out, there is a common illusory distinction made between Western European "rational" nationalisms based on a social contract and the kinship based associations of "primitive" Eastern societies. Contrary to such an illusion, Herzfeld asserts that by the nineteenth century, blood would "become the elixir that would convert local social relations into national culture,"1 remaining the key metaphor for Western European and other nationalisms. This prevalent "highly sacralized rhetoric of blood" has readily interfaced with other prevalent social and political philosophies taking on a variety of ambiguous forms and supplying sharpened tools of nation building.

Throughout Bulgarian history blood metaphors have played an important role in the rhetoric of Bulgarian nationalism and its fashioning of the Turkish "other," readily melding with - and in fact emerging from -prevalent European models of social and political organization. Throughout this process the confrontation between Bulgarian and Turk has crescendoed as the momentum of nation building has accelerated with the tools and technology of twentieth century state-craft. Yet the powerful metaphors that color Bulgarian anti-Turkish nationalism, do not reflect an essential Balkan backwardness in contrast to European "rationalism," on the contrary the Bulgaro-Turkish relationship is a product of the tools and themes of modernity, and as such of European constructed dichotomies of national self and other. The Bulgaro-Turkish relationship evolved in the shadow of both the apparent clarity and the inherent contradictions of the theories and practices of modernity. As such the Bulgarian project of sorting the national "self' from the Turkish "other" within defies simple formulae, instead revealing a complex and contested pursuit for national unity among the mire of Balkan cultural complexity.

CLARIFYING CONTRADICTIONS

Common views of Bulgarian nationalism since 1878 as "virtually equated with anti-Turkish sentiment,"2 belie the complexity of both the elite project of the cultural construction of the Bulgarian nation and inter-ethnic relations on the local level. Historically, contradictory sentiments of intimacy and violence, enmity and affinity towards local Turks as both native and stranger have colored Bulgarian nationalist vacillation between a degree of acceptance and a total rejection of the Turkish presence in Bulgarian social body. In the pre-independence and subsequent imperial period, Bulgarian monarchs, nationalists, and bureaucrats were engaged in an ongoing dialogue of national self definition, in which European conceptual tools were employed in defining the parameters of the modern Bulgarian nation on the foundations of theoretical "enlightened" toleration.

Significantly, Russian and West European nation-state building tools came with ample conceptual baggage, namely the assumed superiority of Europe and the Christian World over the "Oriental Barbarism" of the Bulgarian Ottoman past. When William Gladstone, a prominent 19th century British Prime Minister, raised British public indignation over the "Turkish atrocities" against Bulgarians in the 1877 April Uprising, images of the "Turkish infidel" lording over European Christians captured the Bulgarian national imagination.3 Yet, as Marin Pundeff points out, a wide array of European intellectual products, including Orientalism, came to Bulgaria via Russia, intertwined with the prevalent myth of the Russian Christian protector "Diado Ivan" (Grandpa Ivan) as liberator from the Ottoman overlords.4 Pan-Slavic visions of liberating Orthodox brethren from the Turkish yoke permeate Russian portrayals of the episodes of the decisive 1877-78 Russo-Turkish war, "a mission before the Tsar and God - the struggle with Islam."5

In post-liberation Bulgarian politics Russian meddling had to share the stage with Western European intrigues and the rise of independent minded local elites in this formative period for Bulgarian national consciousness. The newly "elected" king of Bulgaria, Alexander of Battenburg, reigned under the mandate of a European inspired "liberal" constitution. Battenburg's famous proclamation "I shall love all of my subjects, regardless of their creed," and his obstinacy against Russian pressures to revoke constitutional rights for minorities were reflected in the large scale cultural and social autonomy granted to the local Turkish minority.6 In fact, the intrusion of Imperial Russia in Bulgarian politics later in this period provoked respected Bulgarian national revolutionary and statesman, Stefan Stambulov, to pursue a decidedly pro-Turkish policy and even propose a political union with the Ottomans with the Sultan as Bulgarian Tsar.7

In spite of this potential for a Bulgaro-Turkish rapprochement, this period was marked by the creation of a national myth which intersected with powerful Russian and to some extent West European images of "liberation" from the "Turkish yoke." Virulent anti-Turkishness seemed to pervade 19th century Bulgarian cultural efforts, as illustrated by the seminal work of "the father of Bulgarian literature" Ivan Vazov with his famous novel Pod Igoto (Under the Yoke). But it is worth noting that competing positive literary images of the Turk gained lasting popular admiration in Iordan Iovkov's Legends of Stara Planina.8 Furthermore, Aleko Konstantinov's creation of the popularized archetype of Bulgarian "backwardness" in his character, Bai Ganyu, was indicative of a deeper identification with the "oriental" within the Bulgarian national self.9 These literary projects were mirrored in ethnographic projects with even greater significance for Bulgarian nationalist claims and practices.

The quest for defining the Bulgarian national self was part and parcel of territorial claims which dominated Bulgarian politics until the conclusive "second national catastrophe" following World War II. Like other fledgling Balkan nations and their Great Power patrons, Bulgaria initiated highly politicized ethnographic projects which drew "scientific" conclusions about the populations within and outside its borders. Certainly, proving the "Bulgarian-ness" of Macedonian Slavs was most central to the Bulgarian imagined ethnographic map of the Balkans. Yet this project intimately involved the Muslim populations of the "Bulgarian lands." In the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, Supported by the Imperial Russian Academy of Sciences, Stoyu Shishkov embarked on a in depth study of the so-called "Pomaks" - Slavic-speaking Muslims of Southern Bulgaria. Shishkov, in his pioneering ethnographic study of the scattered Pomak villages of "Southern Bulgaria," posited and scientifically "proved" the "Bulgarian-ness" of this partially "Turkified" and "Islamicized" group. According to Shishkov, the geographically contiguous "Turks" were also the product of "Ottoman assimilation politics" but had perhaps irretrievably lost their Bulgarian heritage. In contrast, the Pomaks "who spoke the most pure dialect of old-Slavic" were Bulgarians in the "purest" sense and because they were scattered throughout Macedonia and Thrace bolstered Bulgarian claims to these territories.[l0] The implied ancestral "Bulgarian-ness" of both Pomaks and Turks did much to complicate the Bulgarian nationalist projects to follow as the Muslim minorities within became unruly symbols of both victims of Ottoman oppression and perpetrator of historical crimes.

Thus, the nineteenth and early twentieth century Bulgarian national imagination was by no means an anti-Turkish monolith in theory or practice. Acceptance, rejection, tolerance, and intolerance coexisted and competed for a place in evolving Bulgarian sentiments and the imperatives of national modernization projects. In the subsequent Communist period, the theoretical and practical project of nation-building was embarked upon with the fickle but uncompromising tools of nation building, imparted by the Soviet Union.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2006 at 11:11
Originally posted by the Bulgarian

Bulldog, you have no knowledge of Balkan history what so ever. It's funny how the West always meddles in Balkan affairs and only makes things worse.
 
Yeah, right! This from someone who claims that not a single Turkish civilian died during the 1877-78 war between Russia and Ottomans. Maybe if you take your Bulgarian nationalist glasses off you may see things a little bit differently.
 
By the way you are right that the West makes matters in the Balkans worst ;-)
 
As for the 3 million casualties - don't bother moarning them, it's just another immense exaggeration.
 
The total number of Turkish casualties betwen the Greek war of liberation and the end of WWI is 5.5 million dead and equally as many refugees from all over the empires, and I provided you the sources for this before. I will do it for the 100th time
 
Today every second non-kurdish citizen of Turkey originates from the Balkans, Crimea or Cacasus.


Edited by bg_turk - 19-May-2006 at 11:12
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2006 at 11:16
Bulgarian
Bulldog, you have no knowledge of Balkan history what so ever. It's funny how the West always meddles in Balkan affairs and only makes things worse.
As for the 3 million casualties - don't bother moarning them
 
DON'T MOURN THEM!!!!?Shocked Really, are they somenow not human, killing 3 million of them is perfectlly fine but when its the other way round oh that's a different story, put on the water works were going to make the whole world cry along with us.......
 
Sorry but this sense of deep double standards and hypocrasy won't got you anywhere, it just make's you look real bad.
 
So was I wrong when I stated, Balkan is a Turkic word?
 
That the Original Bulgar's are or Turkic descent?
 
It seem's you don't like accepting your history.
 
About the meddling West, we've been very succesfull as were the one's who loved to see you slaviscised, thinking your Slavs, hating the fact the origins of the Bulgars are Turkic and dividing the people of Bulgaria and the Balkans.
 
So its hilarious you talking about the meddling West when your a living example of the "Frankenstein" we created.
 
My comment about a new pollitical outlook is very logical for national unity.   Guess what the "Slavs" don't care about you, Yugo-South Slavia doesn't exist anymore and the Russian's arnt going to ever protect or try and help you in any crisis so its better that you wake up.
 
There is a huge Turkish minority population which is growing in Bulgaria, disancing them and making them feel "different" and non-Bulgarian is self-destructive.
 
What is wrong with a new revolutionary outlook, create a united Turkic sense of roots and belonging, play on the old Bulgar kings and the trip from Central Asia to Bulgaria etc etc etc
 
That's the problem with stubborn B-rate polliticians, they have no-foresight and can't adapt/turn the table's on the problems causing a problem.
 
Put your bigotry, whatever you've been brainwashed with aside and open your eyes to this logical move.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2006 at 11:33

The followingn extract from

Bulgarias Turks in the 1980s: a minority endangered

by VICTOR D. BOJKOV

published in

Journal of Genocide Research (2004), 6(3),

September, 343369

also gives important insights into the attitude  of the Bulgarian authorities towards the Turks on its territories:

In 1878 Bulgaria contained a sizeable Muslim minority amounting to around 23% of the total population (Stoyanov, 1993, p 193). In the next 60 years, there were no attempts at either integration or assimilation. The government pursued a policy of hegemonic control, which maintained the political and economic supremacy of the Bulgarian ethnicity and kept the Bulgarian Turks in a subordinate position. Education in Turkish language was tolerated in the form of private primary and secondary schools but received no financial support from the state, which ensured that the educational level of the Turkish minority stays low and did not challenge the ethnic Bulgarian dominance. Similarly, religious freedom was allowed, even encouraged, aimed at preventing the Muslim population from integrating into secular society (Dimitrov, 2000, p 4). The future of the Muslim minority was envisaged by state authorities mainly in terms of emigration to Turkey (Eminov, 1999, p 31). As late as 1934, less than 20% of the Turkish male population over the age of seven could read and write Bulgarian, as opposed to nearly 80% of the Bulgarians. In terms of illiteracy, the Turks and the Roma were the worse off among the other minority populations (Mishkova, 1994, p 86). Opportunities were clearly not equal accounting for a steady flow of migrants to Turkey throughout the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries (Stoyanov, 1993, pp 197, 204).

Major factors that decreased the Muslim population were the two big wars in the region. The Russo-Turkish War of 1878 and the Balkan Wars of 19121913 became important causes of massive mortality and forced migration.7 Of the Muslim population in Bulgaria between 1876 and 1882, it is estimated that 262,000 died and 515,000 became refugees who never returned to their homes (McCarthy, 1995, pp 8891). By the end of the Balkan Wars in 1913 the majority of the Muslims of the Ottoman Balkans had been either killed or exiled (see Table 1 for population statistics). The Muslim population of the Ottoman territories conquered by Bulgaria dropped from 328,000 in 1911 to 179,000 in 1914, again a nearly double decrease owing to death and exile (McCarthy, 2000, p 37). Up to 1912 Bulgaria itself received as much as 250,000 refugees of Bulgarian ethnic origin who were forced to leave their homes in other territories (Stola, 1992, p 328).

At the beginning of the twentieth century the Bulgarian government started to adopt various assimilationist policies in addition to forcing people out of the  country. Pomaks8 were the first target in the 1910s and 1920s and quite often thereafter. The fact that they spoke Bulgarian but confessed Islam sustained the claim that they were religious converts. This claim provided the justification to convert those who survived the wars and stayed in Bulgaria "back" to Orthodox  Christianity. To further the policy of nationalistic assimilation in the 1930s, a campaign was undertaken to replace the minoritys Turco-Arabic names with ethnic Bulgarian ones (Dimitrov, 2000, p 7). The practice of renaming and forcibly christening newborn children was subsequently abandoned and resumed again in 1942.



Edited by bg_turk - 19-May-2006 at 11:35
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2006 at 11:52
The same source describes the Revival process, in which over a million Turks were forced to change their names, and more than 300,000 were forced out as a "quasi-genocide":
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2006 at 12:40
I didn't bother reading a few pages back and thought that bg_turk was talking about 3 million Turks being killed in 1877-1878 and that's why I said it was a big exaggeration. Now I've seen what we're talking about and I acknowledge that 3 million Turks died in WWІ. My bad.Smile
I'm perfectly happy with the Bulgars' origin, what ever it was - Turkic, Iranic, etc.
In another section of the forum I wrote the following:
 
I don't know why blue and Bulgarian Soldja insist so much on not having anything to do with the Volga Bulgars as if they were ashamed of it. What's the matter with you two, they are owr relatives, grandsons and granddaughters of owr own grandfathers - the Bulgars. Which clearly makes them family, well at least genetically. On the other hand we haven't interacted with them for 1300 years and owr cultures are totally different. But still, we have common blood running through owr veins.
 
 
It's just that modern Bulgarians have 70-80 % Slavic blood and that's why they are not considered Turkic, unlike the Turks, who are 90-95% Turkic.
And I know my own history very well, Bulldog. I'm not brainwashed, thanks for your concern. You westerners tend to view people from the Balkans as less civilised than you. Just because we were on the other side of the Iron curtain doesn't mean we're aboregenese. For your surprise we're pretty much like you. So your constant advising and attitude makes me smile.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2006 at 12:44

You don't know Bulgarian history very well mate, that's why you can't understand how absurd your idea of a union between Bulgaria and Turkey is. I'm not saying we shouldn't be neighbourly to one another, but not in the way you proposed it.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2006 at 12:58
Originally posted by the Bulgarian

Now I've seen what we're talking about and I acknowledge that 3 million Turks died in WWІ. My bad.Smile
Clap Shall we say that the language of diplomacy does wonders on you too?Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2006 at 13:21

It was a missunderstanding, no need to make a fuss about it.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2006 at 14:03

thebulgarian

You don't know Bulgarian history very well mate, that's why you can't understand how absurd your idea of a union between Bulgaria and Turkey is.
 
This is precisely what I mean, you say this and that about Westerners lol but your being a great little puppet, go on carry on obeying your Imperialistic masters.
 
You are Slavs, have no connection to Turkic people's what-sover, you are instructed to be their enemy, kill and annihalate and plunder the evil heathen's.
 
LOL
 
Your so used to our demands that when one of us tries to point out the errors in your way's you think were meddling, damn when will you ever learn.
 
So what've you been taught, Ottomans were the terrible Turks they did nothing but destroy the pure White Slavic Bulgarians for 700 years and now they're back again.   Ottomans are bad worse than bad horrific, a bad nightmare we must errase that chapter from our history books, never talk about it again, they did nothing good or positive we must never question our hatred just let it grow and manifest and breed into sick racism.
 
 
You see, the above attitude is gonna get you know-where except just where we want you, with an internal crisis and percieved enemies all around.
 
It doesn't have to be that way.
 
The Ottoman is part of your history aswell, it had many positive aspects and has influence Bulgaria and its culture alot, you may aswell embrace this instead of supress the facts.
 
What I suggested isn't very far-fetched, all it would take is a forward thinking, smart pollitical movement who thinks about the improvement of Bulgaria.
 
There is a common point to play on in Nationhood in Bulgaria, a big part of being part of a nation is the sense of belonging, you have a common point to stress on, however, you've been brainwashed into not thinking you can take that "T" avenue. Wink
 
  
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2006 at 14:20
This is precisely what I mean, you say this and that about Westerners lol but your being a great little puppet, go on carry on obeying your Imperialistic masters.
 
Wacko
 
You are Slavs, have no connection to Turkic people's what-sover, you are instructed to be their enemy, kill and annihalate and plunder the evil heathen's.
 
LOL
 
Your so used to our demands that when one of us tries to point out the errors in your way's you think were meddling, damn when will you ever learn.
 
So what've you been taught, Ottomans were the terrible Turks they did nothing but destroy the pure White Slavic Bulgarians for 700 years and now they're back again.   Ottomans are bad worse than bad horrific, a bad nightmare we must errase that chapter from our history books, never talk about it again, they did nothing good or positive we must never question our hatred just let it grow and manifest and breed into sick racism.
 
 
You see, the above attitude is gonna get you know-where except just where we want you, with an internal crisis and percieved enemies all around.
Wacko
 
It doesn't have to be that way.
 
It's not.
 
The Ottoman is part of your history aswell, it had many positive aspects and has influence Bulgaria and its culture alot, you may aswell embrace this instead of supress the facts.
 
Noone is supressing any facts. The Ottoman yoke is part of owr history, but not a possitive one. However, the Turks aren't owr enemies anymore, we must live in peace together.


Edited by the Bulgarian - 19-May-2006 at 14:21
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 10:55
 
Originally posted by bg_turk

Well, it just shows that you are no different than the Turks whom you accuse of expansionism, because you did to their culture precisely what you accuse the Turks to have done to your. Besides Bulgarian culture in many Bulgarian towns survived for more than 500 years, Turkish culture and architecture in Plovdiv did not even survived the first 50 years of Bulgarian independence. Lets not hijack this thread, reply in the Turks in Bulgaria section, if you will.
 
I am no different than the turks?    >>>>    Well, what are the turks,then, and what did they do, in your opinion?
 
Bulgarian culture in many Bulgarian towns survived for more than 500 years, Turkish culture and architecture in Plovdiv did not even survived the first 50 years of Bulgarian independence.
 
This is an example for unsuitable comparison.
 
This about the bulgarian culture is right, but in this sentence - is little funny, because in the same time many bulgarian settlements don`t survived and the turkish architecture in Plovdiv is not equal to all of them.
 
And the churches that was destroyed by the turks in the time of the turkish rule in the Balkans, were many many more, than the mosques, destroyed by the christian peoples in the time of their wars for liberation.


Edited by The Chargemaster - 21-May-2006 at 11:01
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 12:10
Originally posted by bg_turk

Well, it just shows that you are no different than the Turks whom you accuse of expansionism, because you did to their culture precisely what you accuse the Turks to have done to your. Besides Bulgarian culture in many Bulgarian towns survived for more than 500 years, Turkish culture and architecture in Plovdiv did not even survived the first 50 years of Bulgarian independence.
 
Reclaiming owr land and liberty back is not expansionism.


Edited by the Bulgarian - 21-May-2006 at 12:10
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 12:32
Originally posted by the Bulgarian

 
Reclaiming owr land and liberty back is not expansionism.

But taking our land and our libtery is.
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