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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Talaat Pasha
    Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 10:13

Originally posted by Maju

And another fact is that, Talaat is shot by Armenians...


If he was responsible of the genocide, what did you expect. Guess it would have been nice that Turks themselves did it but...

In fact if Armenians didn't kill him, the new Turkish government would eliminate him just like other leaders of the Union and Progress Party (Ittihat ve Terakki) just like Mehmed Cavid Bey (He was the minister of finance of the Union and Progress party and was hanged for preparing a conspiracy against Mustafa Kemal) so he would be remembered as a traitor if Armenians didn't hurry so much

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 18:55

Originally posted by Maju

And another fact is that, Talaat is shot by Armenians...


If he was responsible of the genocide, what did you expect. Guess it would have been nice that Turks themselves did it but...

It is true that many Ittihat and Terrakki(Order and Progress) officials were eliminated by the new republic, but if such a thing was done, that would have nothing to do with Armenians...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 19:06

Originally posted by mamikon

What do you mean this thread has nothing to do with your government? Was not Talaat in the Young Turk government? Was it not the government that carried out the Armenian Genocide?

"Talaat was shot by an Armenian"

What does that mean? He automatically becomes a saint and a martyr. He is condemned by the whole world in having a large role in the Genocide, and your president goes to his tomb and pays respect? (that was my original question, if this was really true). When did I say its unnatural when his tomb is brought back to his country?

Some time ago, the Japanese prime minister went to a shrine dedicated to a Japanese general,  who coincidentally killed many Chinese civillians before WWII. He apologized soon after that...

Well, Young Turk government and Turkey's government are totally different terms..

I just gave that as a small detail actually, I didn't have any claims or sth., but well, then Armenians took their revenge from a person they claim had done the so-called genocide...

I don't know if any official here made such a visit to his tomb, but it wouldn't be too strange if he does...Armenians condemning him with such a genocide wouldn't really interest the Turkish president..Japan accepts what Japan did in China during the WW II and it is proven, but Turkey doesn't accept such a claim and it is not actually proven...Just based on weak bases..

You gotta understand that Armenian genocide is not something I believe that had happened, so if you ask me about the Young Turk government, I would just talk about their terrible administration of the state,especially during the WW I.

Talaat is being condemned by whole world?I didn't know that world was consisting of several governments who accepted this thanks to heavy work of the Armenian diaspora.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 19:28
Look the Armenian Genocide may be arguable in the detail, like the Holocaust or Stalin's gulags. But I don't think anyone who's not brainwashed by nationalist propaganda would deny it happened.

Just a single data: how many Armenians are in Turkey nowadays? Officially none. How many Armenians are in the diaspora caused by the Genocide? 5 millions.

Denial of a well known and widely denounced historical fact doesn't protect your country for shame and guilt, rather the opposite: it adds to the already done damage (to both parties: Armenians and Turks)


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 20:40
Originally posted by Maju

But I don't think anyone who's not brainwashed by nationalist propaganda would deny it happened.

Look, something happened, something really bad against Armenians happened. But that can't be defined as a genocide.

Originally posted by Maju

Just a single data: how many Armenians are in Turkey nowadays? Officially none.

Officially? What do you mean?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 20:55

Originally posted by Maju

Look the Armenian Genocide may be arguable in the detail, like the Holocaust or Stalin's gulags. But I don't think anyone who's not brainwashed by nationalist propaganda would deny it happened.
There is nothing to argue about the details, there are thousands of testimnonies of armenians, turks and kurds, that massacres occured.

What turks do not accept is the one-sided portrayal of this in the west as a genocide of armenians alone.


Just a single data: how many Armenians are in Turkey nowadays? Officially none. How many Armenians are in the diaspora caused by the Genocide? 5 millions.

There are 40,000 armenians in Turkey according to 1996 estimate. 60,000 according to BBC. There is an armenian patriarch in istanbul.

http://countrystudies.us/turkey/33.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1169030.stm

 


Denial of a well known and widely denounced historical fact doesn't protect your country for shame and guilt, rather the opposite: it adds to the already done damage (to both parties: Armenians and Turks)

It has nothing to do with the country, but defending the truth.

The true denialists are those that belittle the suffering of one side, and emphasize the suffering of the other.

The true denialists are those that paint a one sided picture of the events.

 



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 20:59
Originally posted by Maju

Look the Armenian Genocide may be arguable in the detail, like the Holocaust or Stalin's gulags. But I don't think anyone who's not brainwashed by nationalist propaganda would deny it happened.
There is nothing to argue about the details, there are thousands of testimnonies of armenians, turks and kurds, that massacres occured.

What turks do not accept is the one-sided portrayal of this in the west as a genocide of armenians alone.


Just a single data: how many Armenians are in Turkey nowadays? Officially none. How many Armenians are in the diaspora caused by the Genocide? 5 millions.

There are 40,000 armenians in Turkey according to 1996 estimate. 60,000 according to BBC. There is an armenian patriarch in istanbul.

http://countrystudies.us/turkey/33.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1169030.stm

On the other hand, in Yerevan and in Armenia proper , where populations were still mixed during the Ottoman period, the number of ethnic turks is virtually equal to zero. More recently, nagorno-karabakh and its surrounding territories have been cleansed of turks. 1 million azeri refugees are victims of armenian agresssion and some of them still live in tents in extreme poverty even now as we speak.


Denial of a well known and widely denounced historical fact doesn't protect your country for shame and guilt, rather the opposite: it adds to the already done damage (to both parties: Armenians and Turks)

It has nothing to do with the country, but defending the truth.

The true denialists are those that belittle the suffering of one side, and emphasize the suffering of the other.

The true denialists are those that paint a one sided picture of the events.



Edited by bg_turk
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 21:31

Originally posted by Maju

Look the Armenian Genocide may be arguable in the detail, like the Holocaust or Stalin's gulags. But I don't think anyone who's not brainwashed by nationalist propaganda would deny it happened.

Just a single data: how many Armenians are in Turkey nowadays? Officially none. How many Armenians are in the diaspora caused by the Genocide? 5 millions.

Denial of a well known and widely denounced historical fact doesn't protect your country for shame and guilt, rather the opposite: it adds to the already done damage (to both parties: Armenians and Turks)

Well known historical fact?Nationalist brainwash?New etiquettes?

You disregard and ignore the emigrations,Armenians going to Lebanon-Syria and Soviet Armenia at that time...There were hundred thousands of Armenians living in Lebanon-Syria at that time.

Today, the diaspora population, which I believe not as much as 5 million, also consists of people emigrating after WW I from Armenia and Lebanon/Syria.Officially there are thousands of Armenians in Turkey,mostly in Istanbul...

The truth is that, there were both Armenian and Turkish people dying in the Eastern Anatolia at that time,but all begun with Armenians' attack against innocent Turkish folk, and their militants' try to hit Turkish soldiers behind the frontline.Turkish army, especially in the Caucasus front, was in so weak conditions that a little dense attack of a powerful Russian army could have made whole front collapse,after the disaster of Sarikamish, in which 90.000 Ottoman soldiers lost their lives even without fighting the enemy, due to cold and epidemic diseases.Even by putting little force, Russians were able to advance till Erzurum and Trabzon.And Armenians, helping this advance in every possible way they can.Militants' harming the innocent Turkish folk, killing the Ottoman soldiers.These acts were what forced Order and Progress Party decide to make a "forced  emigration" on Armenians. I don't defend that this was the right way to be done, but it was done.Ottoman Empire wasn't even able to feed and supply its own army, and unfortunately, hadn't been able to give to the emigrating Armenians either, as Ottoman Empire never had enough of those supplies...In the way, many died due to several reasons, diseases, attacks of the wandering bands, hunger etc..But there had never been a systematic extermination by Turkish folk or army, that is a fact.

All Thanks to Russian and Western World's provocations, which made two folks living in harmony two lifelong enemies.

After the WW I, remaining Armenians in the Eastern Anatolia actually had to "flee" because of heavy reaction they would get from the Turkish folk, as the Armenian militants, one more time, tried to take advantage of weak Turkish situation after WW I, and attacked Eastern Anatolia, though being defeated by Turkish army under command of Kazm Karabekir

And you know what, mortality rate of Turkish population in Eastern Anatolia was higher than the Armenian population(sourcerof. Justin McCarthy, the End of the Ottoman Empire)

Then, a question, why haven't this issue had been put forward during 1920s and 30s, why it had come back in 1960s? Probably because there was not enough resources found to prove that in 20s and 30s, ha?

And, if there was a massive movement against Armenians in whole Ottoman Empire, why is the Armenians in Istanbul are still there?

This issue is being used as a master-card, a trump against Turkey by many countries...In the international relations, it is always good to have such a card, and now, they have this card and use it.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 21:56

The Armenian inhabitants of the Ottoman Empire did their duties as Ottoman citizens, and served in the Ottoman army. Most of the Armenian men died in labour camps prior to the genocide.

Those who lived in Eastern Armenia, which was then under Russian rule, did their duties as Russian citizens, so they fought alongside Russians, against Ottomans.

During the genocide, some Armenians tried to defend quarters, and stop the massacres, while others surprisingly obeyed Ottoman orders of deportation.

In fact, where were they deported? To the Syrian desert, which acted like a big concentration camp... This way, they didn't have to use any bullets. The government released a big number of criminals to help out in the massacres. It's not like the Ottoman soldiers were the only ones massacring Armenians.

You talk about the fact that an Armenian - Soghomon Tehlirian - killed Talat Pasha in Berlin, but you forget that after the event, Tehlirian had to go to court to explain what he had done. He didn't even have to go to prison, because of the fact that Talat was the main perpetrator of the genocide! It's all documented.

Then, a question, why haven't this issue had been put forward during 1920s and 30s, why it had come back in 1960s? Probably because there was not enough resources found to prove that in 20s and 30s, ha?

Because they were too afraid to do some kind of international campaign for the recognition of genocide. You can't really know what they felt, unless you were one of them yourself. Besides, Europe was too busy making friends with their newly found parter, Mustafa Kemal, recovering from WWI, etc. The Armenian "question" was already buried underground in 1923, with the treaty of Lausanne.

And, if there was a massive movement against Armenians in whole Ottoman Empire, why is the Armenians in Istanbul are still there?

There were as many as 200 000 Armenians in Istanbul. Only 50 000 Armenians now remain there.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 22:40
Originally posted by barish

Look, something happened, something really bad against Armenians happened. But that can't be defined as a genocide.


     So what would the Ottoman government have to do in order for us to call the event "genocide"?

Originally posted by kapikulu

You disregard and ignore the emigrations,Armenians going to Lebanon-Syria and Soviet Armenia at that time...There were hundred thousands of Armenians living in Lebanon-Syria at that time.


     Armenian emigrations, or Armenian deportations? Before 1915, there were not many Armenians in Lebanon-Syria. After 1915, there were about a quarter-million (survivors of the genocide). Most of those Armenians who ended up in Lebanon now live in the United States.

Originally posted by bg_turk


It has nothing to do with the country, but defending the truth.

The true denialists are those that belittle the suffering of one side, and emphasize the suffering of the other.

The true denialists are those that paint a one sided picture of the events.


     I agree that neither side should deny the losses of the other. For Armenians, Turkish deaths are already accepted by us and the rest of the world as casualties of war. Now, our argument is that Armenian deaths were not "casualties of war", but victims of a plan to purposely eliminate the Armenian population of Turkey (whether through deportation, death or conversion). You don't have to agree with it, I'm just telling you how we look at it. No one is denying Turkish deaths, they are accepted... we bring up Armenian deaths over and over because they are not recognized as victims of genocide (again, you don't have to agree, I'm just explaining).

     Since we're on the topic, I should also mention that tens of thousands of Greeks and Assyrians were killed as well. Their descendents want Turkey to call the events "genocide", and they fight for its recognition.

Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 22:49

The Russian attacks in Eastern Turkey are well documented:

http://www.russianwarrior.com/STMMain.htm?1914_History_1915. htm&1

1915

1-4 January Battle of Sarikamish Turkish forces under Ahmet Pasha were defeated by the Russians at the Battle of Sarikamis.  The Turks lose 77,000 men of their original 95,000.

3 January Heavy fighting at Ardahan in the Caucasus region.

13-16 January Battle of Kara Urgan in Armenia between Russians and Turks. After several days of heavy fighting the Russian army takes 4,000 Turkish prisoners and routs the Turkish army there.

23 January Two Turkish divisions are defeated by Russian army at Khorsan.

30 January Turks are defeated by Russians at Sufian, and are driven back from Tabriz

21 February Turks driven across river Ichkalen in Armenia.

1 April In the Caucasus the Russians occupy Tsria.

6 April Russians enter Artvin in Armenia.

8 April Ottoman Turks begin deporting and massacring Armenians.

26 April Russian troops in Armenia advance on Olty.

27 April Russian forces expel Turkish defenders from Kutur in Persia.

5 May Russian troops decisively defeat a Turkish force in Armenia.

7 May Turks begin massacre of Christians.

11 May Russian troops make gains in Tabriz district.

17 May Ardjuche on Lake Van is occupied by Russian troops in Armenia.

21 May Turks retreat on Bitlis river in Kurdistan.

25 May Miandob in Persia is occupied by Russian troops.

27-28 May On Lake Van, Vastan is occupied by Russian troops.

10 July Turkish troops attack Russians near Karaderbent in the Caucasus.

27 July Turkish troops force Russian army back near Mush in Asia Minor.

5 August Russians capture Turkish positions near Olti and Sarikamish in the Caucasus, and repel later Turkish attacks.

9 August 255,000 Armenians from Van migrate into Caucasus region.

10 August Russians pursue the Turks on the Upper Euphrates river and capture critical high ground in Passin valley.

12 August In Armenia Russian left flank reoccupies Alshgerd.

16 August Turks driven back near Olti in Caucasus.
In Armenia Russian troops enter Van.  They also announce the defeat of the Turks in a communique and occupy Kep.

25 August Turks again massacre Armenian civilians.

12 October Russian forces repel Turks in Van pass and and Arkhava.

14 November In Persia the Turks and Germans are defeated by Russians.  Turkish ambassador and Austro-German Ministers leave the country.

26 November Turks and Kurds are defeated by Russian troops who occupy Karaj and Yengi Iman some 40 miles from Tehran.

9 December Russian troops occupy Sultan Bulak pass in Persia.  Turco-German mercenaries are routed by Russians in Hamadan.

17 December Russian troops drive hundreds of Kurds into the mountains

20 December Russians in Persia take Kum and stop German intrigue there.  Turkish strength in Armenia is now 11 divisions.

 

1916

10 January Russian offensive begins in Armenia.

13 January Turkish troops reported at Kermanshah in Persia.

15 January Kangavar is occupied by Russian troops.

16 January Russians are forced to evacuate Kangavar.
Large scale Russian offensive begins in Transcaucasia

17 January Turkish troops retreat towards Erzerum

18 January Hasan-Kala in Armenia is taken by Russian forces.

20 January Russian troops take Sultanabad in Persia and make progress in Armenia.

29 January Russians bombard ridge protecting Erzerum.

1 February Russians drive Turks back in Kermanshah district and Armenian offensive continues to make gains.

13 February Russian forces take a fort at Erzerum.
In
Armenia the town of Khanys
is occupied by Russians.
Daultabad in
Persia is taken by Russian troops.

14 February Another fort at Erzerum falls to the Russians.

16 February Erzerum falls to Russians.
13,000 prisoners and 323 guns are captured.  Arabs desert the Turkish army in large numbers.  By taking the city the Russians relieve pressure on the Egyptian front.

18 February Mush and Aklat in Armenia are taken by Russian troops.

22 February Russian troops approach Trebezond.

26 February Ashkala in Armenia is occupied by Russians.

2 March Bitlis falls to Russian troops in Armenia.

4 March Russians land east of Trebizond at Atina.

9 March Turkish forces are driven beyond the river Kalopotamos.
Germans are reported to be leaving Ispahan in
Persia.

17 March Russians continue their advance west of Erzerum.

26 March Russians make progress in Armenia along the upper Chorok river.

27 March River Baltachi Darassi in Armenia is crossed by Russian troops.

31 March Turkish forces in Armenia are defeated by Russians at Kara Malachkan.

2 April Russian troops in Armenia cross the upper Chorok and take fortified mountain positions.

5 April German warship 'Breslau' assists Turkish forces near Trebizond

6 April Russian troops in Armenia drive Turks across Kara Dere.

7 April Russians repulse three Turkish attacks on Kara Dere.

13 April After six days of fighting Russian troops repulse Turkish forces west of Erzerum.

15 April Near Bitlis Russian forces make gains.

16 April After 9 days of fighting Russians take position along the left bank of Kara Dere.

17 April Russian troops in Armenia occupy Surmeneh and reach Assene Kalessi.

18 April Trebeizond falls to Russians.
Russian troops also make progress west of Erzerum.

20 April Russians take positions in the Bitlis region.

5 May Turkish forces defeated by Russians at Sermil in Persia.

8 May Turkish forces claim victory over Russians at Pirnakapan in Armenia.

9 May Turkish forces defeat Russian troops in Armenia near Bashkeui.

13 May Turkish forces defeated at Ashkale in Armenia.

15 May Russian forces capture Rowanduz east of Mosul.

16 May Russians advance on Mosul.

21 May Russians repulse Turkish attacks south of Trebizond

24 May Russian in Armenia capture Mamakhatun.

27 May A joint Turkish-Kurdish force is repulsed by Russians near Serdasht.

1 June Turks launch offensive in Armenia.

2 June Turkish troops are repulsed by Russians between Erzerum and Erzingan.  Turks then retreat some 25 miles.

After three days fighting Turks retire west of Rowanduz. 

3 June Turks defeated by Russians at Khanikin in Persia.  Russians also repulse Turkish attacks in Asia Minor at Diarbekr.

5 June Russians evacuate Khanikin.

6 June Russian advance is stopped at Diarbekr.

11 June Turkish attacks at Platina are repelled by Russians west of Trebizond

12 June Turkish camp near Diarbekr is captured by Russians.
Russians also repel Turkish attack at Rowanduz

14 June Near Chorok the Russian army regains lost ground.

19 June Turks attack Russians at Saripul in Persia and are repelled.

26 June In northern Persia Russian army advances west.
Turks prepare to evacuate
Mosul
.
Turkish forces also driven from
Lake Urmia in Persia.

1 July Turkish troops in Persia defeat Russian force and pursue it to Kermanshah.

12 July Russian troops under Gen. Yudenich advance west of Erzerum and recapture Mamakhatun.

19 July Russian forces in Persia are defeated and driven north of Kermanshah by Turkish forces.

20 July Russians capture Gumishkhanek in Armenia.

23 July Russian army advances on Erzingan in Armenia as Turks retreat.

25 July Erzingan is captured by Russian army in Armenia.

27 July Turkish attack near Mosul is repulsed.
Russian army advances towards
Sivas.

31 July Russians in Armenia continue to pursue retreating Turkish forces amid stubborn resistance.

2 August Turkish counter-attack retakes Mush and Bitlis in Armenia

3 August Turkish trenches at Ognut in Armenia fall to Russian troops.

5 August Russian offensive make progress 30 miles north of Erzingan.

6 August Strong Turkish attacks in Armenia are repelled by Russians.
Russians are driven back by the Turks east of
Kermanshah in Persia.

8 August Turks occupy Mush and Bitlis.

23 August Turks defeated at Rayat and lose 2,300 men as prisoners.

Russians retake Bitlis.

28 August Russians encounter Turkish forces occur south of Erzerum

1 September Chormuk is captured by Russian forces.

4 September Russian offensive west of Trebizond continues.  Over 500 prisoners are taken.

27 November Russians drive back Turkish forces in Persia and capture a large amount of war material.

30 November Russians push 30 miles into Persia.

25 December Turkish force attacks Russians around Van in Armenia.

28 December Russians drive off Turkish forces south of Van.

 

1917

2 March Russian troops occupy town of Hamadan.

8 March Russian troops leaving Hamadan engage and rout a Turkish force that is forced to withdraw to Hajiabad.

9 March Retreating Turkish troops are attacked by Russians near Sivas in Asia Minor.

Russian scouts advance southwest of Sakis.
Sinnah is captured.
Turkish forces are in general retreat throughout
Persia
.
Persian government is invited to take possession of towns the Russians have taken in
Persia

10 March British troops push Turkish forces to within three miles of Baghdad.

13 March Kermanshah falls to Russian forces after two days fighting.
Another group of Russian forces approaches Bana some 140 miles northwest of
Kermanshah.

16 March Russian troops force Turks from the summit of Naleskian in Persia.  They also occupy Alliabad and engage Turks near Kerind.

17 March After heavy fighting Russians occupy Kerind and pursue fleeing Turks along the Tehran road.

18 March Russians in Armenia enter Van.

21 March Russian forces continue to pursue Turks from Sakiz towards Kermanshah.

28 March Russians launch attacks on Magyaros ridge, but they fail.

1 April Russians make progress towards Khanikin some 85 miles northeast of Baghdad.
Turks retreat to Kasr-i-Shirin in
Persia

2 April British and Russian troops link up at Kizil-Robat. 

3 April Russian cavalry occupies Kasr-i-Shirin and Khanikin.

 9 April Kizil-Robot is occupied by Russian troops.

21 April Cossacks repulse Kurds on river Diala.

1 May Mush is occupied by Turkish forces.

5 May Russian forces near Mush and Oghnut withdraw.

13 May Russian detachments are forced to retire across the river Diala towards Kifri.  This greatly enhances the Turkish chances of retreat.

17 May Kurds attack Russian rear positions near Khanikin.

26 June Russian forces take Serdesht in Persia

9 July Russian army reports that increasing Turkish pressure along the Mesopotamian front is causing them to evacuate towns.

23 September Russian forces successfully attack Turkish troops near Ortobo.

3 October Russians take Nereman village north of Mosul.

7 November Bolshevik revolution spreads in Petrograd

31 December Civil War rages across Russia.

1918

18 February Russians evacuate Armenia as Turks close to within 8 miles of Trebizond.

 

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 23:06
Originally posted by Artaxiad

The Armenian inhabitants of the Ottoman Empire did their duties as Ottoman citizens, and served in the Ottoman army. Most of the Armenian men died in labour camps prior to the genocide.

Those who lived in Eastern Armenia, which was then under Russian rule, did their duties as Russian citizens, so they fought alongside Russians, against Ottomans.

During the genocide, some Armenians tried to defend quarters, and stop the massacres, while others surprisingly obeyed Ottoman orders of deportation.

In fact, where were they deported? To the Syrian desert, which acted like a big concentration camp... This way, they didn't have to use any bullets. The government released a big number of criminals to help out in the massacres. It's not like the Ottoman soldiers were the only ones massacring Armenians.

You talk about the fact that an Armenian - Soghomon Tehlirian - killed Talat Pasha in Berlin, but you forget that after the event, Tehlirian had to go to court to explain what he had done. He didn't even have to go to prison, because of the fact that Talat was the main perpetrator of the genocide! It's all documented.

Then, a question, why haven't this issue had been put forward during 1920s and 30s, why it had come back in 1960s? Probably because there was not enough resources found to prove that in 20s and 30s, ha?

Because they were too afraid to do some kind of international campaign for the recognition of genocide. You can't really know what they felt, unless you were one of them yourself. Besides, Europe was too busy making friends with their newly found parter, Mustafa Kemal, recovering from WWI, etc. The Armenian "question" was already buried underground in 1923, with the treaty of Lausanne.

And, if there was a massive movement against Armenians in whole Ottoman Empire, why is the Armenians in Istanbul are still there?

There were as many as 200 000 Armenians in Istanbul. Only 50 000 Armenians now remain there.

1-From where you got the idea that Armenians had actively served in the Ottoman army?Well, theorically yes,practically, not really.

2- If killing the innocent Turkish counterparts and revolting against the state with Russian provocation as Ottoman citizens is a duty of Armenians, then they did their duty pretty well after 1890s, not before that time,though.Armenians in Russia fought alongside Russia, Armenians in Ottoman Empire also fought alongside Russia, and worse, they did that behind the frontline,like a backstabbing,that is what forced the administrators of empire to look for a solution.

Let's listen from Louise Nalbandian:

"The Armenian revolutionary committees considered that the most opportune time to begin a general uprising to achieve their goals was when the Ottoman Empire was in a state war", and thus less able to resist an internal attack...

The Tashnak Society's official organ-Horizon's declaration:

"The Armenians have taken their place on the side of the Entente states whatsoever;they have placed all their forces at the disposition of Russia;and they also are forming volunteer battalions"

The Hinchak committee instructions:

"The Hinchak committee will use all means to assist the entente states, devoting all its forces to the struggle to assure victory in Armenia,Cilicia,the Caucasus and Azerbaidjan as the ally of the Allied states, and in particular,Russia"

I get dizzy as I read through;maybe you get the reasons and basis of this right now...

Armenian representative to Van in the Ottoman Parliament,Papazyan's proclamation:

"The volunteer Armenian regiments in the Caucasus should prepare themselves for battle,serve as advance units for Russian armies to help them capture key positions in the districts where the Armenians live,and advance into Anatolia,joining Armenian units already established there"(Where are those so-called Armenians fulfilling their duties as Ottoman citizens, look at their representatives.Later,Papazyan personally led some Armenian guerrilla forces ravaging the areas around Van,Bitlis and Mus)

Former Ottoman parliamentarian Hamparsum Boyaciyan:

"Turkish children also should be killed as they form a danger to the Armenian nation"

As much as mentioning the Armenian deaths, Turkish deaths in the region had never found any sensational approach.

3- If Damascus and Beirut are Syrian deserts, then they had gone to desert either...They were sent to Syria and Lebanon because it was considered as the best and closest place to send them. Those places were possibly the only regions that weren't under threat of war and not in the frontline in whole Ottoman Empire(remember, Iraq,Sinai,Palestine,Western Anatolia(due to Gallipoli) all were frontlines...

4- Europe didn't want to make friends with Mustafa Kemal, actually they wanted to take most out of him...And Treaty of Lausanne is still valid.And why is that campaign being tried to make internationally? Because of the Armenian intention to receive billions of dollars of compensation from Turkey in return...Main ambition and solution of diaspora to save Armenia,which is not a rich country.

5- I don't understand why you have that feeling of blaming Ottoman Empire for every deed done. First, what is your source for Armenian population in Istanbul in 1915? Second, haven't you ever thought about the fact that Armenians emigrating to abroad with their own wishes after the war,in the case of Istanbul?

The number of Armenians claimed to be put under so-called genocide increases like a public auction...Even serious institutions become part of this

In 1918 issue of Encyclopedia Britannica, this number was 600.000, in 1968 issue, it had been changed to 1.5 million.

I will give you the Ottoman census in 1914, and considering that these records were under foreign control, this census is reliable.

Armenian population in Ottoman Empire: 1.221.850 people

As there were no systematic and deliberate killings at all, I believe genocide is not the right word for what happened.

I don't say "No Armenians had died", I can sense the fragility of this issue for both sides, like me feeling it either..

 

I don't really wish to continue with this in order to not to cause a flame war and this issue has been discussed a zillion times, especially between TheDiplomat and ArmenianSurvival,and what we discuss here will be no more than a repetition. So if nobody replies, then I won't reply anymore,but if it is go on, then I will go on either, or,  the moderators can lock this as the final solution



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 23:18
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival


     I agree that neither side should deny the losses of the other. For Armenians, Turkish deaths are already accepted by us and the rest of the world as casualties of war. Now, our argument is that Armenian deaths were not "casualties of war", but victims of a plan to purposely eliminate the Armenian population of Turkey (whether through deportation, death or conversion). You don't have to agree with it, I'm just telling you how we look at it. No one is denying Turkish deaths, they are accepted... we bring up Armenian deaths over and over because they are not recognized as victims of genocide (again, you don't have to agree, I'm just explaining).

     Since we're on the topic, I should also mention that tens of thousands of Greeks and Assyrians were killed as well. Their descendents want Turkey to call the events "genocide", and they fight for its recognition.

I do not dispute the deaths of armenians, this is something which is undisputable there are many testimonies from people who have experienced these events. But turkish testimonies also show that moslems were killed and massacred systematically during the Russian agression supported by the armenian rebels in order to eliminate all resistance to the formation of an armenian state. The terms genocide implies that the turks were the agressors and the armenians the victim, no turk would accept that.

The purpose of the ottoman empire was not the complete annihilation of the armenian people, but to prevent the formation of an armenian state and stop the russian invasion. If indeed a complete annihilation was the purpose of the turks, why didn't they finish the job off completely? Why are there still armenians in Turkey?

The massacres were not racially motivated from some intrinsic hatred against the armenian race, in fact many armenian orphans were saved, adopted and raised by turkish family.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4735171.stm 

In view of this the term genocide is unacceptable.

I know the Ottoman empire has caused a lot of suffering to armenians, and I understand your bitterness, I apologize for every single unnecessary death caused, but what the turkish people will never accept is these events to be called genocide. Turks were fighting a battle of death and life as well, they had to prevent the formation of an Armenian state in western anatolia by all means.

Unlike Armenia, things turned very different where I live in Bulgaria. The Russian army was victorious in 1878 and Bulgaria gained its independence. As a result 400,000 turks were killed and a million fled to Turkey. If Russia was victorious in Armenia, the precedent in the Balkans would have been repeated. Turks had to defend themselves by all means possible, and their desperation they certainly went too far.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 03:59
Originally posted by barish

Originally posted by Maju

But I don't think anyone who's not brainwashed by nationalist propaganda would deny it happened.

Look, something happened, something really bad against Armenians happened. But that can't be defined as a genocide.


Why? It was actually a genocide or democide. It wasn't a meteor falling from the skies but an organized persecution and massacre that cleansed ethnically one full region of Eastern Anatolia.

The only reason not to be called genocide is oficial Turk nationalist ideology which is excessive in Turkey - but only there.

Originally posted by Maju

Just a single data: how many Armenians are in Turkey nowadays? Officially none.

Officially? What do you mean?

[/QUOTE]

That I found no data on them. I guess there will be a few remnants somewhere, maybe in Istanbul, but they are not called "Armenians".

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 04:07
Originally posted by bg_turk

Originally posted by Maju

Look the Armenian Genocide may be arguable in the detail, like the Holocaust or Stalin's gulags. But I don't think anyone who's not brainwashed by nationalist propaganda would deny it happened.
There is nothing to argue about the details, there are thousands of testimnonies of armenians, turks and kurds, that massacres occured.

What turks do not accept is the one-sided portrayal of this in the west as a genocide of armenians alone.


I have no problem in discussing the other side. Maybe even there was a genocidal attampt against Turks in some areas on Armenian hands. But that's not pretext to deny the genocide of Armenians, which is truly a one-sided attitude of historical denial.


Just a single data: how many Armenians are in Turkey nowadays? Officially none. How many Armenians are in the diaspora caused by the Genocide? 5 millions.

There are 40,000 armenians in Turkey according to 1996 estimate. 60,000 according to BBC. There is an armenian patriarch in istanbul.

http://countrystudies.us/turkey/33.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1169030.stm


Fine. Glad to know. They don't even appear in Turk statistics. 40,000 to 5 million (not counting the ones that maybe found refuge in Soviet Armenia) is about the same of what I was saying.

 


Denial of a well known and widely denounced historical fact doesn't protect your country for shame and guilt, rather the opposite: it adds to the already done damage (to both parties: Armenians and Turks)

It has nothing to do with the country, but defending the truth.

The true denialists are those that belittle the suffering of one side, and emphasize the suffering of the other.

The true denialists are those that paint a one sided picture of the events.


I do think that it is intentionately painted as a two side issue, just as the Bosnian genocide is painted as two side issue or the Palestinian one too. Yet the core of the historical truth is that there was one side determined to cause as much harm as possible to the other and that eventually succeeded, at least in the Armenian case, in wiping out Armenians from their historical region, save for the areas that felt under USSR protection.

I think that most Armenians surely have no problem in acknowldeging that this or that Armenian-done massacre effectively happened. I also don't think that changes the overall picture.



Edited by Maju

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 04:16

 I do not want to get involved in the genocide-just war casualties debate but one thing should be noted and understood- no Turk, not even the fiercest nationalist, denies that Armenians live currently in Turkey (mostly Istanbul but also in the East and in 'Kilikya') and are accepted as Armenians (they are not mountain Turks) - ie. religiously and ethnically (whatever that means) different.

Anyone who says that Turks are not tolerant and accepting of different entities within them is plain wrong.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 04:23
Genocide as coined by R. Lemkin, the first one to use the term in 1943:


Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide


In this sense a more specificterm, democide, was coined to talk specifically of those acts of killing people by a government:


"the murder of any person or people by a government, including genocide, politicide, and mass murder"


Instead, cultural genocide is used to describe to forced assimilation and cultural desertization policies, like those imposed on so many ethnicities around the world.

The term genocide was eventually redefined oficially by the UN as:


The Convention (in article 2) defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:"
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.


So now you tell me if the "Armenian issue" as you call it was or wasn't genocide.

Anyhow, there's another topic on the Armenian Genocide, so let's focus here on Talaat Pasha and the polemic around him.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 04:51

Originally posted by Maju

Look the Armenian Genocide may be arguable in the detail, like the Holocaust or Stalin's gulags. But I don't think anyone who's not brainwashed by nationalist propaganda would deny it happened.

Just a single data: how many Armenians are in Turkey nowadays? Officially none. How many Armenians are in the diaspora caused by the Genocide? 5 millions.

Denial of a well known and widely denounced historical fact doesn't protect your country for shame and guilt, rather the opposite: it adds to the already done damage (to both parties: Armenians and Turks)

The Armenian Genocide is still an argument in debate and there are no (strange I used the word "no") documents, so it's really hard to prove on your account-and accusing everyone that denies of being brainwashed does not prove a point-It's just a fairly stupid look on the matter

There were Turks living in Armenia during those days, how many Turks live in Armenia now?Plus the number of Armenians was not 5 million-never was

This is not the denial of a historical fact-it's just the denial of an accusation.The Armenian genocide is not documented yet

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 04:55
Originally posted by Artaxiad

There were as many as 200 000 Armenians in Istanbul. Only 50 000 Armenians now remain there.

Maybe they left?I don't know-and you don't know since there are agian no documents on the matter-plus the world would know if we made an attempt like that

I will ask again-there were Turks living in the area that is now Armenia-what happened to them? 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 05:00
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival



     Armenian emigrations, or Armenian deportations? Before 1915, there were not many Armenians in Lebanon-Syria. After 1915, there were about a quarter-million (survivors of the genocide). Most of those Armenians who ended up in Lebanon now live in the United States.

 

     Since we're on the topic, I should also mention that tens of thousands of Greeks and Assyrians were killed as well. Their descendents want Turkey to call the events "genocide", and they fight for its recognition.

"Surviviors" of deportation are not counted as genocide victims-check out the meaning again

Greeks and Assyrians have nothing to do with this topic.NOTHING, and until these Greeks and "Assyrians" win that hopeless skirmish of a fight, you cannot make that statement saying Assyrians and greeks were killed-you just can't back it up



Edited by The Guardian
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