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Loknar
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Topic: Muslims and Idolatry Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 17:38 |
I know Muslims do not worship idols. (though I I believe they worship one)
Something occurred to me when I was reading a thread here. The Muslims turn toward the Kabah 5 times a day and pray. When in Mecca Muslims bow before it as if it were some kind of god.
I may be incorrect though, about Muslims bowing to the Kaba or facing the Kaba when they pray 5 times a day, if i am sorry.
in any event, why is the Kabah held in such high regard, it is only a man made object. It is no different than that old wall in Jersalem.
I am a Christian, and one thing I do not agree with is the wearing of the cross, I believe it is idolatry and I think connection to objects is a from of idolatry.
If somebody destroyed St. peters Basilica Id be pissed off because off its historic significance. If the true cross was found, and burned, I wouldnt care. There are all mere objects as the Kaba is.
Bah this is rant hope you agree/disagree.
Edited by Loknar
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Maju
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Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 18:02 |
More thank Kaaba, which after all is just a symbol - a focus
point, I'm worried about the idolatric veneration in which words
rather than facts seen to be held in Abrahamanic (and other religions).
I personally regard the so called holy books as book-idols.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Loknar
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Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 18:53 |
Yes that is another thing, Muslims wash their hands before the handle the Koran.
A book is mere print and words. When a bible gets old and worn out I see nothing wrong with throwing it out and buying a new one. The real crime according to the bible is actually altering its meaning.
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Paul
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Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 20:07 |
Originally posted by Loknar
Yes that is another thing, Muslims wash their hands before the handle the Koran.
A book is mere print and words. When a bible gets old and worn out I see nothing wrong with throwing it out and buying a new one. The real crime according to the bible is actually altering its meaning.
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So you don't mind flag burning then.
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Mila
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Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 20:32 |
In my mind it's just because it's a piece of God, Loknar. We believe
the Koran is the last testament - but it's different from the old and
new testaments because it comes directly from God. So it's something
very important just to show the book horrendous amounts of respect. But
it's not like I worship it or anything. If someone put a gun to my
head, I could burn one - whatever. I could never deny God, though. So
it's that, for me at least. Just a matter of respect, ettiquet.
It's like ritualistic prayer. It's almost meditative to go through the
preparation process for prayer. But I'm not thjinking about Koran, or
Kaaba. I'm thinking about God.
EDIT: If you're going to talk about idolatry in Islam, I'd say Mohammed
is the bigger threat than kaaba or koran. Especially among those who
think they have to live literally just like him, in the 600s.
Edited by Mila
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Maju
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Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 20:56 |
Originally posted by Mila
EDIT: If you're going to talk about idolatry in Islam, I'd say Mohammed
is the bigger threat than kaaba or koran. Especially among those who
think they have to live literally just like him, in the 600s.
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I see: because he is the messenger, not the model, am I wrong?
Interestig viewpoint, though I never thought worshipping people as idolatry (worshipping objects) but as personality cult.
I personally wonder why has people to worship at all. God gets nothing
from that and people would be mentally healthier if they just venerated
or respected it.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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ill_teknique
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Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 21:40 |
The Kaaba is the original house of worship that is why its a focuspoint of prayer. Not an idol
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 22:58 |
I agree with Mila, there are alot of people who run around saying, "to
be a muslim your beard must be such and such a length" and stuff like
that which is completely missing the point of Islam and in my opinion
detracts from it.
Although Modern Wahhabi's are often the propagators of such stuff. The
man Wahhab in the 18th centuary, was actually tring to root out many
such practices.
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Loknar
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Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 23:45 |
Mila:
I hold the bible in such reverence. The Bible is, as Christians, directly inspired by Gods spirit (in other words, Gods Holy Spirit motivated those men to write the bible, though under his direction).
Paul: Fine with me, I dont care. Though I think a person who burns the flag looks like an ass doing it.
The point of my thread is this, even though in doctrine Christian faiths and Islamic faith claim not to be idolistic, I believe they are. I believe when you turn to an object to pay it reverence it is a form of worship. How is a cross going to save you? I'd just as soon stomp a cross into the ground than wear one. If my friend was killed by a gun I wouldnt go around wearing a gun thats for sure...
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 00:13 |
You do have a point I think.
Although I would maintain that most muslims do not pray to any idols
and treat the Kaaba just as a direction. Treating the Qu'ran with
respect, is not respect to the book, but to whats contained in the
book, as in the word of God. I think the Bible should also be treated
with respect.
On the other hand, the length of a beard, or praying at 'saints' tombs I consider close to idoletry.
On a side. The Saudi's recently demolished the prophets house in Medina
because they considered people to be worshipping Muhammad and not God
because of it. The custodian of the house made detailed plans before it
was destroyed.
The Orthodox Churches are very icondule, and had major fights in
Byzantine times against Iconclasts, who belived that Icons were akin to
Idols.
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Loknar
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Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 00:29 |
double post
Edited by Loknar
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azimuth
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Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 02:28 |
praying to the direction of the Kaabah is an order from God to muslims (written in the Quran), the bowing and the rest of the praying moves are to God not the Kaabah.
having one point for all muslims to pray toward is just a forum of Unity in Islam.
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Omar, Prophat's house wasn't demolished, its inside the Mosque where the prophet is Burried.
Prophet's Birth place in Makkah is a library now.
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 03:18 |
Sorry, it appears only under threat. According to this site at least
http://makhoudjit.blogspot.com/2005/11/saudi-arabia-demoli shing-history.html
Some of Islam's historic sites in Mecca, possibly including a home of
the Prophet Mohammad peace be upon him, are under threat from Saudi
real estate developers and Wahhabi Muslims who view them as promoting idolatry.
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Maju
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Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 03:47 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
Sorry, it appears only under threat. According to this site at least
http://makhoudjit.blogspot.com/2005/11/saudi-arabia-demoli shing-history.html
Some of Islam's historic sites in Mecca, possibly including a home of
the Prophet Mohammad peace be upon him, are under threat from Saudi
real estate developers and Wahhabi Muslims who view them as promoting idolatry.
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It's horrible!
"What we are witnessing are the last days of Mecca and Medina".
"This is the end of history in Mecca and Medina and the end of their future".
What kind of religious idiots are those that even destroy their own heritage?
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 04:31 |
hear hear.
I think there is a difference between Idolatry and history.
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Leonidas
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Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 05:03 |
I dont think showing a high level of respect to a book is idolatry, its reverence maybe, but they dont worship the book itself just whats in it..
Worshiping an object is idolatry as far as i know, and i cannot think of any object that is worshiped in islam.
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Mira
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Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 06:09 |
The Ka'aba, (Bayt Allah
al-haram; the Honorable House of God), is believed to be a holy spot on
earth, not only because it was built by the prophet Abraham (peace be
upon Him), but also because Muslims believe that there's a similar
house built right on top of it, in heaven, where all the angels worship
facing it every day. It's basically the meeting point, where all
God's creatures supposedly turn to every day to worship.
It's purpose is to give a sense of uniformity, so that all Muslims
around the world will have this thing in common. So whatever your
madhhab (sect) is, as long as you are a Muslim, you'll always turn to the Ka'aba to pray.
The bowing, or prostrating, is not done for the Ka'aba; it's a symbolic unit of prayer that is done for Allah.
The Qu'ran is also not worshipped, neither its content. According
to Muslim faith, you communicate with God through prayers, and He (swt)
communicates with you through the Qur'an.
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OSMANLI
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Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 14:36 |
I trully am shocked at comments by both Mila and Omar Al Hashim. Please if you are to have comments that are blatently contravertial PLEASE use evidence. You both claim believe in the word of Allah in the Qur'an, then please use this as a reference. I hope that you will not take my comments to heart, however with your misguided information on Islam you are giving a false impresion to our fellow members.
"If you're going to talk about idolatry in Islam, I'd say Mohammed is the bigger threat than kaaba or koran. Especially among those who think they have to live literally just like him, in the 600s."
The obligation to follow him and obey his Sunnah (actions of Muhammad, Peace and Blessings be Upon Him)
As for the obligation to follow him and obey his sunnah and follow his guidance, Allh says, "Say: if you love Allh, follow me and He will love you and forgive you your wrong actions." (3:31) "Believe in Allh and His Messenger, the unlettered Prophet who believes in Allh and His words. Follow him, perhaps you will be guided." (7:157) "No, by your Lord, they will not believe until they ask you to judge between them in what they disagree about and then they shall find in themselves no impediment touching your verdict, but shall surrender in full submission." (4:64) i.e. obey your judgement.
Allh also says, "You have a good model in the Messenger of Allh for one who hopes for Allh and the Last Day." (33:21)
Back to the topic about the Kaba:
"Behold! We gave the site, To Abraham, of the (Sacred) House (i.e., the Kaaba), (Saying): 'Associate not anything (In worship) with Me; And sanctify My House For those who compass it round, Or stand up, Or bow, or prostrate themselves (Therein in prayer). And proclaim the Pilgrimage among men: they will come to thee on foot and (mounted) on every kind of camel, lean on account of journeys through deep and distant mountain highways; (The Noble Quran, 22:26-27)"
"Say: 'O People of the Book (i.e., Jews and Christians)! Come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah.' If then they turn back, say ye: 'Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).' (The Noble Quran, 3:64)"
"God forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with God is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed. (The Noble Quran, 4:48)"
"Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to God, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true in Faith? For God did take Abraham for a friend. (The Noble Quran, 4:125)"
Taken from, http://www.answering-christianity.com/que11.htm
Peace,
OSMANLI
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Mila
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Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 16:02 |
It's still open to interpretation, Osmanli. It's very dangerous to think you're way is the only way.
All the Koran says, and says many times, is that we should respect and
follow Muhammed, the messenger - as well as other messengers. It says
that Muhammed was a good example.
It does not say keep your beard
this length, keep your clothing this length, sit like this, hold your
fork like this, paint your walls this color, don't think for yourself,
don't accept change. In many cases it says exactly the opposite of
these things - such as when it instructs us not to take the teachings
of others at face value but to explore and investigate everything for
ourselves.
I agree with Omar. My Islam is not a personality cult and I will not
live in the 1400s. If that means I'm going to hell, then fine. It is a
conscious choice I am 100 per cent certain with and those consequences
I can take. But I believe I'm not wrong or right, since the Koran does
not condone or forbid it.
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Maju
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Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 20:23 |
Originally posted by Leonidas
I dont think showing a high level of respect to a book is idolatry, its reverence maybe, but they dont worship the book itself just whats in it..
Worshiping an object is idolatry as far as i know, and i cannot think of any object that is worshiped in islam.
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They worship the words it contains. Words are objects as well: they aren't God. This I call book-idolatry.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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