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Shogun
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    Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 05:06

Originally posted by Maju


The only reason not to be called genocide is oficial Turk nationalist ideology which is excessive in Turkey - but only there.

So the only reason it is not called a genocide and documented is Turkey?Wow....we are powerful...
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Posts: 2408 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 06:54
I dont wanna play this game.
Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı
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Posts: 488 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 17:24

I will ask again-there were Turks living in the area that is now Armenia-what happened to them? 

Are you talking about the Azeri Turks of Armenia, who went to Azerbaijan during the war? There were a lot of Armenians in Baku, but they had to leave too.

The Armenian genocide is well documented in foreign archives. Here, there are some documents from the German archives:

http://www.armenocide.de/armenocide/armgende.nsf

There were indeed some instances when Turkish, Kurdish, or Arab families sheltered Armenians, however the policy of the Turkish state was clearly to kill all Armenians, and to eliminate them from their historic homeland.

The reason why the Armenian community of Constantinople was less affected from the genocide (aside from the fact that on April 24, 1915, all Armenian intellectuals of Constantinople were rounded up, sent to Anatolia, and later killed), is that the Young Turks didn't want the whole world to know about the massacres. The foreign embassies and buildings were located in Constantinople, and would have been dumb to remove all Armenians from the city and massacre them in front of their eyes.
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Posts: 237 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 19:00

this link is not taken directly from a government site-it was taken from a genocide site.Will you please provide me the original thing so i can see if your theories are right-but this one looks allright, I will examine it

Please give me an offical site
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Posts: 237 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 19:03

Here is one of the first things I encountered:

"I cannot in any way vouch for the reliability of the report"

directly from the reporter(a witness in your words).But I'm sure I will find something on your account
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Posts: 6565 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 22:00
Originally posted by The Guardian

Originally posted by Maju


The only reason not to be called genocide is oficial Turk nationalist ideology which is excessive in Turkey - but only there.

So the only reason it is not called a genocide and documented is Turkey?Wow....we are powerful...



It is called genocide and documented... except maybe in Turkey, but only in Turkey. Do you prefer to live in a bubble or to touch reality?

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Posts: 6565 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 22:04
Originally posted by The Guardian

this link is not taken directly from a government site-it was taken from a genocide site.Will you please provide me the original thing so i can see if your theories are right-but this one looks allright, I will examine it

Please give me an offical site



A Turk oficial site? That doesn't exist but one wouldn't expect a Nazi site on the Holocaust, would you?

Go and ask the Neo-Nazis if the Holocacust happened? A few will admit and defend it but many will deny it.

Go and aske the Israelis about the expulsion of Plaestinians in 1948. They are still denying it.

Go and ask the Chinese about the Uygurs. Go and ask Milosevic on Bosnia. Go and ask the genocidals or their defendants...

Go...


Edited by Maju

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Posts: 6565 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 22:18
One probelm that some people have is that they over-relate to their ancestors: today Turks who weren't alive in 1920 say "we" when talking about this issue (or others).

Instead I don't relate at all to the actions of my ancestors: ones were with the fascists, the others evading the war, none with the revolution. So when I say the fascists invaded this or massacred that, I don't think "we". Because even if some of my ancestors were somehow involved, I am not them.

This is important. I think that my great-uncles died fighting against Greece because they were idiots and because of Mussolini. I don't think like the histeric of my mother does: "how evil are the Greeks because "they" killed my uncle this and that".

I hope we can lean back and look at this issue not as "us" and "they", but as "they" and "they". You weren't there, you were't involved, you belong to a totally diferent generation and reality.

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Posts: 1914 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 22:47

Why do you still scratch the issue which has been discussed million times and couldn't be able to go nowhere?Now, in several different topics, topics are being tried to be directed into the same issue...

Please, don't make this forum's peace and enjoyability be toppled.



Edited by Kapikulu
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Posts: 237 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 04:17
Originally posted by Maju

Originally posted by The Guardian

Originally posted by Maju


The only reason not to be called genocide is oficial Turk nationalist ideology which is excessive in Turkey - but only there.

So the only reason it is not called a genocide and documented is Turkey?Wow....we are powerful...



It is called genocide and documented... except maybe in Turkey, but only in Turkey. Do you prefer to live in a bubble or to touch reality?

Which countries and where is it documented?I never heard of classes taught on the matter....
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Posts: 237 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 04:21
Originally posted by Maju

Originally posted by The Guardian

this link is not taken directly from a government site-it was taken from a genocide site.Will you please provide me the original thing so i can see if your theories are right-but this one looks allright, I will examine it

Please give me an offical site



A Turk oficial site? That doesn't exist but one wouldn't expect a Nazi site on the Holocaust, would you?


No, if you had read my earlier post I was asking for the official site of the German documents.This sentence is highly offensive, you are putting my entire nation in the same place as the Nazis.
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Posts: 6565 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 06:13
Originally posted by The Guardian

This sentence is highly offensive, you are putting my entire nation in the same place as the Nazis.



Because unlike Germany, which has made a clear review of its oast and accepted its guilt. Turkey hasn't. Maybe you just killed a fraction but you keep denying you did, so you are still acomplices of the genocides.

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Posts: 3711 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 06:31

Because unlike Germany, which has made a clear review of its oast and accepted its guilt. Turkey hasn't. Maybe you just killed a fraction but you keep denying you did, so you are still acomplices of the genocides.


So almost all countries are  guilty, after all it is only germany.

Maju I think you read to much armenian propoganda, this is complately what they said.

And this is complately rubish. will you accuse me to make a genocide too? I  deny  this thing.

Hail Hitler, with your simple logic I becomed nazi.



Edited by Mortaza
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Posts: 237 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 11:01
Originally posted by Maju

Originally posted by The Guardian

This sentence is highly offensive, you are putting my entire nation in the same place as the Nazis.



Because unlike Germany, which has made a clear review of its oast and accepted its guilt. Turkey hasn't. Maybe you just killed a fraction but you keep denying you did, so you are still acomplices of the genocides.

What my country has done is nowhere near the nazis.It seems to me that you have no idea what happened.tell me maju-what happened in those years, and in which years the events you speak of occured?

Germany's crime was obvious, undeniable and accepted worldwide-the Armenian genocide is not like that matter
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Posts: 1914 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 11:03
Originally posted by Maju

Originally posted by The Guardian

Originally posted by Maju


The only reason not to be called genocide is oficial Turk nationalist ideology which is excessive in Turkey - but only there.

So the only reason it is not called a genocide and documented is Turkey?Wow....we are powerful...


It is called genocide and documented... except maybe in Turkey, but only in Turkey. Do you prefer to live in a bubble or to touch reality?

Documented? Actually it consists of all those maps and long sentences of hate...

There had been found no official documents of that time at first hand. (what I mean is, any documents left from that era, 1915-20) claiming such a "genocide" had been made, except subjective sources...Such as the Blue Book, such as letters of Morgenthau, who was an American official who was working most to create an Armenian state...

Later on, the issue had been scrutinized, together with some credible, but subjective writers such as Martin Gilbert, Arnold Toynbee etc. and many others writing crooked facts towards the wish of Armenians and of course,the diaspora.The facts had been changed, in fact, people dying in relocation was shown as being killed deliberately by Ottoman soldiers.Turkey never saw any reason to defend herself against those claims, as in this issue, considered herself so right..And, couldn't be as hardworking as Armenians did.

And it is being continued to use as a master-card against Turkey, probably in every country, and it still does.

Why are your trues has to be our trues?

Relocation yes, many Armenians and Turks died, yes, Armenians due to the poor conditions of relocations and Turks due to Armenian attacks, but deliberate genocide, no...



Edited by Kapikulu
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we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

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Posts: 237 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 12:54
Originally posted by Maju

Originally posted by The Guardian

This sentence is highly offensive, you are putting my entire nation in the same place as the Nazis.



Because unlike Germany, which has made a clear review of its oast and accepted its guilt

Germany was defeated and invaded
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Posts: 1988 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 15:37

Originally posted by Maju



It is called genocide and documented... except maybe in Turkey, but only in Turkey. Do you prefer to live in a bubble or to touch reality?

On other threads I apreciate your knowdledge a lot,Maju..but I see that here you speak up like a typical western politician..Not historian!

Completely biassful remarks,and circular reasoning.

Do u know what is circular reasoning?In ethics we define a situation circular reasioning when someone has already decided the correctedness of his argument...

My grand-grand father was killed by Armeno-Rus attacks,so I wil not let you make crap on this so easily

Not only in Turkey.....But also in more than hundred countries..Mr.gAMEMASTER

Especially in Israel...Israel strongly condemned the mispresentation of Armenian historians.

My idea about this issue is not the the nationalist approach...same with the israeli aproaach

I agree with Shimon Peres...

''The Armenian allegations are meaningless..''
ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever!

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Posts: 488 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 17:32

Especially in Israel...Israel strongly condemned the mispresentation of Armenian historians.

Turkey and Israel are close partners, so Israel and the Jewish lobby try to defend Turkey on all occasions. At least, the Chief Rabbi of Israel and many Jewish historians like Yair Auron recognize the Armenian genocide.

JEWISH RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY RECOGNIZES ARMENIAN GENOCIDE: CHIEF RABBI OF ISRAEL

YEREVAN, NOVEMBER 22. ARMINFO. The Jewish religious community
recognizes the Armenian Genocide, Chief Rabbi of Israel Yona Metzger
said at the Armenian Genocide Memorial in Yerevan today.

He said that despite the position of the Israeli authorities the
Israeli religious community acknowledges the fact of the Armenian
Genocide and mourns for its innocent victims together with the
Armenian people.

Metzger laid flowers to the memorial and sang a Jewish prayer. Then he
visited the Armenian Genocide Museum and left a note in the guests'
book.

Metzger is visiting Armenia on the invitation of the president
of the World Armenian Congress Ara Abrahamyan who believes that
Armenian-Israeli relations need intensification especially in the
economy.
 


Edited by Artaxiad
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Posts: 6565 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 20:17
Originally posted by Mortaza

Because unlike Germany, which has made a clear review of its oast and accepted its guilt. Turkey hasn't. Maybe you just killed a fraction but you keep denying you did, so you are still acomplices of the genocides.


So almost all countries are  guilty, after all it is only germany.

Maju I think you read to much armenian propoganda, this is complately what they said.

And this is complately rubish. will you accuse me to make a genocide too? I  deny  this thing.

Hail Hitler, with your simple logic I becomed nazi.



I don't read much Armenian propaganda: everybody out of Turkey knows that there was a violent genocide on Armenians in the efatermath of WWII and that it was perpetrated by Turkey. It's in all history books. Wake up!

What I say is that justifying or trying to hide a genocide is to be accomplice and doesn't say anything in favor of the persons and/or nation that does it. Rather the opposite. I think that history requires of criticism and humlity and not of glorification of violence nor pretending that our nations are the best of the world. All nation-states are subject to criticism, and all have violated human rights in different ways.

No nation is innocent - except maybe those that have no state.

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Posts: 6565 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 20:27
Originally posted by The Guardian

Originally posted by Maju

Originally posted by The Guardian

This sentence is highly offensive, you are putting my entire nation in the same place as the Nazis.



Because unlike Germany, which has made a clear review of its oast and accepted its guilt. Turkey hasn't. Maybe you just killed a fraction but you keep denying you did, so you are still acomplices of the genocides.

What my country has done is nowhere near the nazis.It seems to me that you have no idea what happened.tell me maju-what happened in those years, and in which years the events you speak of occured?

Germany's crime was obvious, undeniable and accepted worldwide-the Armenian genocide is not like that matter



You read any history book anywhere in Europe and you will find both genocides mentioned. The Turk Special Group proceded to organize death camps but specially massive deportations in conditions that led to death. Cold blood killings were also done. You can read it anywhere, starting by Wikipedia. It's estimated that 1,500,000 Armenians (out of possibly 2 million) died in that process.

It's obvious and undeniable. Of course there are Nazis that deny the Holocaust too.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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