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Muslims and Idolatry

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  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Muslims and Idolatry
    Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 22:20
Originally posted by Maju

We are apes!


I have no objection or problem as to how you see yourself.  However, the scientific theory you believe in has so many flaws (which I'm not going to go through here - you may google it up, if you want) that are still debated in the scientific arena.  If the scientific evidence available was adequate, Einstein would have been first to believe in it!
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 23:21
Originally posted by OSMANLI



Mila dont try and twist what i, the Qur'an or the Sunnah are teaching.

The beard that you keep on mentioning is a SUNNAH, meaning it is not compulsary. Those that want to show their love for the Prophet (PBUH) try to copy the beard. Are we to judge a person by his facial hair? is that modern?

First you must learn what Fardh, Sunnat, Wahajib etc are before you feel free to comment in the name of Islam.

Mila says:

"EDIT: If you're going to talk about idolatry in Islam, I'd say Mohammed is the bigger threat than kaaba or koran. Especially among those who think they have to live literally just like him, in the 600s."

Muhammad PBUH a threat? infact your comment must have been worse since you felt the need to edit it. This comment it self could take you out of the fold of Islam since it goes directly against the 1st piller of Islam, the Shahada which is the core of the faith.

At the very least your comments would make you a 'munafiq'. This is a class of people that know something about Islam and then say they are part of it. However, they disobey the commandments of Allah and spend their time trying to divide people and make them into munafiks also.

Please i know that my comments may come across as harsh, i dont mean any offence. But rather i feel that i must tell you for your benefit. If you have a personal opinion and you stated that this is Mila's opinion then i would not have commented. However claiming that your opinion derives fromt the true Islam is why i have felt the need to comment.

Kindest Regards,

OSMANLI

I am shocked. Who are you to comment on the strength of anyones faith? That is a grevious insult, which in many parts of pakistan would leave you a marked man Osmanli.
No-one is dening that you should follow the example of the prophet. No-one is dening that Muhammad(pbuh) is the messenger of God.
The Shahada states, There is no god but God. Sometimes translated into english as There is nothing worthy of worship except God. Muhammad (pbuh) was a man, and should not be worshipped.
"To anyone who worshipped Muhammad, let him know that he is dead, but to anyone who worshipped Allah, let him know that he is alive and cannot die." - Abu Bakr on the death of the prophet.
The point of contention, is where you draw the line between, following the Prophet, and worshipping him. I draw that line at
Originally posted by mila


keep your beard this length, keep your clothing this length, sit like this, hold your fork like this, paint your walls this color

(Within the bounds of modesty of course)

I don't care if someone goes out drinking or gambling all the time, you still cannot call them munafiq. You say, you shouldn't do that, or your not being a good muslim, but you do not ever call them munafiq. That is haram, and a very bad sin.
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  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 23:38

Originally posted by Mira

Originally posted by Maju

We are apes!


I have no objection or problem as to how you see yourself.  However, the scientific theory you believe in has so many flaws (which I'm not going to go through here - you may google it up, if you want) that are still debated in the scientific arena.  If the scientific evidence available was adequate, Einstein would have been first to believe in it!

It seems to me you claime we are all apes and only you are descendant of real human, although real humans were apes befor, like it or not. I am very sure you have not fallen from the heaven.

Einstein has never rejected evolution's theory completely, he thinks this theory is not perfect and factually it has some mistakes, which must be corrected. And offcourse evolution's theory opposes in many points the relativity's theory. If he wanted to reject it completely, he never wanted to replace it with Adam and Eve or any religious myth, but rather a scientical and terrestrial solution.



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  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 23:48

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Originally posted by OSMANLI



Mila dont try and twist what i, the Qur'an or the Sunnah are teaching.

The beard that you keep on mentioning is a SUNNAH, meaning it is not compulsary. Those that want to show their love for the Prophet (PBUH) try to copy the beard. Are we to judge a person by his facial hair? is that modern?

First you must learn what Fardh, Sunnat, Wahajib etc are before you feel free to comment in the name of Islam.

Mila says:

"EDIT: If you're going to talk about idolatry in Islam, I'd say Mohammed is the bigger threat than kaaba or koran. Especially among those who think they have to live literally just like him, in the 600s."

Muhammad PBUH a threat? infact your comment must have been worse since you felt the need to edit it. This comment it self could take you out of the fold of Islam since it goes directly against the 1st piller of Islam, the Shahada which is the core of the faith.

At the very least your comments would make you a 'munafiq'. This is a class of people that know something about Islam and then say they are part of it. However, they disobey the commandments of Allah and spend their time trying to divide people and make them into munafiks also.

Please i know that my comments may come across as harsh, i dont mean any offence. But rather i feel that i must tell you for your benefit. If you have a personal opinion and you stated that this is Mila's opinion then i would not have commented. However claiming that your opinion derives fromt the true Islam is why i have felt the need to comment.

Kindest Regards,

OSMANLI

I am shocked. Who are you to comment on the strength of anyones faith? That is a grevious insult, which in many parts of pakistan would leave you a marked man Osmanli.
No-one is dening that you should follow the example of the prophet. No-one is dening that Muhammad(pbuh) is the messenger of God.
The Shahada states, There is no god but God. Sometimes translated into english as There is nothing worthy of worship except God. Muhammad (pbuh) was a man, and should not be worshipped.
"To anyone who worshipped Muhammad, let him know that he is dead, but to anyone who worshipped Allah, let him know that he is alive and cannot die." - Abu Bakr on the death of the prophet.
The point of contention, is where you draw the line between, following the Prophet, and worshipping him. I draw that line at
Originally posted by mila


keep your beard this length, keep your clothing this length, sit like this, hold your fork like this, paint your walls this color

(Within the bounds of modesty of course)

I don't care if someone goes out drinking or gambling all the time, you still cannot call them munafiq. You say, you shouldn't do that, or your not being a good muslim, but you do not ever call them munafiq. That is haram, and a very bad sin.

Although we are not the same opinion, but i realize you as a tolerant person. You deserve my respect.

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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 02:15
Originally posted by Maziar

Although we are not the same opinion, but i realize you as a tolerant person. You deserve my respect.


Thank you very much.
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  Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 03:08

Originally posted by Mira

Originally posted by Maju

We are apes!


I have no objection or problem as to how you see yourself.  However, the scientific theory you believe in has so many flaws (which I'm not going to go through here - you may google it up, if you want) that are still debated in the scientific arena.  If the scientific evidence available was adequate, Einstein would have been first to believe in it!

 

Why do you think that Einstein didn't believe in evolution theory? I'm just curious ...

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 03:24
Originally posted by Leonardo

Originally posted by Mira

Originally posted by Maju

We are apes!


I have no objection or problem as to how you see yourself.  However, the scientific theory you believe in has so many flaws (which I'm not going to go through here - you may google it up, if you want) that are still debated in the scientific arena.  If the scientific evidence available was adequate, Einstein would have been first to believe in it!

 

Why do you think that Einstein didn't believe in evolution theory? I'm just curious ...



Didn't he?

He had problems with quantum mechanics but I never heard that he had with standard biology.

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  Quote Periander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 03:25
WARNING: EXTREMELY OT POST FOLLOWS!

Omar, Please forgive my ignorance. In your reply to Osmanli, you write the following letters following on from the name of the Prophet: "pbuh". What does that mean?
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 03:25
peace be upon him

Whats an extremely OT post?


Edited by Omar al Hashim
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 03:40
Originally posted by Mira

Originally posted by Maju

We are apes!


I have no objection or problem as to how you see yourself.  However, the scientific theory you believe in has so many flaws (which I'm not going to go through here - you may google it up, if you want) that are still debated in the scientific arena.  If the scientific evidence available was adequate, Einstein would have been first to believe in it!


Why have I never heard before about Einstein's buts to evolutionary biology? Where did you get that from? He did have buts about quantum mechanics, another widely proven theory, but this seems to have caused out of his prejudices about how God is supposed to act ("God doesn't gamble"), not his scientific thought.

He actually made a major effort in his late years to disprove quantum mechanics, which is in the bases of such techs as nuclear energy. Yet he dramatically failed. In once occasion he was reading a self-written paper on that when he realized he had comitted a major error and left the stage ashamed.

Like quantum mechanics, evolutionary biology is behind many technological applications, such as bio-farmacology or the controversial GMOs, which couldn't exist without it. It's not just widely proven but experimentally demonstrated.

Evolutionary biology isn't debated as such in the scientific arena. Of course there is debate on the details and science should never close its doors to serious debate. But evolution itself is only challenged in the media by fanatics of all sorts. No serious biologist would. Not at this stage.

A religious scientist can maybe prefer the ID explanation to feel more confortable within his ideological frame but that's not science: it's philosophy: putting God in the process of evolution as an orchestral director that makes sure that the performance is perfect. I'm not going to discuss that: it's not science but a speculative conciliation of creationist exotheism with scienctifical knowledge.

There is not any problem with evolutionary biology, as there is no problem with plate techntonics or with quantum mechanics. All them are major paradigms in their respective fields and have survived and even been reinforced by the baseless attacks of the fanatic hordes of ignorance.

I suggest you to study the matter in depth so you can have a based opinion.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 03:44
Just relized that we are discussing evolution and religion when there's another topi on it in this same subforum. This is about idolatry, not evolution.

OT should be "off topic". Just what I did.

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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 03:58
Originally posted by Maju



He actually made a major effort in his late years to disprove quantum mechanics, which is in the bases of such techs as nuclear energy. Yet he dramatically failed. In once occasion he was reading a self-written paper on that when he realized he had comitted a major error and left the stage ashamed.
 

Actually Maju. Those failed proofs are still up for questioning. I once went to a seminar at uni (Australian National University) where they were describing the teleporter they had built. (It actually made a clone of a photon, but is considered a teleporter). I hardly understood how it worked, but apparently the whole reason was because of one of einstiens proofs that quantum mechanics didn't exist.
So both quantum mechanics and the proof that it doesn't exist, were combined to create a teleporter.
Unfortunately I can't remember the details.
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  Quote Periander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 04:10
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

peace be upon him

Whats an extremely OT post?


Well, do I feel embarassed?! Thank you for your patience.

OT= Off=Topic
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  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 04:26

Originally posted by Maziar

It seems to me you claime we are all apes and only you are descendant of real human, although real humans were apes befor, like it or not. I am very sure you have not fallen from the heaven

I never said you were descandants of apes.  You're the ones who believe that about yourselves.  And I never said I had fallen from heaven, but yes, I believe the human species is distinct, and couldn't have evolved from anything.  How else do you explain that ever since our alleged evolution to the complex beings we are now, we haven't shown any evolutionary progress?  So the evolution process stopped right here, you say?  Sounds bogus to me.  I'm satisfied with what I believe in, and I realize you are, too, with what you believe in.  I respect that.

Originally posted by Leonardo

Why do you think that Einstein didn't believe in evolution theory? I'm just curious ...

You can google that up, Leonardo.  It's all on the internet.

Originally posted by Maju

Why have I never heard before about Einstein's buts to evolutionary biology?

Maybe because you weren't looking for it? 

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  Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 05:32
Originally posted by Mira

Originally posted by Maziar

It seems to me you claime we are all apes and only you are descendant of real human, although real humans were apes befor, like it or not. I am very sure you have not fallen from the heaven

I never said you were descandants of apes.  You're the ones who believe that about yourselves.  And I never said I had fallen from heaven, but yes, I believe the human species is distinct, and couldn't have evolved from anything.  How else do you explain that ever since our alleged evolution to the complex beings we are now, we haven't shown any evolutionary progress?  So the evolution process stopped right here, you say?  Sounds bogus to me.  I'm satisfied with what I believe in, and I realize you are, too, with what you believe in.  I respect that.

Originally posted by Leonardo

Why do you think that Einstein didn't believe in evolution theory? I'm just curious ...

You can google that up, Leonardo.  It's all on the internet.

Originally posted by Maju

Why have I never heard before about Einstein's buts to evolutionary biology?

Maybe because you weren't looking for it? 

 

I've entered on google "Einstein evolution theory" but I've found only these ! :

http://www.google.it/search?hl=it&q=%22einstein+evolutio n+theory%22&btnG=Cerca&meta=lr%3Dlang_en

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  Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 08:01

No, how dare you Omar, you once again have commented with little or very basic knowledge, on Islam. I have already explained what a munafiq is, and no it is NOT as you mentioned a person that drinks or gambles as you quite wrongly presume.

"which in many parts of pakistan would leave you a marked man Osmanli."

, I do not act in a manner which will please parts of Pakistan. I have never even been there nor do i have plans to go there.

"Muhammad (pbuh) was a man, and should not be worshipped."

That right, doing so would be considered associating partners with Allah. But do you think by twisting what i say will prove anything? I did not say that we worship the Prophet PBUH, i even mentioned the Shahada which goes against such claims.

La ilaha illala Muhamadu rasulullah

There is no God but God (Allah) and Muhammad is his messenger

Thus Muslims belive the Muhammad PBUH to be a messenger and NOT A THREAT

Mila:

" Mohammed is the bigger threat "

What exactly does a messenger do?

They deliver a message.

Who exactly is the message from for the belief of a Muslim?

Allah (God)

Its quite simple, nothing hard to grasp here.

"Believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered Prophet who believes in Allah and his words. Follow him, perhaps you will be guided." (7:157)

This is one of many examples from the Qur'an the mentions to follow the Sunnah for the sake of Allah.

You see to actually prove anything you need sources. You claim to speak in the name of Islam, then prove yourself via the correct sources. If you do not belive in the Qur'an then that is up to you. I shall respect your honesty and belief's

"keep your beard this length, keep your clothing this length, sit like this, hold your fork like this, paint your walls this color"

O, haha. Islam is being mocked, yet no one says anything. I defend my religion and people are 'shocked'.

Maziar, your earlier comment about being 'nervous', what was that about?

If you are going to be so disrespectfull to religions then i openly challenge you or anyone to open a topic on such issues, then PM telling me when you have done so. Iam never 'nervous' on the issue of Islam, becuase " verily in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find rest". Islam is not for hiding.

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  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 08:13

I don't know if putting words between quotes is necessarily the best way to use google, but I really didn't know they put up scientific journal articles for free on the internet?  Be ready to pay if you're looking for something worth reading.

In any case, the journal article I had read a couple of years ago talked about Science vs Religion.  It started off with a quote by Einstein (which I don't remember exactly), in which he says that science without religion is inadequate, and vice versa.  Anyway, the author discusses Einstein's belief, and then he argues that although he was not at all religious, Einstein did believe in the existence of a  non-personal Creator (whatever that means), who is in control of the creation, which explains why his position regarding the evolutionary theory was that (something to this effect), "If the evolution theory was real, then there must have been a 'Designer' who used evolution as a method to get us where we are today."

If I find the details of that article, I'll certainly share.



Edited by Mira
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  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 14:57
Originally posted by OSMANLI

Maziar, your earlier comment about being 'nervous', what was that about?

If you are going to be so disrespectfull to religions then i openly challenge you or anyone to open a topic on such issues, then PM telling me when you have done so. Iam never 'nervous' on the issue of Islam, becuase " verily in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find rest". Islam is not for hiding.

This was my main question:

Originally posted by Maziar

My Parents are Muslims, not me i am an atheist. Well the probleme is that i don't believe on stories like adam and eve, i believe on evolotion's theory of darwin. Anyway i wanted to know how comes Kaaba is so important, there is nothing disrespectfull, i only want to know the historical facts.

No one gave me an answer to it, instead i was attacked from all sides for the minor points on my question, so i was wondered.

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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 20:54
Originally posted by OSMANLI



No, how dare you Omar, you once again have commented with little or very basic knowledge, on Islam.


You are in no position to judge on my knowledge of Islam, and you should not make unfounded accusations of things which you have no knowledge of.

Originally posted by OSMANLI



I have already explained what a munafiq is, and no it is NOT as you mentioned a person that drinks or gambles as you quite wrongly presume.

A munafiq Osmanli, is not someone who:
Originally posted by OSMANLI


This is a class of people that know something about Islam and then say they are part of it.

An Munafiq, is a pretender, a hypocrite, someone who pretends to be a muslim while in their hearts not believing at all. They may be the most learned person but not believe in their hearts. Someone who believes in all their heart but does not understand is not munafiq! And only Allah is in a position to judge what is in a mans heart.
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&lr=&oi=defmo re&defl=en&q=define:munafiq
Originally posted by OSMANLI


"which in many parts of pakistan would leave you a marked man Osmanli.", I do not act in a manner which will please parts of Pakistan. I have never even been there nor do i have plans to go there.

My point is think before you speak, otherwise you could get yourself into much trouble in both worlds.


Originally posted by OSMANLI


"Muhammad (pbuh) was a man, and should not be worshipped."

That right, doing so would be considered associating partners with Allah. But do you think by twisting what i say will prove anything? I did not say that we worship the Prophet PBUH, i even mentioned the Shahada which goes against such claims.

La ilaha illala Muhamadu rasulullah

There is no God but God (Allah) and Muhammad is his messenger

So whats your arguement then? Because mine was saying that you should not worship Muhammad (pbuh) as an idol, but worship God.
Originally posted by OSMANLI


Thus Muslims belive the Muhammad PBUH to be a messenger and NOT A THREAT

Mila:

" Mohammed is the bigger threat "

You have completely misunderstood that and taken it out of context.
Lets look at the whole sentence:
Originally posted by mila


If you're going to talk about idolatry in Islam, I'd say Mohammed is the bigger threat than kaaba or koran.

Perhaps my english is better than yours, let me help you.
There are about 1.5 billion muslims in the world and growing each day. Theoritically, some of these are not true muslims at all but munafiq (theoritcally because no man is in a position to judge). These may worship instead of God, other objects/people that are associated with Islam. The thread was opened suggesting that the Qu'ran or kaaba, are these objects. Mila said that it is more likely that people worship Muhammad (pbuh)  than the Qu'ran or kaaba.
Clearly to you and I Osmanli, we know you should only Worship God.
La ilaha illala
the Threat, is Idoletry, not Muhammad(pbuh). Do you deny that Idoletry is wrong?
Originally posted by OSMANLI


What exactly does a messenger do?

They deliver a message.

Who exactly is the message from for the belief of a Muslim?

Allah (God)

Its quite simple, nothing hard to grasp here.

"Believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered Prophet who believes in Allah and his words. Follow him, perhaps you will be guided." (7:157)

This is one of many examples from the Qur'an the mentions to follow the Sunnah for the sake of Allah.

clearly
Originally posted by OSMANLI


You see to actually prove anything you need sources. You claim to speak in the name of Islam, then prove yourself via the correct sources.

Absolutely, but I haven't actually said anything contentious, just stated things that should be common knowledge to anyone who knows anything about Islam, and I didn't think that I would need to look up references to things that extremely basic belief.
You are the one, who has stated fundamental verses that everyone accepts and then compeletly seperately made outrageous statements about a persons faith. Without, I suspect, even understanding what we are talking about!
Originally posted by OSMANLI



"keep your beard this length, keep your clothing this length, sit like this, hold your fork like this, paint your walls this color"

O, haha. Islam is being mocked, yet no one says anything. I defend my religion and people are 'shocked'.

Islam being mocked!?! It is they who practice this who are mocking Islam, hiding the message behind culture and tradition. People who are so far out of touch with the message they think that the colour of your walls will help you reach heaven.
ADDITION: But you cannot call them munafiq, they may have the best intentions, and just not understand.
Originally posted by OSMANLI


Maziar, your earlier comment about being 'nervous', what was that about?

If you are going to be so disrespectfull to religions then i openly challenge you or anyone to open a topic on such issues, then PM telling me when you have done so. Iam never 'nervous' on the issue of Islam, becuase " verily in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find rest". Islam is not for hiding.
 
Openly disrespectful to religions, you are the only one who has been disrespectful to someones religon on this thread, and thats your own. You certainly do seem nevous too. Changing the meaning of statements to infer disrespect and then greviously insulting them. Jumping at the slightest moment.




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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 21:37
Originally posted by Mira

Originally posted by Leonardo

Why do you think that Einstein didn't believe in evolution theory? I'm just curious ...

You can google that up, Leonardo.  It's all on the internet.


It must be in Arabic.

That something is in the Internet is (in itslef proof of nothing): according to the Net atlantis has been found in about 125 different settings, Elvis Presley is alive and Arabia is a department of Bhutan. 

Originally posted by Maju

Why have I never heard before about Einstein's buts to evolutionary biology?

Maybe because you weren't looking for it? 



I'v read some of Einstein's works (particularly those on philosophy) and others' works mentioning Einstein if he ever said such thing I should know. So start quoting date and place or book where he said that.

Anyhow, that Einstein or the Pope could be against something that doesn't disprove it, obviously.

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