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The most powerful Meso American culture?
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JanusRook View Drop Down
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Posts: 2419 		  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The most powerful Meso American culture?
    Posted: 14-Nov-2004 at 11:31

*Methinks Jalisco could do a better job of this.

Actually its amazing the mesoamericans were conquered by so few spanish and so little resistance. The metal armor was great in battle but not nearly invincible, nor could they wear it all of the time so an ambush would be deadly. Also the guns weren't the spaniards weapons of choice, too often would they break down and plus the reload time was horrendous. Their deadliest weapons were their swords, which could cut through flesh like butter.

The mesoamericans on the other hand were far from spears and loin-cloths, They had a nasty obsidian sword which would just rend flesh and smash bones. Also their fighting styles were totally different the spaniards fought to kill but the mesoamericans fought to capture slaves for human sacrifices.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2004 at 17:11
I understand. But it's very possible that when a native said something like "over there's a wealthy empire ruled by Kukul Can"  Columbus understood " over there's a wealthy empire ruled by Kublai Khan", confirming his idea he reached Asia.
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Posts: 952 		  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2004 at 17:09

I have vague memories about Diaz saying something about one of the mainland chiefs of Tabasco being the brother of one of the Carribean island chiefs. But it's a long time since I read it and I may be wrong.

Many people have suggested that Aztec and Inca goods may have made it to each other through merchants, trading on to other merchants and so on. Similarly to the way China and Rome traded with little knowledge of each other.
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Posts: 4310 		  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2004 at 16:52

Originally posted by MixcoatlToltecahtecuhtli

The Aztec empire included the current Mexican state of Veracruz on the Gulf of Mexico, but I never heard about Aztec commerce with the Caribbean islanders.

I remember reading someone who thought that when Columbus thought 'the great Khan' lived somewhere around Cuba, natives may have told him about Kukul Can. It sounds a little weird, but on the other hand Yucatan is not that far away from Cuba, so it may be possible that stories about Kukul Can reached Cuba.

 

well columbus didnt know it was a new continent, he thought he was in India or soemthing, so maybe he meant the Khan as in descendant of Kublai khan as the last reliable information on teh east to him was marco polos travels so he did not know the yuan dynasty had fallen
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2004 at 11:08
The Aztec empire included the current Mexican state of Veracruz on the Gulf of Mexico, but I never heard about Aztec commerce with the Caribbean islanders.

I remember reading someone who thought that when Columbus thought 'the great Khan' lived somewhere around Cuba, natives may have told him about Kukul Can. It sounds a little weird, but on the other hand Yucatan is not that far away from Cuba, so it may be possible that stories about Kukul Can reached Cuba.
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Posts: 4310 		  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2004 at 01:09

Originally posted by Christscrusader

Mesoamerican culture is pretty primative compared to even ancient empires such as the ancient greek, egyptian, assyrian, and chinese

 

Im guessing you dont know anythign about mesoamerican culture, most people that write off others as priitives usually do so out of ignorance.  No one had as accurate astronomy as the Mayans, or as flouishing architecture as the Aztecs, Mayans etc, whose buildings stand during earthquakes while the modern buildings collapse.  Over half the foos eaten in the worlds today by anyone around the world is likely to be from nativ american agriculture, and even the Un and US have strong native american influences in their governemnt structures.
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Posts: 4310 		  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2004 at 00:44
No, but if they did the more unified, cohesive, and technologically superior Inca would have probably been the senior player.
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Posts: 204 		  Quote Imperatore Dario I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2004 at 19:48
Did the Inca Empire and Aztec Empire ever come in contact?

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Posts: 85 		  Quote maersk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2004 at 05:16
actually the incas and aztecs did have seaworthy ships, however the incas only sailed up and down the pacific coast of south america, (though there may be evidence of them reaching easter island sometime in the 1400's, as thor heyerdahl had predicted) and the aztecs, through client cultures, sailed in the caribbean and traded with the arawaks.
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Posts: 204 		  Quote Imperatore Dario I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2004 at 16:01

I like the Incan Empire, even though they don't count/

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Posts: 85 		  Quote maersk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2004 at 20:36
id have to say olmecs, just because they where the wellspring of maya & later aztec cultures..........
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Posts: 952 		  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2004 at 09:06

Hi!

I'll go for Teotihuacan. I remember a Nigel Davies book from years ago pointing more Teotihuacan architectual influence, trade goods, art and artifacts can be found around Mexico than any other culture. Also they most famous thing worldwide Mexico has ever produced is the Pyramid of the Sun.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 06:01

Originally posted by Imperatore Dario I

Any of you guys notice that all the countries that had great ancient civilizations are today relatively poor nations?

About 90% of all countries may be considered poor, so it quite logical that many countries that had great civilizations are.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 16:28

Yeah,  200 million people seems to be a stretch
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Posts: 6003 		  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 15:27
I wouldn't call Italy poor, far from it, its one of the top ten economies of the world.

What the slave trade did was rob a continent of over 200,000,000 inhabitants and make the economies dependent on exportation.


You mean 10 to 15 million?
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Posts: 4310 		  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 13:46

Africa was MUCH better off befoer the Europeans came,  The argument that they were living on the dark before is BS.  Zimbabwe, Mali, Ghana, Kongo, where all organized kingdoms and Mali was arguable the wealthiest kingdom of the 15th century.  What the slave trade did was rob a continent of over 200,000,000 inhabitants and make the economies dependent on exportation.

Although Europe and African slave traders cant take all the blame, Morrocco also destroyed large libraries containing masses of knowledge and cities were lost in the Sudan.

 

Also, in response to Darios point, I think the higher you rise the harder you fall, everyone has a time in the sun, America was once a farming backwater, now a world superpower, and in the future it wont be number 1 power anymore.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 13:23
Also, this may be just me but it seems that before the colonization of Europe Africa was better off,  is it true or am I just misinformed?
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Imperatore Dario I View Drop Down
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Posts: 204 		  Quote Imperatore Dario I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 11:46

Any of you guys notice that all the countries that had great ancient civilizations are today relatively poor nations?

Egypt - Ancient Egypt

Greece - Ancient Greece, Minoa

Tunisia - Carthage

China - China, Tibet

India - Indus Valley civilization, Mauryan Empire, whatever else

Mexico - Aztec civilization

Hundouras - Mayan Empire

Peru - Incan civilization

Armenia - Armenian Empire

Georgia - Georgian Kingdom

Italy - (well, compared to some European nations) Rome, Eturia, Magna Grecia(?)

Iran - Elam, Persia, Parthia, Sassanian Persia

 

I mean, wow, did any of you guys actually notice this?

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Posts: 474 		  Quote Cornellia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 06:26

I think Cywr is right.  I remember attending a lecture where they theorized just that - that it wasn't practical because of the steep grade.  Even today, there are areas where even with improved roads, its still rather impractical to get a wheeled transport up and down the mountains.

I'll see if I can find any of the notes from that lecture. 

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Posts: 192 		  Quote Roughneck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 06:02
That wheel connection isn't as obvious as it looks I suspect.  OIt is to us because we all see wheels literally every day from birth and it's been that way for thousands upon thousands of years, be they cars or carts.  but I suspect the original thought was rather revolutionary.
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