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Talaat Pasha
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Maju 
King 
Joined: 14-Jul-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6565 |
 Topic: Talaat PashaPosted: 01-Feb-2006 at 00:32 |
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I'm going to lock this topic, because we are not discussing anymore
Talaat Pasha but the genocide and that one has already other two topics
active. I'll reply to Kaipkulu in the other topic.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
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Kapikulu
Arch Duke 
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 07-Aug-2004 Location: Berlin Online Status: Offline Posts: 1914 |
Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 22:56 |
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Crimes of governors,state leaders, or a political elite can not be laid upon a nation. If the Jews were exterminated by Germans, it is not the crime of whole nation, it is the crime of the Nazis... The same stuff here.Even if this so-called genocide happened, the crime belongs to Order and Progress party elites, and they should be blamed.Not the Turkish nation.As it is not the state who does the crime, but it is the ones who is administrating it.State doesn't have a humane character. It is also said that, one of the major intentions of Armenians is to get a very huge compensation for the so-called crimes of Order and Progress Party, if Turkey gets forced to recognize a genocide, and use this money to make Armenia a wealthy country.But I don't believe such a thing would be appropriate in terms of jurisprudence. What I believe and defend here is, The Order and Progress Party and its elites, hadn't given orders for such a genocide. Their solution was relocation.After all, poor conditions of the empire showed itself there...Unfortunately.But, if all has arrived safely to Syria and Lebanon, or gone to today's Armenia, we wouldn't be talking about this issue, and either,the entire relocation stuff wouldn't be crooked to be converted into a genocide. |
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We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough; we couldn't find neither; we made up sorrows for ourselves; we couldn't be consoled; A Strange Orhan Veli |
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Kapikulu
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 07-Aug-2004 Location: Berlin Online Status: Offline Posts: 1914 |
Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 22:14 |
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5 million in the diaspora But well,anyway, today's population is not really important.What is important is the data of those times. Of course it is normal that there are no Armenians in NE Anatolia right now, they are relocated.Neither I nor any Turks don't deny this fact..But look at Istanbul, there are many Armenians who continue their life freely as the citizens of Turkey. Some had gone to Armenia,some to Lebanon/Syria...Then they emigrated and formed diaspora. Americans didn't personally evacuate them from Anatolia.And the remaining Armenians in Anatolia, ran away after they lost in their struggle supported by Entente states to create their own country. Another question: How come each of the Turks living in Eastern Anatolia has a terror story behind either? Edited by Kapikulu |
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We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough; we couldn't find neither; we made up sorrows for ourselves; we couldn't be consoled; A Strange Orhan Veli |
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Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6565 |
Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 22:11 |
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The Armenian diaspora are just the living evidence of that genocide. They aren't so much the creators but the witnesses.
I insist: if there was no genocide how come there are 5,000,000 Armenians in the diaspora and no one in Western Armenia (NE Anatolia)? How come each of the Armenians in exile has a terror story behind? |
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NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
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Artaxiad
Baron 
Joined: 10-Aug-2004 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 488 |
Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 21:29 |
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The Armenian diaspora doesn't have the power to influence history books around the world. Edited by Artaxiad |
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Kapikulu
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 07-Aug-2004 Location: Berlin Online Status: Offline Posts: 1914 |
Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 20:29 |
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I don't read much Armenian propaganda: everybody out of Turkey knows that there was a violent genocide on Armenians in the efatermath of WWII and that it was perpetrated by Turkey. It's in all history books. Wake up! No nation is innocent - except maybe those that have no state. [/QUOTE] It is in many many history books written in a subjective way because the Armenian diaspora buried its 40 years to this cause,working in every possible way, doing the every possible thing for this. |
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We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough; we couldn't find neither; we made up sorrows for ourselves; we couldn't be consoled; A Strange Orhan Veli |
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Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6565 |
Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 20:27 |
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You read any history book anywhere in Europe and you will find both genocides mentioned. The Turk Special Group proceded to organize death camps but specially massive deportations in conditions that led to death. Cold blood killings were also done. You can read it anywhere, starting by Wikipedia. It's estimated that 1,500,000 Armenians (out of possibly 2 million) died in that process. It's obvious and undeniable. Of course there are Nazis that deny the Holocaust too. |
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NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
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Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6565 |
Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 20:17 |
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I don't read much Armenian propaganda: everybody out of Turkey knows that there was a violent genocide on Armenians in the efatermath of WWII and that it was perpetrated by Turkey. It's in all history books. Wake up! What I say is that justifying or trying to hide a genocide is to be accomplice and doesn't say anything in favor of the persons and/or nation that does it. Rather the opposite. I think that history requires of criticism and humlity and not of glorification of violence nor pretending that our nations are the best of the world. All nation-states are subject to criticism, and all have violated human rights in different ways. No nation is innocent - except maybe those that have no state. |
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NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
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Artaxiad
Baron
Joined: 10-Aug-2004 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 488 |
Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 17:32 |
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Turkey and Israel are close partners, so Israel and the Jewish lobby try to defend Turkey on all occasions. At least, the Chief Rabbi of Israel and many Jewish historians like Yair Auron recognize the Armenian genocide. JEWISH RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY RECOGNIZES ARMENIAN GENOCIDE: CHIEF RABBI OF ISRAEL
YEREVAN, NOVEMBER 22. ARMINFO. The Jewish religious community recognizes the Armenian Genocide, Chief Rabbi of Israel Yona Metzger said at the Armenian Genocide Memorial in Yerevan today. He said that despite the position of the Israeli authorities the Israeli religious community acknowledges the fact of the Armenian Genocide and mourns for its innocent victims together with the Armenian people. Metzger laid flowers to the memorial and sang a Jewish prayer. Then he visited the Armenian Genocide Museum and left a note in the guests' book. Metzger is visiting Armenia on the invitation of the president of the World Armenian Congress Ara Abrahamyan who believes that Armenian-Israeli relations need intensification especially in the economy. Read this too: 3903B22AA.ASP">http://www.armenialiberty.org/armeniarepor t/r eport/en/2005/11/F16B8F39-39DA-4C68-90C2-8  3903B22AA.ASPEdited by Artaxiad |
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TheDiplomat
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 09-Aug-2004 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 1988 |
Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 15:37 |
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On other threads I apreciate your knowdledge a lot,Maju..but I see that here you speak up like a typical western politician..Not historian! Completely biassful remarks,and circular reasoning. Do u know what is circular reasoning?In ethics we define a situation circular reasioning when someone has already decided the correctedness of his argument... My grand-grand father was killed by Armeno-Rus attacks,so I wil not let you make crap on this so easily Not only in Turkey.....But also in more than hundred countries..Mr.gAMEMASTER Especially in Israel...Israel strongly condemned the mispresentation of Armenian historians. My idea about this issue is not the the nationalist approach...same with the israeli aproaach I agree with Shimon Peres... ''The Armenian allegations are meaningless..'' |
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ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever!
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The Guardian
Shogun 
Joined: 12-Jul-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 237 |
Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 12:54 |
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Germany was defeated and invaded |
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It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up.
&nb |
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Kapikulu
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 07-Aug-2004 Location: Berlin Online Status: Offline Posts: 1914 |
Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 11:03 |
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Documented? Actually it consists of all those maps and long sentences of hate... There had been found no official documents of that time at first hand. (what I mean is, any documents left from that era, 1915-20) claiming such a "genocide" had been made, except subjective sources...Such as the Blue Book, such as letters of Morgenthau, who was an American official who was working most to create an Armenian state... Later on, the issue had been scrutinized, together with some credible, but subjective writers such as Martin Gilbert, Arnold Toynbee etc. and many others writing crooked facts towards the wish of Armenians and of course,the diaspora.The facts had been changed, in fact, people dying in relocation was shown as being killed deliberately by Ottoman soldiers.Turkey never saw any reason to defend herself against those claims, as in this issue, considered herself so right..And, couldn't be as hardworking as Armenians did. And it is being continued to use as a master-card against Turkey, probably in every country, and it still does. Why are your trues has to be our trues? Relocation yes, many Armenians and Turks died, yes, Armenians due to the poor conditions of relocations and Turks due to Armenian attacks, but deliberate genocide, no... Edited by Kapikulu |
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We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough; we couldn't find neither; we made up sorrows for ourselves; we couldn't be consoled; A Strange Orhan Veli |
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The Guardian
Shogun
Joined: 12-Jul-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 237 |
Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 11:01 |
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What my country has done is nowhere near the nazis.It seems to me that you have no idea what happened.tell me maju-what happened in those years, and in which years the events you speak of occured? Germany's crime was obvious, undeniable and accepted worldwide-the Armenian genocide is not like that matter |
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It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up.
&nb |
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Mortaza
Tsar 
Joined: 21-Jul-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3711 |
Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 06:31 |
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Because unlike Germany, which has made a clear review of its oast and accepted its guilt. Turkey hasn't. Maybe you just killed a fraction but you keep denying you did, so you are still acomplices of the genocides.
So almost all countries are guilty, after all it is only germany. Maju I think you read to much armenian propoganda, this is complately what they said. And this is complately rubish. will you accuse me to make a genocide too? I deny this thing. Hail Hitler, with your simple logic I becomed nazi. Edited by Mortaza |
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Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6565 |
Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 06:13 |
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Because unlike Germany, which has made a clear review of its oast and accepted its guilt. Turkey hasn't. Maybe you just killed a fraction but you keep denying you did, so you are still acomplices of the genocides. |
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NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
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The Guardian
Shogun
Joined: 12-Jul-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 237 |
Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 04:21 |
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No, if you had read my earlier post I was asking for the official site of the German documents.This sentence is highly offensive, you are putting my entire nation in the same place as the Nazis. |
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It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up.
&nb |
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The Guardian
Shogun
Joined: 12-Jul-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 237 |
Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 04:17 |
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Which countries and where is it documented?I never heard of classes taught on the matter.... |
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It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up.
&nb |
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Kapikulu
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 07-Aug-2004 Location: Berlin Online Status: Offline Posts: 1914 |
Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 22:47 |
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Why do you still scratch the issue which has been discussed million times and couldn't be able to go nowhere?Now, in several different topics, topics are being tried to be directed into the same issue... Please, don't make this forum's peace and enjoyability be toppled. Edited by Kapikulu |
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We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough; we couldn't find neither; we made up sorrows for ourselves; we couldn't be consoled; A Strange Orhan Veli |
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Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6565 |
Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 22:18 |
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One probelm that some people have is that they over-relate to their
ancestors: today Turks who weren't alive in 1920 say "we" when talking
about this issue (or others).
Instead I don't relate at all to the actions of my ancestors: ones were with the fascists, the others evading the war, none with the revolution. So when I say the fascists invaded this or massacred that, I don't think "we". Because even if some of my ancestors were somehow involved, I am not them. This is important. I think that my great-uncles died fighting against Greece because they were idiots and because of Mussolini. I don't think like the histeric of my mother does: "how evil are the Greeks because "they" killed my uncle this and that". I hope we can lean back and look at this issue not as "us" and "they", but as "they" and "they". You weren't there, you were't involved, you belong to a totally diferent generation and reality. |
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NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
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Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6565 |
Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 22:04 |
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A Turk oficial site? That doesn't exist but one wouldn't expect a Nazi site on the Holocaust, would you? Go and ask the Neo-Nazis if the Holocacust happened? A few will admit and defend it but many will deny it. Go and aske the Israelis about the expulsion of Plaestinians in 1948. They are still denying it. Go and ask the Chinese about the Uygurs. Go and ask Milosevic on Bosnia. Go and ask the genocidals or their defendants... Go... Edited by Maju |
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NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
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?That much? Then %2 of USA is consisted of Armenians...
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