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Muslims and Idolatry |
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Mira 
Colonel 
Joined: 03-Aug-2005 Location: United Arab Emirates Online Status: Offline Posts: 697 |
 Quote Reply
 Topic: Muslims and IdolatryPosted: 29-Jan-2006 at 22:20 |
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I have no objection or problem as to how you see yourself. However, the scientific theory you believe in has so many flaws (which I'm not going to go through here - you may google it up, if you want) that are still debated in the scientific arena. If the scientific evidence available was adequate, Einstein would have been first to believe in it! |
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Omar al Hashim
King 
Suspended Joined: 05-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5697 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 23:21 |
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I am shocked. Who are you to comment on the strength of anyones faith? That is a grevious insult, which in many parts of pakistan would leave you a marked man Osmanli. No-one is dening that you should follow the example of the prophet. No-one is dening that Muhammad(pbuh) is the messenger of God. The Shahada states, There is no god but God. Sometimes translated into english as There is nothing worthy of worship except God. Muhammad (pbuh) was a man, and should not be worshipped. "To anyone who worshipped Muhammad, let him know that he is dead, but to anyone who worshipped Allah, let him know that he is alive and cannot die." - Abu Bakr on the death of the prophet. The point of contention, is where you draw the line between, following the Prophet, and worshipping him. I draw that line at
(Within the bounds of modesty of course) I don't care if someone goes out drinking or gambling all the time, you still cannot call them munafiq. You say, you shouldn't do that, or your not being a good muslim, but you do not ever call them munafiq. That is haram, and a very bad sin. |
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Maziar
Chieftain 
Arteshbod Joined: 06-Nov-2005 Location: Germany Online Status: Offline Posts: 1155 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 23:38 |
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It seems to me you claime we are all apes and only you are descendant of real human, although real humans were apes befor, like it or not. I am very sure you have not fallen from the heaven. Einstein has never rejected evolution's theory completely, he thinks this theory is not perfect and factually it has some mistakes, which must be corrected. And offcourse evolution's theory opposes in many points the relativity's theory. If he wanted to reject it completely, he never wanted to replace it with Adam and Eve or any religious myth, but rather a scientical and terrestrial solution. Edited by Maziar |
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Maziar
Chieftain
Arteshbod Joined: 06-Nov-2005 Location: Germany Online Status: Offline Posts: 1155 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 23:48 |
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Although we are not the same opinion, but i realize you as a tolerant person. You deserve my respect. |
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Omar al Hashim
King
Suspended Joined: 05-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5697 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 02:15 |
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Thank you very much. |
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Leonardo
General 
Joined: 13-Jan-2006 Location: Italy Online Status: Offline Posts: 778 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 03:08 |
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Why do you think that Einstein didn't believe in evolution theory? I'm just curious ... |
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Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6565 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 03:24 |
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Didn't he? He had problems with quantum mechanics but I never heard that he had with standard biology. |
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NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
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Periander
Knight 
Joined: 25-Jan-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 77 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 03:25 |
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WARNING: EXTREMELY OT POST FOLLOWS!
Omar, Please forgive my ignorance. In your reply to Osmanli, you write the following letters following on from the name of the Prophet: "pbuh". What does that mean? |
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Omar al Hashim
King
Suspended Joined: 05-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5697 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 03:25 |
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peace be upon him
Whats an extremely OT post? Edited by Omar al Hashim |
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Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6565 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 03:40 |
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Why have I never heard before about Einstein's buts to evolutionary biology? Where did you get that from? He did have buts about quantum mechanics, another widely proven theory, but this seems to have caused out of his prejudices about how God is supposed to act ("God doesn't gamble"), not his scientific thought. He actually made a major effort in his late years to disprove quantum mechanics, which is in the bases of such techs as nuclear energy. Yet he dramatically failed. In once occasion he was reading a self-written paper on that when he realized he had comitted a major error and left the stage ashamed. Like quantum mechanics, evolutionary biology is behind many technological applications, such as bio-farmacology or the controversial GMOs, which couldn't exist without it. It's not just widely proven but experimentally demonstrated. Evolutionary biology isn't debated as such in the scientific arena. Of course there is debate on the details and science should never close its doors to serious debate. But evolution itself is only challenged in the media by fanatics of all sorts. No serious biologist would. Not at this stage. A religious scientist can maybe prefer the ID explanation to feel more confortable within his ideological frame but that's not science: it's philosophy: putting God in the process of evolution as an orchestral director that makes sure that the performance is perfect. I'm not going to discuss that: it's not science but a speculative conciliation of creationist exotheism with scienctifical knowledge. There is not any problem with evolutionary biology, as there is no problem with plate techntonics or with quantum mechanics. All them are major paradigms in their respective fields and have survived and even been reinforced by the baseless attacks of the fanatic hordes of ignorance. I suggest you to study the matter in depth so you can have a based opinion. |
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NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
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Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6565 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 03:44 |
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Just relized that we are discussing evolution and religion when there's
another topi on it in this same subforum. This is about idolatry, not
evolution.
OT should be "off topic". Just what I did.  |
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NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
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Omar al Hashim
King
Suspended Joined: 05-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5697 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 03:58 |
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Actually Maju. Those failed proofs are still up for questioning. I once went to a seminar at uni (Australian National University) where they were describing the teleporter they had built. (It actually made a clone of a photon, but is considered a teleporter). I hardly understood how it worked, but apparently the whole reason was because of one of einstiens proofs that quantum mechanics didn't exist. So both quantum mechanics and the proof that it doesn't exist, were combined to create a teleporter. Unfortunately I can't remember the details. |
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Periander
Knight
Joined: 25-Jan-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 77 |
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Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 04:10 |
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Well, do I feel embarassed?! Thank you for your patience. OT= Off=Topic |
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Mira
Colonel
Joined: 03-Aug-2005 Location: United Arab Emirates Online Status: Offline Posts: 697 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 04:26 |
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I never said you were descandants of apes. You're the ones who believe that about yourselves. And I never said I had fallen from heaven, but yes, I believe the human species is distinct, and couldn't have evolved from anything. How else do you explain that ever since our alleged evolution to the complex beings we are now, we haven't shown any evolutionary progress? So the evolution process stopped right here, you say? Sounds bogus to me. I'm satisfied with what I believe in, and I realize you are, too, with what you believe in. I respect that.
You can google that up, Leonardo. It's all on the internet.
Maybe because you weren't looking for it? |
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Leonardo
General
Joined: 13-Jan-2006 Location: Italy Online Status: Offline Posts: 778 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 05:32 |
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I've entered on google "Einstein evolution theory" but I've found only these ! : http://www.google.it/search?hl=it&q=%22einstein+evolutio n+theory%22&btnG=Cerca&meta=lr%3Dlang_en |
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OSMANLI
Colonel
Joined: 24-Nov-2004 Location: North Cyprus Online Status: Offline Posts: 740 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 08:01 |
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No, how dare you Omar, you once again have commented with little or very basic knowledge, on Islam. I have already explained what a munafiq is, and no it is NOT as you mentioned a person that drinks or gambles as you quite wrongly presume. "which in many parts of pakistan would leave you a marked man Osmanli."
"Muhammad (pbuh) was a man, and should not be worshipped." That right, doing so would be considered associating partners with Allah. But do you think by twisting what i say will prove anything? I did not say that we worship the Prophet PBUH, i even mentioned the Shahada which goes against such claims. La ilaha illala Muhamadu rasulullah There is no God but God (Allah) and Muhammad is his messenger Thus Muslims belive the Muhammad PBUH to be a messenger and NOT A THREAT Mila: " Mohammed is the bigger threat " What exactly does a messenger do? They deliver a message. Who exactly is the message from for the belief of a Muslim? Allah (God) Its quite simple, nothing hard to grasp here. "Believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered Prophet who believes in Allah and his words. Follow him, perhaps you will be guided." (7:157) This is one of many examples from the Qur'an the mentions to follow the Sunnah for the sake of Allah. You see to actually prove anything you need sources. You claim to speak in the name of Islam, then prove yourself via the correct sources. If you do not belive in the Qur'an then that is up to you. I shall respect your honesty and belief's "keep your beard this length, keep your clothing this length, sit like this, hold your fork like this, paint your walls this color" O, haha. Islam is being mocked, yet no one says anything. I defend my religion and people are 'shocked'. Maziar, your earlier comment about being 'nervous', what was that about? If you are going to be so disrespectfull to religions then i openly challenge you or anyone to open a topic on such issues, then PM telling me when you have done so. Iam never 'nervous' on the issue of Islam, becuase " verily in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find rest" |
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Mira
Colonel
Joined: 03-Aug-2005 Location: United Arab Emirates Online Status: Offline Posts: 697 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 08:13 |
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I don't know if putting words between quotes is necessarily the best way to use google, but I really didn't know they put up scientific journal articles for free on the internet? Be ready to pay if you're looking for something worth reading. In any case, the journal article I had read a couple of years ago talked about Science vs Religion. It started off with a quote by Einstein (which I don't remember exactly), in which he says that science without religion is inadequate, and vice versa. Anyway, the author discusses Einstein's belief, and then he argues that although he was not at all religious, Einstein did believe in the existence of a non-personal Creator (whatever that means), who is in control of the creation, which explains why his position regarding the evolutionary theory was that (something to this effect), "If the evolution theory was real, then there must have been a 'Designer' who used evolution as a method to get us where we are today." If I find the details of that article, I'll certainly share. Edited by Mira |
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Maziar
Chieftain
Arteshbod Joined: 06-Nov-2005 Location: Germany Online Status: Offline Posts: 1155 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 14:57 |
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This was my main question:
No one gave me an answer to it, instead i was attacked from all sides for the minor points on my question, so i was wondered. |
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Omar al Hashim
King
Suspended Joined: 05-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5697 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 20:54 |
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You are in no position to judge on my knowledge of Islam, and you should not make unfounded accusations of things which you have no knowledge of.
A munafiq Osmanli, is not someone who:
An Munafiq, is a pretender, a hypocrite, someone who pretends to be a muslim while in their hearts not believing at all. They may be the most learned person but not believe in their hearts. Someone who believes in all their heart but does not understand is not munafiq! And only Allah is in a position to judge what is in a mans heart. http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&lr=&oi=defmo re&defl=en&q=define:munafiq
My point is think before you speak, otherwise you could get yourself into much trouble in both worlds.
So whats your arguement then? Because mine was saying that you should not worship Muhammad (pbuh) as an idol, but worship God.
You have completely misunderstood that and taken it out of context. Lets look at the whole sentence:
Perhaps my english is better than yours, let me help you. There are about 1.5 billion muslims in the world and growing each day. Theoritically, some of these are not true muslims at all but munafiq (theoritcally because no man is in a position to judge). These may worship instead of God, other objects/people that are associated with Islam. The thread was opened suggesting that the Qu'ran or kaaba, are these objects. Mila said that it is more likely that people worship Muhammad (pbuh) than the Qu'ran or kaaba. Clearly to you and I Osmanli, we know you should only Worship God. La ilaha illala the Threat, is Idoletry, not Muhammad(pbuh). Do you deny that Idoletry is wrong?
clearly
Absolutely, but I haven't actually said anything contentious, just stated things that should be common knowledge to anyone who knows anything about Islam, and I didn't think that I would need to look up references to things that extremely basic belief. You are the one, who has stated fundamental verses that everyone accepts and then compeletly seperately made outrageous statements about a persons faith. Without, I suspect, even understanding what we are talking about!
Islam being mocked!?! It is they who practice this who are mocking Islam, hiding the message behind culture and tradition. People who are so far out of touch with the message they think that the colour of your walls will help you reach heaven. ADDITION: But you cannot call them munafiq, they may have the best intentions, and just not understand.
Openly disrespectful to religions, you are the only one who has been disrespectful to someones religon on this thread, and thats your own. You certainly do seem nevous too. Changing the meaning of statements to infer disrespect and then greviously insulting them. Jumping at the slightest moment. Edited by Omar al Hashim |
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Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6565 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 21:37 |
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It must be in Arabic. That something is in the Internet is (in itslef proof of nothing): according to the Net atlantis has been found in about 125 different settings, Elvis Presley is alive and Arabia is a department of Bhutan.
I'v read some of Einstein's works (particularly those on philosophy) and others' works mentioning Einstein if he ever said such thing I should know. So start quoting date and place or book where he said that. Anyhow, that Einstein or the Pope could be against something that doesn't disprove it, obviously. |
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NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
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, I do not act in a manner which will please parts of Pakistan. I have never even been there nor do i have plans to go there.
. Islam is not for hiding.
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