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A new era of islamic calvinism??
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gcle2003 View Drop Down
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: A new era of islamic calvinism??
    Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 16:09

Proponents of reform in any religion can produce one of two justifications:

a) they are returning the faith to its true roots, and getting rid of man-made accretions that have distorted the original message.

b) peripheral aspects of the orthodox teaching (like restriction of priesthood to men in the Roman Catholic Church) were valid temporary expedients in their day, but need to change to reflect changes in society. At its simplest, least challengeable level, this would refer for instance to something like priests not wearing clerical collars.

For a couple of examples:

Originally posted by Malizai

Why don't people leave a faith they don't like and get on with it.

From (a) above, because they think their version is the correct one, and the orthodox are wrong.

(I have some sympathy with your viewpoint with regard to Roman Catholics who don't want to accept the authority of the Pope. This is logical nonsense since the whole essence of Roman Catholicism lies in the authority of the Pope.)

i.e: Don't be a Christian homosexual bishop. Be a homosexual or a bishop. Because u r trying to do the impossible.

Under (b) above the argument would be that at one time, when homosexuality was unacceptable to civil society, it would be counter-productive to have homosexual bishops and priests. But that would be a matter of discipline and pragmatics, not a central tenet, and would therefore be open to revision as the idea of a homosexual clergyman became more acceptable to society at large.

For u can not reconcile the Christian text with a practice, that the text openly abhors

Where do you find that in 'the Christian text'?

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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 00:33
Originally posted by cebeci

for the last two days turkey is being quaked by photographs of women and men praying side by side in a mosque
I have one question, why?

Originally posted by Osmanli

How can one call your self an 'Islamic Reformer', since any changhe to Islam is consdered a 'Bidda' which is totally 'Haram' unlawfull.
I totally agree

Originally posted by Osmanli

It may infact go back to how it was in the past, Muslims following the true Islam (Qur'an and Sunnah), thus they will also be educated in worldly knowledge since Islam requires this to.

I agree, people should follow proper Islam.

Originally posted by Zagros

This is excellent, protestantism is EXACTLY what Islam needs to bring Islamic countries out of the dark ages.
Islam is already very protestant, people are always protesting about others. The only thing everyone agrees on is the Qu'ran and the Sunnah. Therefore if these "reformists" can't justify themselves I don't think they will get anywhere.

Originally posted by cebeci

there are many liberals in turkey believing the religion was corrupted by arbitrary applications of clerics which never existed in first days of islam. they believe that women were pushed backward by men-dominance and should regain their position throughout.
I partially agree. But the corruption of later clerics can only be corrected by following the Qu'ran and Sunnah, its also important to understand the context of each hadis and sunnah.

Originally posted by ill_teknique

The sunna should be used as a source for moral conduct but not as the primary source of islamic behavior.  I personally think that most of it is in fact correct and factual but some of it not necesarily people dont realize that the qu'ran is the only book that contains the words of god directly - the sunna was written and composed by mortal fallible individuals who are no more special than anyone else why would not some of them be deviating from their original version.  And even al bukhari was a human being that might've been able to make a mistake.  The sunna is there for examples not to be prior to the qu'ran

I agree.

Originally posted by malizai

If i was prostrating behind a couple of fit women with their asses hanging out in the air, i know where my concentration would be.
Exactly

Originally posted by gcle2003

For u can not reconcile the Christian text with a practice, that the text openly abhors
Where do you find that in 'the Christian text'?

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
(1 Corinthians 6:9,10) 
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 07:53

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Originally posted by gcle2003

For u can not reconcile the Christian text with a practice, that the text openly abhors
Where do you find that in 'the Christian text'?

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
(1 Corinthians 6:9,10) 

What version are you working from?

The King James has

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived. neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind. Nor thieves, not covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the Kingdom of God.

Nice to be able to make up your own translations as you want. You can get rid of almost anything that way.

Moreover, it's from a letter of Paul's, not the Gospels. There's nothing in Christ's teaching to this effect.
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 08:43
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim


Originally posted by Osmanli

How can one call your self an 'Islamic Reformer', since any changhe to Islam is consdered a 'Bidda' which is totally 'Haram' unlawfull.
I totally agree


In that case you should abandon all your hadith and sunna based practices, which are often even against the Quran.

That is truly haram.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Posts: 740 		  Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 12:01

That means that you have either not read carefully to my replies or that you have not understood.

-All Muslim's are required to follow the Qur'an. (iam glad that we both agree on this matter)

-Muslim's believe that the Qur'an is the word of God, Allah. (we also agree to this)

-Qur'an teaches us to follow the teachings of the final Prophet and Messenger Muhammad PBUH. Thus Allah, since the Qur'an is Allah's words is ordering to follow the final messenger PBUH.

-The actions of the final messenger PBUH are known as 'Sunnah'

-Books that have been compiled with the sunnah are known as 'Hadith'

One who reads these points will come to the conclusion that Allah has ordered us to follow the Qur'an and the Hadith (Sunnah->actions of the messenger PBUH). This is proven by the quote i gave to you on this topic already twice.

Thus the Sunnah is truly halal.
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 15:53
Originally posted by OSMANLI

That means that you have either not read carefully to my replies or that you have not understood.

-All Muslim's are required to follow the Qur'an. (iam glad that we both agree on this matter)

-Muslim's believe that the Qur'an is the word of God, Allah. (we also agree to this)

-Qur'an teaches us to follow the teachings of the final Prophet and Messenger Muhammad PBUH. Thus Allah, since the Qur'an is Allah's words is ordering to follow the final messenger PBUH.

-The actions of the final messenger PBUH are known as 'Sunnah'

-Books that have been compiled with the sunnah are known as 'Hadith'

One who reads these points will come to the conclusion that Allah has ordered us to follow the Qur'an and the Hadith (Sunnah->actions of the messenger PBUH). This is proven by the quote i gave to you on this topic already twice.

Thus the Sunnah is truly halal.

That's assuming that the Sunnah and the Hadith that you have were accurately recorded.

Is there a universally accepted Islamic doctrine that those collections are guaranteed correct? Otherwise, if they are only the result of human recording and recollection, they must be subject to human error.

 
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Posts: 740 		  Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 16:06

O ofcourse you have a point gcle2003.

And there are many Hadith. Muslims however will ask as to whether the Hadith is 'Sahih' meaning correct or strong. You see there are weak ones out there as well. Thank God that their are Sahih Hadith such as Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi. These Hadith collections are undisputed for being Sahih.
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 19:32
Originally posted by gcle2003

That's assuming that the Sunnah and the Hadith that you have were accurately recorded.

Is there a universally accepted Islamic doctrine that those collections are guaranteed correct? Otherwise, if they are only the result of human recording and recollection, they must be subject to human error.


You are correct. Hadises are the actions of a man, recorded by men and interpreted by men and there is plenty of room for human error. A lot of the time the context of it hasn't been written down either, and context is quite important. Often Hadises aren't very reliable and most of the arguements within the muslim world are over which hadis to follow and which not too. I give you three examples:

Hazrat Abu Hurairah relates that the Holy Prophet (Pbuh) said: You should not take lead in saluting(ie salaam) the Jews and the Christians. (muslim)

Hazrat Anas relates that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) said that if the Jews and Christians greet you, you should respond with only 'Wa'alaikum' (and on you) (Bukhari and Muslim)

Hazrat Usama bin Zaid relates that once when the Holt Prophet (pbuh) passed by a gathering of a people which included Muslims, non mulisms-idol worshippers and Jews, he greeted them with 'As-Salam-alaikum (Salutation of peace) (Bukhari and Muslim)

So as you can see, the last hadis contradicts the first two. To understand what really happened you would probably have to go into the circumstances.

The Qu'ran is the only perfect source, and when I read a hadis I decided to or not to follow it based on my understanding of the Qu'ran. In this case I would follow the last one, because the first two seem rude.


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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 19:37
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Originally posted by gcle2003

For u can not reconcile the Christian text with a practice, that the text openly abhors
Where do you find that in 'the Christian text'?

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
(1 Corinthians 6:9,10) 

What version are you working from?

The King James has

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived. neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind. Nor thieves, not covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the Kingdom of God.

Nice to be able to make up your own translations as you want. You can get rid of almost anything that way.

Moreover, it's from a letter of Paul's, not the Gospels. There's nothing in Christ's teaching to this effect.


I don't know what version it is. I was sent that quote by a Christian friend of mine. Later on she used the New Internation Version, so that quote may also be from there. Repeated Translations of translations can cause a change in meaning. The Qu'ran is alway translated from the original 7th centary Arabic.
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Posts: 2252 		  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 22:34

Originally posted by gcle2003

Otherwise, if they are only the result of human recording and recollection, they must be subject to human error.

Similarly, are u saying that christianity is falliable.

regarding prohibition of homosexuality

http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=homosex ual&qs_version=49

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2023 :17;%201%20Kings%2014:24;15:12;22:46;%202%20Kings%2023:7;hom osexual;&version=31;

The problem is that the bible has so many version, u dont know which one is correct anymore.
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Posts: 2252 		  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 22:42
Originally posted by cebeci

there are many liberals in turkey believing the religion was corrupted by arbitrary applications of clerics which never existed in first days of islam. they believe that women were pushed backward by men-dominance and should regain their position throughout. Our women can not take part many religious events in the equal terms compared to men, rather they must stand a step back.

reform is not against to someone or something but it is applied when current practice does not work properly.

I think those liberals are called alewis,(a branch of extreme shias as they are viewed by others) and i think they practice concealment of faith in its outward manifestation. They have worn many hats over time but have remained alewis. No offense if u r one. Their goal to challenge non-alewi govt in turkey.
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Posts: 1800 		  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 23:00

Well, from the original post it looks as if regulations on propriety in worship in are becoming more lax in Turkey, not that Islam is becoming more "Calvinistic."

Calvinistic theology puts forward the idea that before the creation of the world God chose who would be saved and who would be consigned to Hell.  This is called "predestination."  It also stresses a five point relationship between God and mankind.  As far as worship is concerned, no images of any kind were allowed inside the church, people were supposed to wear plain black clothing, and all holidays were banned from being celebrated.

If Islam reflects Calvinistic churches in any way, it is in the strict rules placed on the congregation in terms of propriety and orthodoxy.



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Posts: 740 		  Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2006 at 03:23
I would have to disagree. The Turks that pray the Namaz do so in the same manner as the rest of the Muslim world. Its just that one group who just got into the news due their unorthodox and un-Islamic act.
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2006 at 07:45
Originally posted by malizai_

Originally posted by gcle2003

Otherwise, if they are only the result of human recording and recollection, they must be subject to human error.

Similarly, are u saying that christianity is falliable.

regarding prohibition of homosexuality

Well, as a non-Christian of course I believe it fallible. However, I was making two different points. One is that the use of 'homosexual' only appears in modern versions of the texts. And arguably the more important one is that none of the references you quote (even with the 'updated' translations) are from the Gospels.

They are merely recorded letters from Paul, who never met Jesus and never even heard him preach. So, even if you believe that the gospels accurately reflect what Jesus taught (I think myself they probably are approximately correct), and you believe that Jesus was the Christ (which I don't), it is still incorrect to say that he taught anything about homosexuality.

http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=homosex ual&qs_version=49

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2023 :17;%201%20Kings%2014:24;15:12;22:46;%202%20Kings%2023:7;hom osexual;&version=31;

The problem is that the bible has so many version, u dont know which one is correct anymore.
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Posts: 1800 		  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2006 at 12:26

Originally posted by gcle2003

They are merely recorded letters from Paul, who never met Jesus and never even heard him preach. So, even if you believe that the gospels accurately reflect what Jesus taught (I think myself they probably are approximately correct), and you believe that Jesus was the Christ (which I don't), it is still incorrect to say that he taught anything about homosexuality.

Paul heard the voice of Christ on the road to Damascus and the light which shown upon him blinded him.  This was what initially led to his conversion to Christianity.

Christ did not overturn precedent that was in the law in the books of Moses.  He stressed that their was a more spiritual aspect than just following each point of the law to a letter, and that one had to accept him as the Messiah and the way to God, but he did not declare the old laws to be non-binding.
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2006 at 12:32
Originally posted by cebeci

well actually according to the reformists Quran  did not mention the form of faith but the faith itself

i mean it dictated to fast, pray (namaz), going to hadj etc but the forms of fulfilling the obligations were defined later by hadiths and sunnet (actions of prophet mohammed.

in turkey it is beginning to form a group of people setting their rules of faith

 

Sorry but that womans prayed(namaz), didnot prayed before even once at their home.

They dont know how to pray properly.

 

This is just a stupid show.



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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2006 at 13:37
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

Originally posted by gcle2003

They are merely recorded letters from Paul, who never met Jesus and never even heard him preach. So, even if you believe that the gospels accurately reflect what Jesus taught (I think myself they probably are approximately correct), and you believe that Jesus was the Christ (which I don't), it is still incorrect to say that he taught anything about homosexuality.

Paul heard the voice of Christ on the road to Damascus and the light which shown upon him blinded him. 

According to Paul.

This was what initially led to his conversion to Christianity.

Christ did not overturn precedent that was in the law in the books of Moses.  He stressed that their was a more spiritual aspect than just following each point of the law to a letter, and that one had to accept him as the Messiah and the way to God, but he did not declare the old laws to be non-binding.

Nor did he see them as binding.

The difference between the ethical teachings of Jesus and the obsessive, frequently sexually obsessive, ones of Paul are immense. Paul substituted another rigorous set of laws in a way that Jesus never did.
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Posts: 1800 		  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2006 at 14:33

Originally posted by gcle2003

According to Paul.

Nor did he see them as binding.

The difference between the ethical teachings of Jesus and the obsessive, frequently sexually obsessive, ones of Paul are immense. Paul substituted another rigorous set of laws in a way that Jesus never did.

It seems like you are playing semantics here in order to find a loophole to justify homosexuality.

I was stating what it says in the Scriptures about Paul's conversion; what you said here is your characterization of the way that he preached.

The Jews and the Christians wanted their lifestyles to be different than the non-Jews and non-Christians who surrounded them.  This is one of the reasons why God promulgated such a strict code of laws and regulations for Moses to give to the Hebrews.  This concept carried over into the early Christian church; only now, strict adherence to the law was not required for salvation.  However, homosexuality was a major lifestyle issue that set apart Jews and Christians from "Gentiles", in particular the Romans and Greeks.



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Posts: 2252 		  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2006 at 06:24
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by Malizai

For u can not reconcile the Christian text with a practice, that the text openly abhors

Where do you find that in 'the Christian text'?

The fact of the matter is gcle2003 that the "christian text" includes the old and the new testament, of which the Gospels are a part, therefore what paul says matters.

I think other forumers have provided u with ample evidence to validate the earlier assertion.

But in case u r not satisfied, let me quote u the old testament of which the gospels are not a part.

Leviticus 18:22
Do not have sex with a man as you would with a woman. It is an abomination.

For ur further satisfaction:

Genesis 19:4-7

Lev 18: 22; 20: 13; Deut 22: 17 18

Judges 19: 22 23

Kings 1 Kgs 14: 24; 15: 12; 23: 7

Ezekiel 16: 49-50
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Posts: 2252 		  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2006 at 06:46

Originally posted by malizai_

so what if the quran doesn't mention it?

Originally posted by Maju

That it's not an obligation for Muslims. You can pray in other ways, more proper of a free person. 

My comment was to invoke from u another ludicrous response, in the absence of ur grasp of the matter. Well, u didn't disappoint.

Maju as a free person u r free to despise another free peoples religion, but there is no excuse for ignorance.I was not aware that msulims pray while being chained and cuffed.

It is evident that u are not familiar with the concept of prophethood. For my comment was to highlight the principle that the islamic tradition is not subject to something being present in the quran. For in the prophethood of muhammed there are acts of oral tradition, of enactment and abstentions which are a source of canonical laws. The provision for this itself is enshrined in the quran, get it!
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