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Muslims and Idolatry

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  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Muslims and Idolatry
    Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 23:46
Originally posted by ill_teknique

Originally posted by Maziar

Originally posted by Mila

Originally posted by Maziar

Well the probleme is that i don't believe on stories like adam and eve, i believe on evolotion's theory of darwin.


'We initiated your creation (khalaqa), and then we shaped you...' (7:11)

'And it is God who has created all 'dabbah' from the water...'

".........and We (God) made, from water, every living thing" (21:30)

"And He (God) created you in stages (or phases) "(71:14)

"Has there not been an endless time span when humans were not even a thing thought of? Verily, it is We who have khalaqed man out of a drop of sperm intermingled (with the female ovum)...We made him a being endowed with hearing and sight (ie; wisdom and reason)." (76:1-2)

I know it's open to interpretation, but I believe in evolution as well - and it's in these verses that I see it.

I can see nothing in this vers which is compared with Darwin's evolotions theory.

Btw this translation you present is not accurate. "it is We who have khalaqed man out of a drop of sperm intermingled (with the female ovum)..." the word sperm is mentioned by translatore and it is not how the Quran means it. I have a better Quran for you. http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/htq/ . Well this one is more accurate.



because you dont want to see it

How can you be so naive?

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  Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 05:37

Mila dont try and twist what i, the Qur'an or the Sunnah are teaching.

The beard that you keep on mentioning is a SUNNAH, meaning it is not compulsary. Those that want to show their love for the Prophet (PBUH) try to copy the beard. Are we to judge a person by his facial hair? is that modern?

First you must learn what Fardh, Sunnat, Wahajib etc are before you feel free to comment in the name of Islam.

Mila says:

"EDIT: If you're going to talk about idolatry in Islam, I'd say Mohammed is the bigger threat than kaaba or koran. Especially among those who think they have to live literally just like him, in the 600s."

Muhammad PBUH a threat? infact your comment must have been worse since you felt the need to edit it. This comment it self could take you out of the fold of Islam since it goes directly against the 1st piller of Islam, the Shahada which is the core of the faith.

At the very least your comments would make you a 'munafiq'. This is a class of people that know something about Islam and then say they are part of it. However, they disobey the commandments of Allah and spend their time trying to divide people and make them into munafiks also.

Please i know that my comments may come across as harsh, i dont mean any offence. But rather i feel that i must tell you for your benefit. If you have a personal opinion and you stated that this is Mila's opinion then i would not have commented. However claiming that your opinion derives fromt the true Islam is why i have felt the need to comment.

Kindest Regards,

OSMANLI

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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 08:10

Originally posted by Mila

Originally posted by Leonidas

Islam is very stict against idolatry, it would be very hard to show them practicing it. But my impressions (only from what i see though) is that shiites do come the closest. the way they carry pictures of their imams in processions; its like christians with their saints. Now that is my impression any shi'a can correct me here.


Very strict. Idolatry is the only sin which can never be forgiven in Islam.

To allege that God, the all-merciful, cannot forgive a sin, no matter what, is to place limitations on both his power and his mercy.

You may or may not be right to say that a certain sin will not be forgiven, but it is surely heretical to say it cannot be forgiven.

 

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  Quote ill_teknique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 09:03
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by Mila

Originally posted by Leonidas

Islam is very stict against idolatry, it would be very hard to show them practicing it. But my impressions (only from what i see though) is that shiites do come the closest. the way they carry pictures of their imams in processions; its like christians with their saints. Now that is my impression any shi'a can correct me here.


Very strict. Idolatry is the only sin which can never be forgiven in Islam.

To allege that God, the all-merciful, cannot forgive a sin, no matter what, is to place limitations on both his power and his mercy.

You may or may not be right to say that a certain sin will not be forgiven, but it is surely heretical to say it cannot be forgiven.

 


Well actually I read about some sunna where it mentions allah forgiving a atheist

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  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 10:11
Originally posted by ill_teknique

Well actually I read about some sunna where it mentions allah forgiving a atheist


You might want to support with evidence.
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  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 10:55
Originally posted by ill_teknique

Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by Mila

Originally posted by Leonidas

Islam is very stict against idolatry, it would be very hard to show them practicing it. But my impressions (only from what i see though) is that shiites do come the closest. the way they carry pictures of their imams in processions; its like christians with their saints. Now that is my impression any shi'a can correct me here.


Very strict. Idolatry is the only sin which can never be forgiven in Islam.

To allege that God, the all-merciful, cannot forgive a sin, no matter what, is to place limitations on both his power and his mercy.

You may or may not be right to say that a certain sin will not be forgiven, but it is surely heretical to say it cannot be forgiven.

 


Well actually I read about some sunna where it mentions allah forgiving a atheist

 Atheists have no need to be forgiven. Forgiven for what? becouse they use their brain befor they believe in an ancient myth?



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  Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 11:42

Those that use their brain will actually look into why the majority of the world follows religion. Thus actually looking into their holy scriptures. Since you think a religion that came 1427 years ago is anciant, seems to imply how much you actually know.

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  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 11:53
Originally posted by OSMANLI

Those that use their brain will actually look into why the majority of the world follows religion. Thus actually looking into their holy scriptures. Since you think a religion that came 1427 years ago is anciant, seems to imply how much you actually know.

The religion has came 1400 years befor, but it traditions and stories are several years old. Never heard of jewish elements of Islam? only ancient myth.

Btw, why are you all get nervouse? we are only discusing.



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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 12:18
Originally posted by OSMANLI

Those that use their brain will actually look into why the majority of the world follows religion. Thus actually looking into their holy scriptures. Since you think a religion that came 1427 years ago is anciant, seems to imply how much you actually know.



It's better to say "Medieval"?

I'd say that it's ancient because it's birth not recorded in video. The Past is dead and doubtful - I thought you knew.

Before writting ebcame dominant mythlogies and religious beliefs were recorded orally. Then books replaced them... I think it's about time for the first video-religion.

We don't live in Medieval Arabia, Ancient Palestine nor India. We live today and here. Of what happened in the past we only know doubtful reports and whisperings... and, while curious, they are out of our reality.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 12:26
Originally posted by ill_teknique


Well actually I read about some sunna where it mentions allah forgiving a atheist





Why would an Atheist need to be forgiven? He/she doesn't believe in such superstitions.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 12:35
Originally posted by Maju

Of what happened in the past we only know doubtful reports and whisperings... and, while curious, they are out of our reality.


This also applies to history, which you seem to be interested in.  It also applies to the present, you know.  How much do you think you know about what's really going on in Iraq.  You might, or might not know in the future.  And you'll have the option to believe or not. 

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  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 12:46

Originally posted by Mira

Originally posted by Maju

Of what happened in the past we only know doubtful reports and whisperings... and, while curious, they are out of our reality.


This also applies to history, which you seem to be interested in.  It also applies to the present, you know.  How much do you think you know about what's really going on in Iraq.  You might, or might not know in the future.  And you'll have the option to believe or not. 

I am really interested in history, a history which really happened. Adam and eve, the tower of baylone, Noah's arc are not history, they are myths. So they can't be applied to history.

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  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 13:04
Originally posted by Maziar

I am really interested in history, a history which really happened. Adam and eve, the tower of baylone, Noah's arc are not history, they are myths. So they can't be applied to history.


You never know.  People in the future might even start disputing whether 9/11 had ever happened.

Not everybody's ancestors were monkeys.  If you think yours were; that's a personal opinion, and I respect it .. I guess.
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  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 13:09

Originally posted by Mira

Originally posted by Maziar

I am really interested in history, a history which really happened. Adam and eve, the tower of baylone, Noah's arc are not history, they are myths. So they can't be applied to history.


You never know.  People in the future might even start disputing whether 9/11 had ever happened.

Not everybody's ancestors were monkeys.  If you think yours were; that's a personal opinion, and I respect it .. I guess.

Sorry not only me, yours were too. I think every one who has an average capacity of intelligence could differ between historical facts and superstitions.

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  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 13:22
Originally posted by Maziar

Sorry not only me, yours were too. I think every one who has an average capacity of intelligence could differ between historical facts and superstitions.


I assure you, mine weren't.  Please speak for yourself alone.
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 14:32
Originally posted by Mira

Originally posted by Maju

Of what happened in the past we only know doubtful reports and whisperings... and, while curious, they are out of our reality.


This also applies to history, which you seem to be interested in.  It also applies to the present, you know.  How much do you think you know about what's really going on in Iraq.  You might, or might not know in the future.  And you'll have the option to believe or not. 



I am interested in history, sure. Like others are interested in minerals or fantasy literature or collecting old coins or playing backgammon. I've not meant that history isn't interesting and even source of teachings - but I wouldn't try to apply most of the realities of ancient Athens, Rome or medieval Paris or Byzantium to our reality - I'd be committing a major error.

I do have the option to believe in what I choose but not everyone does. Religious or intellectual freedom is not universally applied, as you surely know, and one of the worst enemies of freedom of thought is precisely religious fanaticism.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 14:36
Originally posted by Mira

Originally posted by Maziar

I am really interested in history, a history which really happened. Adam and eve, the tower of baylone, Noah's arc are not history, they are myths. So they can't be applied to history.


You never know.  People in the future might even start disputing whether 9/11 had ever happened.

Not everybody's ancestors were monkeys.  If you think yours were; that's a personal opinion, and I respect it .. I guess.


Everybody's ancestors are the same in the timescale we are talking about (not monkeys but apes, not the currently existing ones but extinct species). Sorry about you if you pretend otherwise: you are rejecting overwhelming scientific evidence about reality, about what you probably call God's Creation. Why would God allow us to find such an overwhelming ammount of evidence if it wasn't true?

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 14:41
Originally posted by Mira

Originally posted by Maziar

Sorry not only me, yours were too. I think every one who has an average capacity of intelligence could differ between historical facts and superstitions.


I assure you, mine weren't.  Please speak for yourself alone.


Sorry but you ancestors at some point are the same ones as mine or those of Maziar. All humans are distant cousins, that's nowadays as true as night coming after day. And the closest living relative to our species are the chimpanzee and the bonobo (we are also their closest relative of the Pan gender). You may believe what you wish but you are just decieving yourself.

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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 14:44

I'm vaguely interested in why people talk about man descending from apes, or monkeys. It would be just as valid or invalid to talk about apes and monkeys descending from primitive man.

What we all descended from was neither ape nor monkey nor man.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 15:59
Originally posted by gcle2003

I'm vaguely interested in why people talk about man descending from apes, or monkeys. It would be just as valid or invalid to talk about apes and monkeys descending from primitive man.

What we all descended from was neither ape nor monkey nor man.



We are apes!

If chimpanzee, gorilla and other species are apes, so are we. We are the closest living relative to chimps (after bonobos). We and chimps are closer among ourselves genetically and evolutively than gorillas or any other primate.

Therefore, as we are apes, our ancestors were too, obviously.

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