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Muslims and Idolatry
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Maziar View Drop Down
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Arteshbod

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Posts: 1155 		  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Muslims and Idolatry
    Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 11:53
Originally posted by OSMANLI

Those that use their brain will actually look into why the majority of the world follows religion. Thus actually looking into their holy scriptures. Since you think a religion that came 1427 years ago is anciant, seems to imply how much you actually know.

The religion has came 1400 years befor, but it traditions and stories are several years old. Never heard of jewish elements of Islam? only ancient myth.

Btw, why are you all get nervouse? we are only discusing.



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Posts: 740 		  Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 11:42

Those that use their brain will actually look into why the majority of the world follows religion. Thus actually looking into their holy scriptures. Since you think a religion that came 1427 years ago is anciant, seems to imply how much you actually know.
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Posts: 1155 		  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 10:55
Originally posted by ill_teknique

Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by Mila

Originally posted by Leonidas

Islam is very stict against idolatry, it would be very hard to show them practicing it. But my impressions (only from what i see though) is that shiites do come the closest. the way they carry pictures of their imams in processions; its like christians with their saints. Now that is my impression any shi'a can correct me here.


Very strict. Idolatry is the only sin which can never be forgiven in Islam.

To allege that God, the all-merciful, cannot forgive a sin, no matter what, is to place limitations on both his power and his mercy.

You may or may not be right to say that a certain sin will not be forgiven, but it is surely heretical to say it cannot be forgiven.

 


Well actually I read about some sunna where it mentions allah forgiving a atheist

 Atheists have no need to be forgiven. Forgiven for what? becouse they use their brain befor they believe in an ancient myth?



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Posts: 697 		  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 10:11
Originally posted by ill_teknique

Well actually I read about some sunna where it mentions allah forgiving a atheist


You might want to support with evidence.
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Posts: 636 		  Quote ill_teknique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 09:03
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by Mila

Originally posted by Leonidas

Islam is very stict against idolatry, it would be very hard to show them practicing it. But my impressions (only from what i see though) is that shiites do come the closest. the way they carry pictures of their imams in processions; its like christians with their saints. Now that is my impression any shi'a can correct me here.


Very strict. Idolatry is the only sin which can never be forgiven in Islam.

To allege that God, the all-merciful, cannot forgive a sin, no matter what, is to place limitations on both his power and his mercy.

You may or may not be right to say that a certain sin will not be forgiven, but it is surely heretical to say it cannot be forgiven.

 


Well actually I read about some sunna where it mentions allah forgiving a atheist

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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 08:10

Originally posted by Mila

Originally posted by Leonidas

Islam is very stict against idolatry, it would be very hard to show them practicing it. But my impressions (only from what i see though) is that shiites do come the closest. the way they carry pictures of their imams in processions; its like christians with their saints. Now that is my impression any shi'a can correct me here.


Very strict. Idolatry is the only sin which can never be forgiven in Islam.

To allege that God, the all-merciful, cannot forgive a sin, no matter what, is to place limitations on both his power and his mercy.

You may or may not be right to say that a certain sin will not be forgiven, but it is surely heretical to say it cannot be forgiven.

 
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Posts: 740 		  Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 05:37

Mila dont try and twist what i, the Qur'an or the Sunnah are teaching.

The beard that you keep on mentioning is a SUNNAH, meaning it is not compulsary. Those that want to show their love for the Prophet (PBUH) try to copy the beard. Are we to judge a person by his facial hair? is that modern?

First you must learn what Fardh, Sunnat, Wahajib etc are before you feel free to comment in the name of Islam.

Mila says:

"EDIT: If you're going to talk about idolatry in Islam, I'd say Mohammed is the bigger threat than kaaba or koran. Especially among those who think they have to live literally just like him, in the 600s."

Muhammad PBUH a threat? infact your comment must have been worse since you felt the need to edit it. This comment it self could take you out of the fold of Islam since it goes directly against the 1st piller of Islam, the Shahada which is the core of the faith.

At the very least your comments would make you a 'munafiq'. This is a class of people that know something about Islam and then say they are part of it. However, they disobey the commandments of Allah and spend their time trying to divide people and make them into munafiks also.

Please i know that my comments may come across as harsh, i dont mean any offence. But rather i feel that i must tell you for your benefit. If you have a personal opinion and you stated that this is Mila's opinion then i would not have commented. However claiming that your opinion derives fromt the true Islam is why i have felt the need to comment.

Kindest Regards,

OSMANLI
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Posts: 1155 		  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 23:46
Originally posted by ill_teknique

Originally posted by Maziar

Originally posted by Mila

Originally posted by Maziar

Well the probleme is that i don't believe on stories like adam and eve, i believe on evolotion's theory of darwin.


'We initiated your creation (khalaqa), and then we shaped you...' (7:11)

'And it is God who has created all 'dabbah' from the water...'

".........and We (God) made, from water, every living thing" (21:30)

"And He (God) created you in stages (or phases) "(71:14)

"Has there not been an endless time span when humans were not even a thing thought of? Verily, it is We who have khalaqed man out of a drop of sperm intermingled (with the female ovum)...We made him a being endowed with hearing and sight (ie; wisdom and reason)." (76:1-2)

I know it's open to interpretation, but I believe in evolution as well - and it's in these verses that I see it.

I can see nothing in this vers which is compared with Darwin's evolotions theory.

Btw this translation you present is not accurate. "it is We who have khalaqed man out of a drop of sperm intermingled (with the female ovum)..." the word sperm is mentioned by translatore and it is not how the Quran means it. I have a better Quran for you. http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/htq/ . Well this one is more accurate.



because you dont want to see it

How can you be so naive?
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 23:40
I'll start a new thread for evolution, I think.
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Posts: 636 		  Quote ill_teknique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 21:11
Originally posted by Maziar

Originally posted by Mila

Originally posted by Maziar

Well the probleme is that i don't believe on stories like adam and eve, i believe on evolotion's theory of darwin.


'We initiated your creation (khalaqa), and then we shaped you...' (7:11)

'And it is God who has created all 'dabbah' from the water...'

".........and We (God) made, from water, every living thing" (21:30)

"And He (God) created you in stages (or phases) "(71:14)

"Has there not been an endless time span when humans were not even a thing thought of? Verily, it is We who have khalaqed man out of a drop of sperm intermingled (with the female ovum)...We made him a being endowed with hearing and sight (ie; wisdom and reason)." (76:1-2)

I know it's open to interpretation, but I believe in evolution as well - and it's in these verses that I see it.

I can see nothing in this vers which is compared with Darwin's evolotions theory.

Btw this translation you present is not accurate. "it is We who have khalaqed man out of a drop of sperm intermingled (with the female ovum)..." the word sperm is mentioned by translatore and it is not how the Quran means it. I have a better Quran for you. http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/htq/ . Well this one is more accurate.



because you dont want to see it
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Maju View Drop Down
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 17:53
Originally posted by Mira

Originally posted by Maju

They worship the words it contains. Words are objects as well: they aren't God. This I call book-idolatry.


Believing in the content of the book and the book does not mean worshipping it.  Believing in God and worshipping Him is a totally different story.  We believe in the prophet Mohammed (peace be upon Him), but just like we don't worship Him, we don't worship the book.  I don't know where you got that from.


Believing those words are a the message of God is idolatry. It's not just a Muslim problem but one of all doctrinary religions. If all has been created by God (as creationists propose) then all is equally Divine: Quran and The Satanic Verses, Kaaba and any idol, the Bible and the Communist Manifesto... Believing acritically that one is better or more Divine than the other is book-idolatry and sectarism.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Posts: 1155 		  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 16:50

Originally posted by Mila

Originally posted by Maziar

Well the probleme is that i don't believe on stories like adam and eve, i believe on evolotion's theory of darwin.


'We initiated your creation (khalaqa), and then we shaped you...' (7:11)

'And it is God who has created all 'dabbah' from the water...'

".........and We (God) made, from water, every living thing" (21:30)

"And He (God) created you in stages (or phases) "(71:14)

"Has there not been an endless time span when humans were not even a thing thought of? Verily, it is We who have khalaqed man out of a drop of sperm intermingled (with the female ovum)...We made him a being endowed with hearing and sight (ie; wisdom and reason)." (76:1-2)

I know it's open to interpretation, but I believe in evolution as well - and it's in these verses that I see it.

I can see nothing in this vers which is compared with Darwin's evolotions theory.

Btw this translation you present is not accurate. "it is We who have khalaqed man out of a drop of sperm intermingled (with the female ovum)..." the word sperm is mentioned by translatore and it is not how the Quran means it. I have a better Quran for you. http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/htq/ . Well this one is more accurate.



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Posts: 4030 		  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 14:39
Originally posted by Maziar

Well the probleme is that i don't believe on stories like adam and eve, i believe on evolotion's theory of darwin.


'We initiated your creation (khalaqa), and then we shaped you...' (7:11)

'And it is God who has created all 'dabbah' from the water...'

".........and We (God) made, from water, every living thing" (21:30)

"And He (God) created you in stages (or phases) "(71:14)

"Has there not been an endless time span when humans were not even a thing thought of? Verily, it is We who have khalaqed man out of a drop of sperm intermingled (with the female ovum)...We made him a being endowed with hearing and sight (ie; wisdom and reason)." (76:1-2)

I know it's open to interpretation, but I believe in evolution as well - and it's in these verses that I see it.
[IMG]http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/9259/1xw2.jpg">
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Posts: 1155 		  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 14:11
Originally posted by Mira

Originally posted by Maziar

Kaaba was befor islam the house of many idols and tin gods. How comes this building is converted now to the most important house for muslims? btw don't tell me becouse Abraham has built it there is no historical prove at it.

You're wrong.  According to Muslim tradition, and I'm assuming you're a Muslim (?), prophet Adam (peace be upon Him) was the one who had built the Honorable House of God.  Prophet Abraham (peace be upon Him) re-built the house. 

If you don't like the idea of the Ka'aba being the center point for Muslim prayers, where do you suggest it should be shifted to?  Karbala?

My Parents are Muslims, not me i am an atheist. Well the probleme is that i don't believe on stories like adam and eve, i believe on evolotion's theory of darwin. Anyway i wanted to know how comes Kaaba is so important, there is nothing disrespectfull, i only want to know the historical facts.
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Posts: 4030 		  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 11:23
Originally posted by Leonidas

Islam is very stict against idolatry, it would be very hard to show them practicing it. But my impressions (only from what i see though) is that shiites do come the closest. the way they carry pictures of their imams in processions; its like christians with their saints. Now that is my impression any shi'a can correct me here.


Very strict. Idolatry is the only sin which can never be forgiven in Islam.
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Posts: 697 		  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 07:19

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Again I agree 100% with mila. Being a muslim means accepting that the Qu'ran is the word of God and the example of the prophet as how to  practice the word of God.
The length of a beard is completely arbitrary, and has no effect as to how good a muslim you are. If you disagree Osmanli, prove to us how facial hair helps you be a better person.

Salaamz Omar,

I think you misunderstood Osmanli's point.  Following the Prophet's sunnah is a personal choice, yes, but denying that we are urged to follow the Prophet's (peace be upon Him) example is wrong.

There are explicit ayyas regarding this. "Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." [3:31]

"So take what the Messenger assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you." [59:9]

"He who turns away from my sunnah is not from me." [Bukhari]

It is also worth mentioning that the Prophet's (peace be upon Him) sayings, which are part of His sunnah, are devine revelations.

"Nor doth he speak of (his own) desire. It is naught save an inspiration sent down to Him." [53:3-4]

Following His sunnah does not mean people worship Him.  It is a universal practice to always copy and follow the example of those whom  you love.

Isn't that what you meant, Osmanli?
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 06:43
Omar al Hashim, thankyou for your restraint and i'm pretty p1ssed at such mindless posts myself.

RomiosArktos your trolling

Islam is very stict against idolatry, it would be very hard to show them practicing it. But my impressions (only from what i see though) is that shiites do come the closest. the way they carry pictures of their imams in processions; its like christians with their saints. Now that is my impression any shi'a can correct me here.
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Posts: 77 		  Quote Periander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 06:20
@Romios

Sources?

If memory serves me correctly, the Prophet was in contact with various Monophysites in his travels. Such a slur on Islam can have the undesired effect of actually hitting back on Christianity. (cf. Steven Runciman, Vol. 1)

@Omar

Please look up about 6 or 7 posts to see what I wrote (it is very brief, I know).
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 06:13
I would return the insult Romios, but I have nothing against the Greek Church and won't makes baseless provokative statements about it.

Back to the topic, how do the Greeks treat the subject of icons and idols?
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Posts: 309 		  Quote RomiosArktos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 05:56




Edited by RomiosArktos
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