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Muslims and Idolatry

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  Quote Loknar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Muslims and Idolatry
    Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 21:39

Whats the religious significance of Mohammeds house or the Kaba?

SI Abraham there now? Is Mohammed there now? Its a mere structure built by man. From a historic perspective it should be preserved, but beyond it that they perhaps should be revere you would reveres objects in museum. I think turning to pray to Mecca because its a holy city is ok but turning toward an object such as the Kaba serves nothing.

Its the same in Christianity. I dont see why the so called burning bush discovered by St. Helen is any big deal. Bushes burn, and even if Moses saw that bush big deal hes been dead for 3500 years. The some with the true cross. Its wood, nothing more.

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  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 21:44
Originally posted by Maju

They worship the words it contains. Words are objects as well: they aren't God. This I call book-idolatry.


Believing in the content of the book and the book does not mean worshipping it.  Believing in God and worshipping Him is a totally different story.  We believe in the prophet Mohammed (peace be upon Him), but just like we don't worship Him, we don't worship the book.  I don't know where you got that from.
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  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 21:56
Originally posted by Loknar

Whats the religious significance of Mohammeds house or the Kaba?


The Prophet's (peace be upon Him) house has no religious significance.  AS for the Ka'aba's religious significance, you might want to read the earlier posts before repeating answered questions.

Originally posted by Loknar

SI Abraham there now? Is Mohammed there now?

No.  As far as I know, prophet Abraham's (peace be upon Him) grave is in al-Khalil (Hebron).  Yes, prophet Mohammed (peace be upon Him) is buried in His house.

Originally posted by Loknar

I think turning to pray to Mecca because its a holy city is ok but turning toward an object such as the Kaba serves nothing.

The Ka'aba is the center point of Mecca.  People turn to it as a sign of uniformity, as said earlier.

Originally posted by Loknar

Its the same in Christianity. I dont see why the so called burning bush discovered by St. Helen is any big deal. Bushes burn, and even if Moses saw that bush big deal hes been dead for 3500 years. The some with the true cross. Its wood, nothing more.

With all due respect, the prophet might be dead, but the miracle has kept the religion alive this long.  If you don't respect that, it's up to you.  You can't impose your ideas on others.

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  Quote Periander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 21:57
Loknar,

As the Son of God assumed huamn nature, He came to sanctify it as well as all Creation. This is why so many services revolve around prayers of time (Imperial Hours etc). Furthermore, there is the Eucharist, in which the person offers that which is God's Creation to Him in order that it may be blessed and turned into the Body and Blood. This Eucharistic act sanctifies all Creation, which is why there is the reverence for the Cross, for icons, for holy relics etc.

One of the Church Fathers said of the icons and the cross (I can't remember if it was St Spyridon or St John Damascene): "I worship not the Cross but give reverence to the symbolism. For if I break the two pieces of wood, I throw them away as they are not worthy of worship which is due to God alone. Similarly, I worship not the canvas and the paint on the icon, but give reverence to the image depicted." (This is not meant to be a verbatim quote, but it is the best as I could remember it).

Similarly with the Bible, or with any other Holy Book for that matter, although I can only talk of my own Tradition, it is not a book that one can defecate upon due to one's own ideology or conception of qualifications of holiness. It is a book whcih carries the message of salvation, not of anarchy or nihilistic tendencies.
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  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 22:59
Kaaba was befor islam the house of many idols and tin gods. How comes this building is converted now to the most important house for muslims? btw don't tell me becouse Abraham has built it there is no historical prove at it.
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  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 02:52

Originally posted by Maziar

Kaaba was befor islam the house of many idols and tin gods. How comes this building is converted now to the most important house for muslims? btw don't tell me becouse Abraham has built it there is no historical prove at it.

You're wrong.  According to Muslim tradition, and I'm assuming you're a Muslim (?), prophet Adam (peace be upon Him) was the one who had built the Honorable House of God.  Prophet Abraham (peace be upon Him) re-built the house. 

If you don't like the idea of the Ka'aba being the center point for Muslim prayers, where do you suggest it should be shifted to?  Karbala?

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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 04:31
Originally posted by Osmanli

I trully am shocked at comments by both Mila and Omar Al Hashim.

Originally posted by Mila

It's still open to interpretation, Osmanli. It's very dangerous to think you're way is the only way.

All the Koran says, and says many times, is that we should respect and follow Muhammed, the messenger - as well as other messengers. It says that Muhammed was a good example.

It does not say keep your beard this length, keep your clothing this length, sit like this, hold your fork like this, paint your walls this color, don't think for yourself, don't accept change. In many cases it says exactly the opposite of these things - such as when it instructs us not to take the teachings of others at face value but to explore and investigate everything for ourselves.

I agree with Omar. My Islam is not a personality cult and I will not live in the 1400s. If that means I'm going to hell, then fine. It is a conscious choice I am 100 per cent certain with and those consequences I can take. But I believe I'm not wrong or right, since the Koran does not condone or forbid it.

Again I agree 100% with mila. Being a muslim means accepting that the Qu'ran is the word of God and the example of the prophet as how to  practice the word of God.
The length of a beard is completely arbitrary, and has no effect as to how good a muslim you are. If you disagree Osmanli, prove to us how facial hair helps you be a better person.

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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 04:36
Maju wrote:
" They worship the words it contains. Words are objects as well: they aren't God. This I call book-idolatry."
I would rather think they worship the concept and meaning within the words rather than the words themselves, which would make it subjective. But this depends on the aproach each indiviadual muslim takes towards their religion/koran and better answered by them.

Isnt their a shiia sect in Iraq that consider the Koran a object within time?
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  Quote RomiosArktos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 05:56




Edited by RomiosArktos
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 06:13
I would return the insult Romios, but I have nothing against the Greek Church and won't makes baseless provokative statements about it.

Back to the topic, how do the Greeks treat the subject of icons and idols?
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  Quote Periander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 06:20
@Romios

Sources?

If memory serves me correctly, the Prophet was in contact with various Monophysites in his travels. Such a slur on Islam can have the undesired effect of actually hitting back on Christianity. (cf. Steven Runciman, Vol. 1)

@Omar

Please look up about 6 or 7 posts to see what I wrote (it is very brief, I know).
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 06:43
Omar al Hashim, thankyou for your restraint and i'm pretty p1ssed at such mindless posts myself.

RomiosArktos your trolling

Islam is very stict against idolatry, it would be very hard to show them practicing it. But my impressions (only from what i see though) is that shiites do come the closest. the way they carry pictures of their imams in processions; its like christians with their saints. Now that is my impression any shi'a can correct me here.

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  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 07:19

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Again I agree 100% with mila. Being a muslim means accepting that the Qu'ran is the word of God and the example of the prophet as how to  practice the word of God.
The length of a beard is completely arbitrary, and has no effect as to how good a muslim you are. If you disagree Osmanli, prove to us how facial hair helps you be a better person.

Salaamz Omar,

I think you misunderstood Osmanli's point.  Following the Prophet's sunnah is a personal choice, yes, but denying that we are urged to follow the Prophet's (peace be upon Him) example is wrong.

There are explicit ayyas regarding this. "Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." [3:31]

"So take what the Messenger assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you." [59:9]

"He who turns away from my sunnah is not from me." [Bukhari]

It is also worth mentioning that the Prophet's (peace be upon Him) sayings, which are part of His sunnah, are devine revelations.

"Nor doth he speak of (his own) desire. It is naught save an inspiration sent down to Him." [53:3-4]

Following His sunnah does not mean people worship Him.  It is a universal practice to always copy and follow the example of those whom  you love.

Isn't that what you meant, Osmanli?

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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 11:23
Originally posted by Leonidas

Islam is very stict against idolatry, it would be very hard to show them practicing it. But my impressions (only from what i see though) is that shiites do come the closest. the way they carry pictures of their imams in processions; its like christians with their saints. Now that is my impression any shi'a can correct me here.


Very strict. Idolatry is the only sin which can never be forgiven in Islam.
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  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 14:11
Originally posted by Mira

Originally posted by Maziar

Kaaba was befor islam the house of many idols and tin gods. How comes this building is converted now to the most important house for muslims? btw don't tell me becouse Abraham has built it there is no historical prove at it.

You're wrong.  According to Muslim tradition, and I'm assuming you're a Muslim (?), prophet Adam (peace be upon Him) was the one who had built the Honorable House of God.  Prophet Abraham (peace be upon Him) re-built the house. 

If you don't like the idea of the Ka'aba being the center point for Muslim prayers, where do you suggest it should be shifted to?  Karbala?

My Parents are Muslims, not me i am an atheist. Well the probleme is that i don't believe on stories like adam and eve, i believe on evolotion's theory of darwin. Anyway i wanted to know how comes Kaaba is so important, there is nothing disrespectfull, i only want to know the historical facts.

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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 14:39
Originally posted by Maziar

Well the probleme is that i don't believe on stories like adam and eve, i believe on evolotion's theory of darwin.


'We initiated your creation (khalaqa), and then we shaped you...' (7:11)

'And it is God who has created all 'dabbah' from the water...'

".........and We (God) made, from water, every living thing" (21:30)

"And He (God) created you in stages (or phases) "(71:14)

"Has there not been an endless time span when humans were not even a thing thought of? Verily, it is We who have khalaqed man out of a drop of sperm intermingled (with the female ovum)...We made him a being endowed with hearing and sight (ie; wisdom and reason)." (76:1-2)

I know it's open to interpretation, but I believe in evolution as well - and it's in these verses that I see it.
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  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 16:50

Originally posted by Mila

Originally posted by Maziar

Well the probleme is that i don't believe on stories like adam and eve, i believe on evolotion's theory of darwin.


'We initiated your creation (khalaqa), and then we shaped you...' (7:11)

'And it is God who has created all 'dabbah' from the water...'

".........and We (God) made, from water, every living thing" (21:30)

"And He (God) created you in stages (or phases) "(71:14)

"Has there not been an endless time span when humans were not even a thing thought of? Verily, it is We who have khalaqed man out of a drop of sperm intermingled (with the female ovum)...We made him a being endowed with hearing and sight (ie; wisdom and reason)." (76:1-2)

I know it's open to interpretation, but I believe in evolution as well - and it's in these verses that I see it.

I can see nothing in this vers which is compared with Darwin's evolotions theory.

Btw this translation you present is not accurate. "it is We who have khalaqed man out of a drop of sperm intermingled (with the female ovum)..." the word sperm is mentioned by translatore and it is not how the Quran means it. I have a better Quran for you. http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/htq/ . Well this one is more accurate.



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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 17:53
Originally posted by Mira

Originally posted by Maju

They worship the words it contains. Words are objects as well: they aren't God. This I call book-idolatry.


Believing in the content of the book and the book does not mean worshipping it.  Believing in God and worshipping Him is a totally different story.  We believe in the prophet Mohammed (peace be upon Him), but just like we don't worship Him, we don't worship the book.  I don't know where you got that from.


Believing those words are a the message of God is idolatry. It's not just a Muslim problem but one of all doctrinary religions. If all has been created by God (as creationists propose) then all is equally Divine: Quran and The Satanic Verses, Kaaba and any idol, the Bible and the Communist Manifesto... Believing acritically that one is better or more Divine than the other is book-idolatry and sectarism.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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  Quote ill_teknique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 21:11
Originally posted by Maziar

Originally posted by Mila

Originally posted by Maziar

Well the probleme is that i don't believe on stories like adam and eve, i believe on evolotion's theory of darwin.


'We initiated your creation (khalaqa), and then we shaped you...' (7:11)

'And it is God who has created all 'dabbah' from the water...'

".........and We (God) made, from water, every living thing" (21:30)

"And He (God) created you in stages (or phases) "(71:14)

"Has there not been an endless time span when humans were not even a thing thought of? Verily, it is We who have khalaqed man out of a drop of sperm intermingled (with the female ovum)...We made him a being endowed with hearing and sight (ie; wisdom and reason)." (76:1-2)

I know it's open to interpretation, but I believe in evolution as well - and it's in these verses that I see it.

I can see nothing in this vers which is compared with Darwin's evolotions theory.

Btw this translation you present is not accurate. "it is We who have khalaqed man out of a drop of sperm intermingled (with the female ovum)..." the word sperm is mentioned by translatore and it is not how the Quran means it. I have a better Quran for you. http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/htq/ . Well this one is more accurate.



because you dont want to see it
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 23:40
I'll start a new thread for evolution, I think.
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