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Muslims and Idolatry

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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Muslims and Idolatry
    Posted: 14-Oct-2006 at 01:34
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

This seems to be borrowed from the older philosophies.
anyway, theologically speaking A representation of something in some form or by some form or through some form would be what is called idolatory, only difference being that the form would be different. It could be material or abstract, living or non living.
 
That definition needs more cooking in its essense and less spices in wording.
According to this, Christians using the Cross as a representation of the Christ, God, or salvation are idolators.
Believe me, it is not so hard to understand this. A- you want people to line up and pray in a uniform fashion B- you want them all to face the same direction, same destination anywhere on the globe, C- you decide a center for this global congression. Simple.
Borrowed from older philosophies? elaborate please.
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 03:13
This seems to be borrowed from the older philosophies.
anyway, theologically speaking A representation of something in some form or by some form or through some form would be what is called idolatory, only difference being that the form would be different. It could be material or abstract, living or non living.



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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 14:18
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

Good philosophy. What does it say about the blood of a non muslim / kafir ?
 
it says what it says in the Quran, verse 32 of chapter 5:
"if any one slew a person, unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land, it would be as if he slew the whole people, and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people"
 
The example of a Muslim blood was drawn because no doubt that Muslims value Ka'bah and many of them do not know that it is a representation. Its value is in its representation, not the stones itself. It simply says, this Kabah that more than a billion Muslims bow to it everyday, worth less than a drop of blood of one of those who admire it. The irony (I hope you catch it this time) is that the admirer is valued higher than what he admires, simply because human life is sacred.


Edited by ok ge - 12-Oct-2006 at 14:20
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  Quote Scorpius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 13:19
Originally posted by Loknar

Yes that is another thing, Muslims wash their hands before the handle the Koran.

A book is mere print and words. When a bible gets old and worn out I see nothing wrong with throwing it out and buying a new one. The real crime according to the bible is actually altering its meaning.

 
If my hands are dirty, I sure wash them before reading Quran.
When I read Quran, I even use highlighters , take notes, cross reference some verses with other translations, etc..
 
This is called studying and it is my duty to understand better. More I understand, more I am closer to God.
 
And I carry my Quran with me during my travels (in my backpack along with my business related documents, and personal things ). Most of the hotels include bibel in their guest rooms but unfortunately no Quran :(
 
And I do not throw out Quran. Why do I ? while I am keeping many meaningless things in my house ;)
 
 
 
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 02:03
Originally posted by ok ge

[QUOTE=Vivek Sharma]
If you do more search, you will be surprised to know that the blood of a Muslim is holier than that stone shape as Islam value life more than a structure of stone that can be built and built and rebuilt.


Good philosophy. What does it say about the blood of a non muslim / kafir ?
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 10:15
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

If idolatary is not permitted in Islam, doesn't the worship of the shrine (i think it is a black rectangular stone covered with fabric) also constitute a form of idolatory ? Just asking ?
Kaba is a reprsentation of god's house on earth. If god in the sky and Muslims need to form one uniformed line directing to a center on this earth, it is the Kabah.
By this century, most people know Kabah significance. Only during the ages of Orientalists were these claims were made.
If you do more search, you will be surprised to know that the blood of a Muslim is holier than that stone shape as Islam  value life more than a structure of stone that can be built and built and rebuilt.
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 07:40
If idolatary is not permitted in Islam, doesn't the worship of the shrine (i think it is a black rectangular stone covered with fabric) also constitute a form of idolatory ? Just asking ?
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  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 00:19

Originally posted by Maju

It must be in Arabic.

Sorry to disappoint you, but it was in English.

Originally posted by Maju

That something is in the Internet is (in itslef proof of nothing): according to the Net atlantis has been found in about 125 different settings, Elvis Presley is alive and Arabia is a department of Bhutan. 

Originally posted by Maju

So start quoting date and place or book where he said that.


Do you read English, Maju?

Originally posted by Mira

I don't know if putting words between quotes is necessarily the best way to use google, but I really didn't know they put up scientific journal articles for free on the internet?  Be ready to pay if you're looking for something worth reading.

Originally posted by Mira

If I find the details of that article, I'll certainly share.

Originally posted by Maju

Anyhow, that Einstein or the Pope could be against something that doesn't disprove it, obviously.

I never said it was proof of anything.  That was a rhetorical statement.

Originally posted by Mira

If the scientific evidence available was adequate, Einstein would have been first to believe in it!



Edited by Mira
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 21:37
Originally posted by Mira

Originally posted by Leonardo

Why do you think that Einstein didn't believe in evolution theory? I'm just curious ...

You can google that up, Leonardo.  It's all on the internet.


It must be in Arabic.

That something is in the Internet is (in itslef proof of nothing): according to the Net atlantis has been found in about 125 different settings, Elvis Presley is alive and Arabia is a department of Bhutan. 

Originally posted by Maju

Why have I never heard before about Einstein's buts to evolutionary biology?

Maybe because you weren't looking for it? 



I'v read some of Einstein's works (particularly those on philosophy) and others' works mentioning Einstein if he ever said such thing I should know. So start quoting date and place or book where he said that.

Anyhow, that Einstein or the Pope could be against something that doesn't disprove it, obviously.

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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 20:54
Originally posted by OSMANLI



No, how dare you Omar, you once again have commented with little or very basic knowledge, on Islam.


You are in no position to judge on my knowledge of Islam, and you should not make unfounded accusations of things which you have no knowledge of.

Originally posted by OSMANLI



I have already explained what a munafiq is, and no it is NOT as you mentioned a person that drinks or gambles as you quite wrongly presume.

A munafiq Osmanli, is not someone who:
Originally posted by OSMANLI


This is a class of people that know something about Islam and then say they are part of it.

An Munafiq, is a pretender, a hypocrite, someone who pretends to be a muslim while in their hearts not believing at all. They may be the most learned person but not believe in their hearts. Someone who believes in all their heart but does not understand is not munafiq! And only Allah is in a position to judge what is in a mans heart.
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&lr=&oi=defmo re&defl=en&q=define:munafiq
Originally posted by OSMANLI


"which in many parts of pakistan would leave you a marked man Osmanli.", I do not act in a manner which will please parts of Pakistan. I have never even been there nor do i have plans to go there.

My point is think before you speak, otherwise you could get yourself into much trouble in both worlds.


Originally posted by OSMANLI


"Muhammad (pbuh) was a man, and should not be worshipped."

That right, doing so would be considered associating partners with Allah. But do you think by twisting what i say will prove anything? I did not say that we worship the Prophet PBUH, i even mentioned the Shahada which goes against such claims.

La ilaha illala Muhamadu rasulullah

There is no God but God (Allah) and Muhammad is his messenger

So whats your arguement then? Because mine was saying that you should not worship Muhammad (pbuh) as an idol, but worship God.
Originally posted by OSMANLI


Thus Muslims belive the Muhammad PBUH to be a messenger and NOT A THREAT

Mila:

" Mohammed is the bigger threat "

You have completely misunderstood that and taken it out of context.
Lets look at the whole sentence:
Originally posted by mila


If you're going to talk about idolatry in Islam, I'd say Mohammed is the bigger threat than kaaba or koran.

Perhaps my english is better than yours, let me help you.
There are about 1.5 billion muslims in the world and growing each day. Theoritically, some of these are not true muslims at all but munafiq (theoritcally because no man is in a position to judge). These may worship instead of God, other objects/people that are associated with Islam. The thread was opened suggesting that the Qu'ran or kaaba, are these objects. Mila said that it is more likely that people worship Muhammad (pbuh)  than the Qu'ran or kaaba.
Clearly to you and I Osmanli, we know you should only Worship God.
La ilaha illala
the Threat, is Idoletry, not Muhammad(pbuh). Do you deny that Idoletry is wrong?
Originally posted by OSMANLI


What exactly does a messenger do?

They deliver a message.

Who exactly is the message from for the belief of a Muslim?

Allah (God)

Its quite simple, nothing hard to grasp here.

"Believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered Prophet who believes in Allah and his words. Follow him, perhaps you will be guided." (7:157)

This is one of many examples from the Qur'an the mentions to follow the Sunnah for the sake of Allah.

clearly
Originally posted by OSMANLI


You see to actually prove anything you need sources. You claim to speak in the name of Islam, then prove yourself via the correct sources.

Absolutely, but I haven't actually said anything contentious, just stated things that should be common knowledge to anyone who knows anything about Islam, and I didn't think that I would need to look up references to things that extremely basic belief.
You are the one, who has stated fundamental verses that everyone accepts and then compeletly seperately made outrageous statements about a persons faith. Without, I suspect, even understanding what we are talking about!
Originally posted by OSMANLI



"keep your beard this length, keep your clothing this length, sit like this, hold your fork like this, paint your walls this color"

O, haha. Islam is being mocked, yet no one says anything. I defend my religion and people are 'shocked'.

Islam being mocked!?! It is they who practice this who are mocking Islam, hiding the message behind culture and tradition. People who are so far out of touch with the message they think that the colour of your walls will help you reach heaven.
ADDITION: But you cannot call them munafiq, they may have the best intentions, and just not understand.
Originally posted by OSMANLI


Maziar, your earlier comment about being 'nervous', what was that about?

If you are going to be so disrespectfull to religions then i openly challenge you or anyone to open a topic on such issues, then PM telling me when you have done so. Iam never 'nervous' on the issue of Islam, becuase " verily in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find rest". Islam is not for hiding.
 
Openly disrespectful to religions, you are the only one who has been disrespectful to someones religon on this thread, and thats your own. You certainly do seem nevous too. Changing the meaning of statements to infer disrespect and then greviously insulting them. Jumping at the slightest moment.




Edited by Omar al Hashim
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  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 14:57
Originally posted by OSMANLI

Maziar, your earlier comment about being 'nervous', what was that about?

If you are going to be so disrespectfull to religions then i openly challenge you or anyone to open a topic on such issues, then PM telling me when you have done so. Iam never 'nervous' on the issue of Islam, becuase " verily in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find rest". Islam is not for hiding.

This was my main question:

Originally posted by Maziar

My Parents are Muslims, not me i am an atheist. Well the probleme is that i don't believe on stories like adam and eve, i believe on evolotion's theory of darwin. Anyway i wanted to know how comes Kaaba is so important, there is nothing disrespectfull, i only want to know the historical facts.

No one gave me an answer to it, instead i was attacked from all sides for the minor points on my question, so i was wondered.

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  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 08:13

I don't know if putting words between quotes is necessarily the best way to use google, but I really didn't know they put up scientific journal articles for free on the internet?  Be ready to pay if you're looking for something worth reading.

In any case, the journal article I had read a couple of years ago talked about Science vs Religion.  It started off with a quote by Einstein (which I don't remember exactly), in which he says that science without religion is inadequate, and vice versa.  Anyway, the author discusses Einstein's belief, and then he argues that although he was not at all religious, Einstein did believe in the existence of a  non-personal Creator (whatever that means), who is in control of the creation, which explains why his position regarding the evolutionary theory was that (something to this effect), "If the evolution theory was real, then there must have been a 'Designer' who used evolution as a method to get us where we are today."

If I find the details of that article, I'll certainly share.



Edited by Mira
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  Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 08:01

No, how dare you Omar, you once again have commented with little or very basic knowledge, on Islam. I have already explained what a munafiq is, and no it is NOT as you mentioned a person that drinks or gambles as you quite wrongly presume.

"which in many parts of pakistan would leave you a marked man Osmanli."

, I do not act in a manner which will please parts of Pakistan. I have never even been there nor do i have plans to go there.

"Muhammad (pbuh) was a man, and should not be worshipped."

That right, doing so would be considered associating partners with Allah. But do you think by twisting what i say will prove anything? I did not say that we worship the Prophet PBUH, i even mentioned the Shahada which goes against such claims.

La ilaha illala Muhamadu rasulullah

There is no God but God (Allah) and Muhammad is his messenger

Thus Muslims belive the Muhammad PBUH to be a messenger and NOT A THREAT

Mila:

" Mohammed is the bigger threat "

What exactly does a messenger do?

They deliver a message.

Who exactly is the message from for the belief of a Muslim?

Allah (God)

Its quite simple, nothing hard to grasp here.

"Believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered Prophet who believes in Allah and his words. Follow him, perhaps you will be guided." (7:157)

This is one of many examples from the Qur'an the mentions to follow the Sunnah for the sake of Allah.

You see to actually prove anything you need sources. You claim to speak in the name of Islam, then prove yourself via the correct sources. If you do not belive in the Qur'an then that is up to you. I shall respect your honesty and belief's

"keep your beard this length, keep your clothing this length, sit like this, hold your fork like this, paint your walls this color"

O, haha. Islam is being mocked, yet no one says anything. I defend my religion and people are 'shocked'.

Maziar, your earlier comment about being 'nervous', what was that about?

If you are going to be so disrespectfull to religions then i openly challenge you or anyone to open a topic on such issues, then PM telling me when you have done so. Iam never 'nervous' on the issue of Islam, becuase " verily in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find rest". Islam is not for hiding.

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  Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 05:32
Originally posted by Mira

Originally posted by Maziar

It seems to me you claime we are all apes and only you are descendant of real human, although real humans were apes befor, like it or not. I am very sure you have not fallen from the heaven

I never said you were descandants of apes.  You're the ones who believe that about yourselves.  And I never said I had fallen from heaven, but yes, I believe the human species is distinct, and couldn't have evolved from anything.  How else do you explain that ever since our alleged evolution to the complex beings we are now, we haven't shown any evolutionary progress?  So the evolution process stopped right here, you say?  Sounds bogus to me.  I'm satisfied with what I believe in, and I realize you are, too, with what you believe in.  I respect that.

Originally posted by Leonardo

Why do you think that Einstein didn't believe in evolution theory? I'm just curious ...

You can google that up, Leonardo.  It's all on the internet.

Originally posted by Maju

Why have I never heard before about Einstein's buts to evolutionary biology?

Maybe because you weren't looking for it? 

 

I've entered on google "Einstein evolution theory" but I've found only these ! :

http://www.google.it/search?hl=it&q=%22einstein+evolutio n+theory%22&btnG=Cerca&meta=lr%3Dlang_en

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  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 04:26

Originally posted by Maziar

It seems to me you claime we are all apes and only you are descendant of real human, although real humans were apes befor, like it or not. I am very sure you have not fallen from the heaven

I never said you were descandants of apes.  You're the ones who believe that about yourselves.  And I never said I had fallen from heaven, but yes, I believe the human species is distinct, and couldn't have evolved from anything.  How else do you explain that ever since our alleged evolution to the complex beings we are now, we haven't shown any evolutionary progress?  So the evolution process stopped right here, you say?  Sounds bogus to me.  I'm satisfied with what I believe in, and I realize you are, too, with what you believe in.  I respect that.

Originally posted by Leonardo

Why do you think that Einstein didn't believe in evolution theory? I'm just curious ...

You can google that up, Leonardo.  It's all on the internet.

Originally posted by Maju

Why have I never heard before about Einstein's buts to evolutionary biology?

Maybe because you weren't looking for it? 

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  Quote Periander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 04:10
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

peace be upon him

Whats an extremely OT post?


Well, do I feel embarassed?! Thank you for your patience.

OT= Off=Topic
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 03:58
Originally posted by Maju



He actually made a major effort in his late years to disprove quantum mechanics, which is in the bases of such techs as nuclear energy. Yet he dramatically failed. In once occasion he was reading a self-written paper on that when he realized he had comitted a major error and left the stage ashamed.
 

Actually Maju. Those failed proofs are still up for questioning. I once went to a seminar at uni (Australian National University) where they were describing the teleporter they had built. (It actually made a clone of a photon, but is considered a teleporter). I hardly understood how it worked, but apparently the whole reason was because of one of einstiens proofs that quantum mechanics didn't exist.
So both quantum mechanics and the proof that it doesn't exist, were combined to create a teleporter.
Unfortunately I can't remember the details.
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 03:44
Just relized that we are discussing evolution and religion when there's another topi on it in this same subforum. This is about idolatry, not evolution.

OT should be "off topic". Just what I did.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 03:40
Originally posted by Mira

Originally posted by Maju

We are apes!


I have no objection or problem as to how you see yourself.  However, the scientific theory you believe in has so many flaws (which I'm not going to go through here - you may google it up, if you want) that are still debated in the scientific arena.  If the scientific evidence available was adequate, Einstein would have been first to believe in it!


Why have I never heard before about Einstein's buts to evolutionary biology? Where did you get that from? He did have buts about quantum mechanics, another widely proven theory, but this seems to have caused out of his prejudices about how God is supposed to act ("God doesn't gamble"), not his scientific thought.

He actually made a major effort in his late years to disprove quantum mechanics, which is in the bases of such techs as nuclear energy. Yet he dramatically failed. In once occasion he was reading a self-written paper on that when he realized he had comitted a major error and left the stage ashamed.

Like quantum mechanics, evolutionary biology is behind many technological applications, such as bio-farmacology or the controversial GMOs, which couldn't exist without it. It's not just widely proven but experimentally demonstrated.

Evolutionary biology isn't debated as such in the scientific arena. Of course there is debate on the details and science should never close its doors to serious debate. But evolution itself is only challenged in the media by fanatics of all sorts. No serious biologist would. Not at this stage.

A religious scientist can maybe prefer the ID explanation to feel more confortable within his ideological frame but that's not science: it's philosophy: putting God in the process of evolution as an orchestral director that makes sure that the performance is perfect. I'm not going to discuss that: it's not science but a speculative conciliation of creationist exotheism with scienctifical knowledge.

There is not any problem with evolutionary biology, as there is no problem with plate techntonics or with quantum mechanics. All them are major paradigms in their respective fields and have survived and even been reinforced by the baseless attacks of the fanatic hordes of ignorance.

I suggest you to study the matter in depth so you can have a based opinion.

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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 03:25
peace be upon him

Whats an extremely OT post?


Edited by Omar al Hashim
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