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Topic ClosedTurks in Bulgaria (Flame-War Warning)

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Turks in Bulgaria (Flame-War Warning)
    Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 17:02

Today the declaration was issued by Bulgarian Turks demanding some more freedoms and rights. The Bulgarian original can be found here:
http://www.vsekiden.com/news_left.php?topic=1&id=12266

Here is my translation:


A PETITION BY THE ETHNIC TURKS OF BULGARIA

We, the undersigned Bulgarian citizens, members of the Muslims Turkish minority, taking into consideration the continuing policy by the Bulgarian state of non-respect for our right of self determination, the application of totalitarian forms of assimilations,  lack of representation in the political system, and the interference in the Muslim faith, appeal for the following:

1.     The Constitutional restoration and regulation of the presence of a Turkish minority in the Republic of Bulgaria - a multinational, sovereign and territorially integral state. The latter has to recognize all our rights, guaranteed by the European Convention of Human Rights and the Convention for the Protection of National Minorities.

2.     A public declaration by the government, that Bulgarian citizens have the right to free self-determination. Based on self-determination and voluntary declaration of ethnic identity, personal documents must contain in addition to citizenship a nationality entry.

3.     The status, the political rights and obligations of the minority must be regulated by a special Law for the minorities.

4.     The cessation of the interference of the state and satellite political parties in the Muslim faith, the right of association and respect for the democratic principles in the administration of the religious community.

5.     The establishment of a Ministry of minorities in Bulgaria, the aim of which is to maintain European norms and principles in the government of the state.

6.     The opening of a Turkish State University, the aim of which is to protect and guard the linguistic and cultural heritage of the Turkish minority.

7.     The compulsory teaching of the Turkish language for all Bulgarian citizens with a Turkish self-determination.

8.     The cancellation of the constitutional ban on the establishment of ethnic parties, since a restriction on the right of associations and the establishment of parties by ethnic communities is in contravention to article 11 of the European Convention of Human Rights.

9.     The opening of a department for programs in the Turkish language in the Bulgarian National Radio and Bulgarian National Television.

10. The rejection of the Bulgarian ethnic model, which is a continuation of the assimilation and the genocide against the Turkish and Muslim minority.

The realization of the above stated demands, which are in accordance with the European Convention of Human Rights and the Convention for the Protection of the National Minorities, must become a priority for the Bulgarian state as part of its drive to join the European Union.

Attached: The signatures of 5000 representatives of the Turkish and Muslim minority in Bulgaria. 

Do you think these demands are realistic?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 17:56

Originally posted by NikeBG

First, those titles, which I posted are far from certain. F.e. the tumen-tarkan is based only on a single statement of a poster in a forum (I wondered if I should include it or not, but...). The khagan is also under question or actually it's not under question - afaik, we have no information for Bulgarian khagans. If you had read more carefully, you would've noticed that khagan is placed only to show the difference between khagan and khan. And even khan is not a certain title for the Bulgar rulers, as from IX century stone-column inscriptions the title is "kanasubigi" (I don't have Greek letter to write the original). And I believe that Balkhara was in the region of the Persian Empire...
And from your quote I see only one mentioning of the Bulgars when they were under the ruler of the Western-Turkic until 632, when Khan Kubrat (and according to some - with his uncle Organa) revolted against the Turkic and unified the Bulgar tribes into "Old Great Bulgaria" (as it is known from the Byzantines).

Btw, one even more off-topic question: Are the Alans Turkic? And are the Turkic nomads? Did they have (permanent) cities, agriculture, metal-casting?

the map-link you gave is the exactly the area where cumans, volga bulgars settled down (still there are Turkic tribes). You forgot to mention the avars, pechenegs and the all others who came with the huns and settled down into bulgaria and hungary. And the bulgarian (pecheneg) soldiers under byzantian empire against selcuk Turks in 1071, how they changed from side when heared they spoke the same language, etc etc.

Khagan is the version that Turkic people uses, khagan, hakan, han.

Alans are Turkic? I dont know, maybe they had a relation with Turkic nomads but im not so sure.

Turks did have  permanent city's, in altaic mountans whas a very old remanents of a Turkic city found even the scythian capital whas in Altai mountans, in uygur autonomic region in china found also a very old city (kajar or kaspar dont remember the name) with long canalisations.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 06:43
Let's continue the topic in the Bulgaria thread in Medieval Europe!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 07:00
The Pechenegs werent Bulgarians!

They were turcic nomads,and in the time they arrived in the area,Bulgars have already been "Slavic".

In Mantzikiert they deserted to the Seljucs ,partially cause of their common turcic ancestry and language-this doesnt have to do anything with Bulgars.
In fact many times invaded Bulgaria and nowhere is mentioned that they felt relatives with Bulgars.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 07:39
Neither do the Byzantine chroniclers speak of any relativeness between the Turks and the Bulgars (well, Byzantines sometimes called us Scythians (in the First Bulgarian Tsardom)). But that's not anymore for the "Turks in Bulgaria", so let's continue in the "Bulgaria" thread in "Medieval Europe" and leave this thread for on-topic discussions!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 09:20

Originally posted by bg_turk


DayI I think there is no doubt that the Pomaks were originally Christian Slavs (I do not say Bulgarian because when the Selchuks first arrived the cocept of a Bulagrian nation was not defined).

That's unserious. The Bulgarian nation as it is today was formed in the 10th century. Of course many other tribes were assimilated for 1100 years, but the Bulgarian national countiosness was always present. The Pomaks identified themselves as Bulgarians 600 years ago and they continue to do so today.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2006 at 07:12
They even have old(beautiful) bulgarian names
"The slave is fighting for freedom,free is fighting for perfectness"
Yane Sandanski
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2006 at 20:16

The Framework Convention for the National Minorities to which Bulgaria is a signatory states clearly:

The member States of the Council of Europe and the other States, signatories to the present framework Convention,

....

Considering that a pluralist and genuinely democratic society should not only respect the ethnic, cultural, linguistic and religious identity of each person belonging to a national minority, but also create appropriate conditions enabling them to express, preserve and develop this identity;

...

Have agreed as follows:

 

Article 7

The Parties shall ensure respect for the right of every person belonging to a national minority to freedom of peaceful assembly, freedom of association, freedom of expression, and freedom of thought, conscience and religion.

Article 11

  1. The Parties undertake to recognise that every person belonging to a national minority has the right to use his or her surname (patronym) and first names in the minority language and the right to official recognition of them, according to modalities provided for in their legal system.

Article 13

  1. Within the framework of their education systems, the Parties shall recognise that persons belonging to a national minority have the right to set up and to manage their own private educational and training establishments.

Article 14

  1. In areas inhabited by persons belonging to national minorities traditionally or in substantial numbers, if there is sufficient demand, the Parties shall endeavour to ensure, as far as possible and within the framework of their education systems, that persons belonging to those minorities have adequate opportunities for being taught the minority language or for receiving instruction in this language.

Source:

http://conventions.coe.int/treaty/en/Treaties/Html/157.htm

This is all we demand. In short what many Bulgarians view as "privileges" are in fact obligations to the Republic of Bulgaria under the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities to which it is a signatory.

 



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 11:06
This map is showing the ethnical distribution in Bulgaria in 2001 year. The white people in some of the municipalities, who are near to the southern bulgarian borders are pomaks and because of that they are ethnic bulgarians too:



grey     - bulgarians
yellow - turks
red       - gipsy/roma/tzigane/cengeneler
white   - pomaks(ethnic bulgarians-moslems), and others


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 12:08

Ethnic Map of the East Balkans in the 1912 year:

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2006 at 17:28

An interesting statement by Human Rights Watch from 1989:

Due to the rapidly changing configuration of Eastern Europe, Bulgaria -- a country that has traditionally received little attention in Washington -- suddenly became one of the focal points of the Bush administration's foreign policy. The administration closely tracked human rights practices in Bulgaria, and frequently criticized the government for its human rights policies. Bulgaria was initially grouped with three other holdouts against change in the eastern bloc: Czechoslovakia, East Germany and Romania. The strongest criticism was reserved for Bulgaria's treatment of its Turkish minority, members of which were expelled by the thousands throughout May and June. Somewhat belatedly, the administration also focused on Bulgaria's persecution of a small core of human rights activists. In the latter part of the year, it became clear that these activists could attract significant domestic support and could eventually become an independent political force in Bulgaria. The U.S. embassy in Sofia deserves special praise for its diligent efforts to keep in touch with human rights activists despite persistent government efforts to isolate them. Now, when recent events in Bulgaria, including the removal of Party leader Zhukov, hold the promise of new freedoms and democracy for all Bulgarian citizens, the U.S. embassy and the adminstration should continue to be vigilant while encouraging the institutionalization of democratic freedoms through legislative reform.

On several occasions during the summer of 1989, the administration condemned Bulgaria's persecution of its Turkish minority. These Turks have faced a harsh assimilation campaign since 1984 intended to eradicate their cultural and religious identity. The campaign gained visibility in late May, when tens of thousands of Turks took to the streets in the northeastern and southeastern provinces to demonstrate against assimilation. Police and soldiers violently suppressed the demonstrations. Scores of Turks were reportedly killed and hundreds of others were injured. On May 24, several days after the first reports of the demonstrations appeared in the Western press, the State Department denounced Bulgaria's crackdown. In a brief statement, a spokesperson deplored Bulgaria's "blatant use of force in attempting to silence the long repressed ethnic Turkish minority." During the June Helsinki follow-up meeting on human rights -- part of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe ("CSCE") -- Ambassador Morris Abram and other U.S. delegates singled out Bulgaria for having one of the worst human rights records in the eastern bloc.

In the weeks that followed, reports of beatings, arrests and expulsions of Turks continued to reach the West. As Bulgaria forced thousands of Turks out of the country, the administration took a series of measures to express its disapproval. These measures seemed intended to send a warning signal to Bulgarian authorities, but did not disrupt relations in any significant fashion. The administration should have acted more forcefully in the wake of such large-scale repression; nevertheless, the United States was generally more critical of Bulgaria's policies than was any other Western democracy.

According to State Department sources, in a June 5 meeting with Bulgarian Ambassador Velichko Velichkov which had been requested by the Bulgarian embassy in Washington, Deputy Secretary of State Lawrence Eagleburger raised U.S. concerns over the Turkish issue. The State Department also expressed its displeasure to the Bulgarian ambassador and other embassy officials on at least two other occasions in June. The same month, the State Department instructed the U.S. embassy in Sofia to make a formal inquiry into the treatment of ethnic Turks under the newly established CSCE mechanism for bilateral discussion of human rights violations.

The administration also gingerly used U.S. trade relations with Bulgaria to gain leverage on the Turkish issue. On June 12, the State Department cancelled a series of official meetings that a deputy trade minister from Bulgaria was to have with Department officials. Although the administration deserves praise for this symbolic gesture, it is unclear why the meeting was scheduled in the first place, given Bulgaria's five-year-old policy of persecuting its Turks. Had the May demonstrations by the Turks not taken place and thrust the issue into the spotlight, it appears that the administration would have been willing to conduct business as usual.

On June 26, the White House issued a somewhat tardy though strongly worded statement on Bulgaria's treatment of the Turks. The statement noted that in the last month "over 60,000 people have either fled or been forcibly expelled from Bulgaria to Turkey -- many with nothing more than the clothes on their backs"; and it attributed the mass migration to "the Bulgarian Government's systematic denial of basic human rights to its Turkish minority." The White House went on:

We deplore Bulgaria's blatant violations of the human rights of its citizens, rights which Bulgaria has committed itself to protect as a signatory of the Helsinki accords and other international agreements. We urge the Government of Bulgaria to cease these violations and to allow for the orderly emigration of those ethnic Turks who desire to leave.

During July and August, tens of thousands of additional Turks were pressured to leave Bulgaria. As this occurred, the administration began to focus on ways in which to assist the refugees, most of whom were resettling in Turkey. On July 3, President Bush telephoned Turkish Prime Minister Turgut Ozal to express his concern about the forced departures and reportedly offered economic assistance to Ozal to help resettle the new refugees. On August 11, after more than 250,000 Turks had fled Bulgaria, a State Department spokesperson called upon Bulgaria to "provide an orderly departure with dignity and personal property for those who wish to leave Bulgaria." A foreign aid bill, not yet enacted as of this writing, includes $10 million in refugee assistance to Turkey to assist it in resettling the Bulgarian Turks.

When the number of refugees reached 310,000, the United States, on August 29, recalled its ambassador to Bulgaria, Sol Polansky, for consultations. This, the strongest reaction to date, was intended to register U.S. concern over the ongoing abuses. On the day the recall was announced, a State Department spokesman explained that the general worsening of repression against ethnic Turks rather than any specific incident led to the move.

In 1990, the administration should continue to protest the treatment of the ethnic Turks, but should also focus on human rights abuses against Bulgaria's Pomak minority. Although fewer in number than the Turks, the Pomaks are subjected to similar human rights abuses. Bulgarian Muslims, the Pomaks are generally denied the right to practice their religion or to use their Islamicized names. They are frequently harassed and persecuted by police and security forces. As of this writing, Pomaks who have requested passports have been denied them, even though under Bulgaria's new passport law any citizen (with certain well-defined exceptions) who applies for a passport has the right to obtain one. The administration should press the Bulgarian authorities to ensure that Pomak passport applications are processed in the same manner as applications from other citizens.

Until a CSCE meeting on the environment convened in Sofia in late October, the State Department paid insufficient public attention to the plight of a small but growing number of individuals who engaged in independent activities. Since January 1988, a number of independent groups have formed in Bulgaria to address such issues as human rights, the environment, religious freedom, and broader citizen participation in the political process. Members of these groups have had to endure varying degrees of persecution, ranging from job dismissal or expulsion from the country to imprisonment. As we indicated in last year's report, we would like to see the administration condemn human rights violations against these individuals more forcefully and more openly, and as soon as it learns of them. We note that in August, a State Department spokesman said that the United States would "continue to seek every opportunity" to express its concern over the problems of "individual Bulgarian human rights activists." However, aside from several speeches made at various CSCE conferences, we are aware of no public statements until the October meeting that actually extended strong support to Bulgarian human rights activists; at most the administration gave the persecution of these activists only cursory mention. Finally, in October, after several human rights activists were reportedly threatened with criminal charges for meeting with delegates to the CSCE environmental conference, the head of the U.S. delegation, Richard Smith, told the forum:

We are especially disturbed by reports that individuals have been harassed, threatened with expulsion and now may face criminal charges for their involvement in this gathering. We hope that these recent reports are not true and that Bulgarian citizens concerned with the environment -- or any other issue for that matter -- will be able to act upon their rights and freedoms this week and in the future.

We applaud the efforts of the U.S. embassy in Sofia to keep abreast of independent groups and their activities. During a fact-finding mission to Bulgaria, three representatives of Helsinki Watch were invited to a reception at Ambassador Polansky's residence to meet with a "Who's Who" of the independent movement in Bulgaria. In what should be a model program for other embassies, U.S. embassy staff members attend public events sponsored by independent groups to monitor the ability of these groups to engage in activities without harassment.

Source:

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1989/WR89/Bulgaria.htm

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 17:19
After cleansing ethnic minorities within Turkey (although didnt totally succeed yet) the Turkish governement tries to create "Trojan horses" in other countries...
Is it a matter of rights only? if yes i totally support it.
Sorry but i doubt the kemalist democracy's innocent and pure purposes...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 17:49

Originally posted by Digenis

After cleansing ethnic minorities within Turkey (although didnt totally succeed yet) the Turkish governement tries to create "Trojan horses" in other countries...
Is it a matter of rights only? if yes i totally support it.
Sorry but i doubt the kemalist democracy's innocent and pure purposes...

 in balkan 3 million turks killed by bulgar ,serb and greek.

http://www.turks.org.uk/
16th century world;
Ottomans all Roman orients
Safavids in Persia
Babur in india
`azerbaycan bayragini karabagdan asacagim``
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 17:54
no,actually 30 million.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 18:03

Originally posted by Digenis

no,actually 30 million.

I know you like it when turks get killed, so you cannot help but lough, but in any case for the more serious people interested in the topic, I will quote again the sources for the figures:

 

Death and Exile: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821-1922

In the course of the century between the Greek war of independence and World War I, the Ottoman Empire suffered five and a half million dead and five million refugees. He deems this Europe's largest lost of life and emigration since the Thirty Years' War. Christian suffering in this time and place is well-known; McCarthy shows the other side, that "Muslim communities in an area as large as all of western Europe had been diminished or destroyed."

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10040&am p;PN=1

The Ottoman Peoples and the End of Empire

The Ottoman Empire has suffered 5.5 million casualties, most of them in the Balkans.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 18:06
Originally posted by merced12

 in balkan 3 million turks killed by bulgar ,serb and greek.

Not all were killed, many died due to the poor conditions during their exile out of hunger or epidemics, or were attacked by bandits. During the Russian invasion of 1878 and later during the First and Second Balkan Wars most of the major cities were virtually emptied from their Turkish inhabitants.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 18:14
When u invade  ,kill,rape,burn and conquer the land,
you ll have to think of that some day some people will rise against u...

If u count the losses of lives the last 1000 years that Turks caused ,then maybe u ll be ashamed for your protest in your previous post...


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 18:57

Originally posted by Digenis

After cleansing ethnic minorities within Turkey (although didnt totally succeed yet) the Turkish governement tries to create "Trojan horses" in other countries...

The petition has nothing to do with the Turkish government. It is a matter entirely between the Turks and Bulgarians within Bulgaria, and the Turkish government cannot and should not interfere in this internal affair for the Republic of Bulgaria.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 17:00
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 17:25

digenissssssssss

chargemaster do u know turkish.

http://www.turks.org.uk/
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