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  Quote Amedeo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Of the History of European Languages
    Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 01:14
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 09:43
Are you proposing that IE European languages were spoken always in Europe or what? I must say that I don't understand what you mean and why do yoy stabilish an arbitrary line at 600 BCE, a date that doesn't fit with any historical  or proto-historical event except the flourishing of Classical Greece and the foundation of Marseilles. 

I find very arbitrary to classify the languages on mere geographical grounds and I don't understand the purpose of it. While Western IE languages do form a philological sub-family, including most existent European languages, I see no reason to relate Latin with Basque or Estonian, being these three examples of the three main "native" families of Europe. This only using "native" according to your arbitrary line of 600 BCE. It is dubious that IE or Finnish family languages were present in Europe, at least in Central and Western Europe, before a badly defined date that could well be 35000 BCE. There was surely no relevant presence of IE languages in Western Europe before c. 1300 BCE (Urnfields expansion). So why don't you place your line in 6,000 BCE and consider "native European" languages only those spoken in the Paleolithic?, I wonder. I would say it is a much more satisfying concept in my opinion.

Better quit using the term "native" and start using "ancient" instead (but placing the line in a better defined moment, such 1300/1100 BCE or 400/300 BCE). There were cultural transmission processes before the Greeks and Romans, there were migrations, invasions, cultural genocides and (a few) powerful states before.

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  Quote Surbel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 10:11
 Maju if you had read what i posted  under: Archaeology, Anthropology & Linguistics Topic name with SLAV,you wouldnt be so sceptical.

 
 Ulphila's "Gothic" alphabet
(26 letters ) (see characters also in   http://tribal.abv.bg).

Invented by Bishop Ulphila (Ulfilas, or Wulfila - 4 c. AD) in Roman town Nikopolis ad Istrum, the present village Nikup in the central northern part of Bulgaria (20 km north from the former capital Veliko Tarnovo). >>

Interesting�� research articles aboutUlphila, Arians, �Goths� and �Geths� can be found in the very recent book �Goti i Geti� (Editor A. Tschilingirov, Publishers �Ziezi ex quo Vulgares�, Sofia 2005 (in Bulgarian)). In particular the correct name Urphila is noted there instead ofcommonly used�� Ulphila (Ulfila) and Wulphila (Wulfila).


Ulphila 'gothic' alphabet



   First texts written with Ulphila �Gothic� alphabet: It is accepted that this is the Bible, translated from Greek in the midle of 4 c. AD by the west gothic bishop Ulphila himself (in the Nicopolis ad Istrum in central Moesia (present Bulgaria). This translated Bible is considered as the first literary monument of the German culture. The oldest available transcript of the translation known as Codex argenteus was made around a 100 years later in Ravena [see e.g. E. Staycheva, Literaturen forum, 12 (2002) 496 (electronic version:   estaycheva.htm , in Bulgarian)] .  The alphabet pictures provided here reveal large similarity, including coinciding letters, between Ulphila alphabet and the Cyrillic one. ��
  Many respectful scholars, ancient and modern ones (in particular Jordanes (6 c. AD) and G. Tzenoff and S. Lesnoy (20 c.) � see e.g. the above cited new book �Goti i Geti� (�Goths and Geths� ) by A. Tschilingirov and the extensive bibliography there in) identifyGothsfrom the lower Danube and Black see area with the Geths of the same territory, and not with the German (Teuton) Goths (Gothones). In the light of this the arian (aryan) bishop Ulphila (Urphila),and his alphabet are �Gethic�. In the middle ages narratives the terms �Geths� (Getas), �Goths� (Gothos) or �Schyths' (Schitians) are frequently used for Thracs (Thracians), Slaves or Bulgarians.For example, St. Hieronimus (4c., the translator of the Aethicus Cosmopgraphy, writes about �seven Getic or Gothic tribeswhich live in the north, since Getas are called by the learned menGothos� (�Et certe Gothos omnes retro erudity, magis Getas � appellare�� -- this citation is taken from the G. Tzenoff book �The Huns�, Sofia, 2002 (first edition in 1940)), while on his World map St. Hieronimus notes �Moesia this is (also) Bulgaria� (�Misia hec et Vulgaria�. On the other hand it is commonly accepted that in the 4 c. AD Gothos (in particular the gothic bishop Ulphila) lived in Moesia. (Note that in old narratives Vulgaria = Bulgaria: the change B --> V comes from Greek, where sound B is missing, the character B being pronounced as V).
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  Quote Surbel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 10:17

Linguistics professor emphasizes minority awareness

By Jared Jones NewsNet Staff Writer - 2 Dec 2002
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Understanding the history of minority groups in the world was a major topic of Randall L. Jones' lecture, Nov. 20.

Jones, a professor of Germanic and Slavic languages, spoke at an international forum series hosted by the David M. Kennedy Center for International Studies. His lecture focused on the Sorbs, a minority group living in Germany.

"These are not people who migrated here centuries ago from another part of Eastern Europe," said Jones. "Nor are they asylum seekers who have recently fled their homeland for a better life. They have been where they are now for approximately 1,500 years."

Ironically, the Sorbs arrived in Germany even before the German speakers did, he said.

"They are an interesting people who managed to maintain their linguistics and cultural identity against major odds," Jones said. "It is a fascinating culture which time seems to have forgotten."

Despite linguistic and cultural differences, the German government and local German speakers are supportive of their Sorbian neighbors, he said.

"In the case of Sorbian and Germany, one could say there is peaceful co-existence," Jones said. "However, most people outside of Germany have never heard of the Sorbs and can't imagine that the significant sub-culture exists in one of the largest and most powerful nations in Europe."

The Sorbs reside in an area of Germany know as Lusatia or Lausitz, Jones said. The nation of Germany strives to honor the culture and identity of the Sorbs in Lusatia by maintaining all public signs in both languages, despite the fact that Sorbs speak both Sorbian and German.

"Virtually all Sorbian speakers are bilingual: Sorbian and German," Jones said. "And yet this is simply a mark of the cultural identity to help people understand this is a bilingual city."

Although he admitted he doesn't speak Sorbian, Jones said he is interested in the minority group because it exists in Germany, and German is his area of study.

"Because the Sorbian speakers are in Germany it is of interest to me because I have done a lot of work recently with social linguistic aspects of languages," Jones said.

          http://newsnet.byu.edu/story.cfm/41121
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  Quote Amedeo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 15:57
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  Quote Amedeo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 00:30
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 08:48
To Surbel: don't mix the Goths here, please. That they used a semi-Greek alphabet doesn't mean that they weren't Germans. And after all, it doesn't even matter for Amadeo's topic. 

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 09:31
Amadeo:

You are being very contradictory. You say you will talk not about Indo-European languages but about European languages in a geographical sense and then you exclude happily all non-IE languages. You could argue that Finnish or Etruscan may be West Asian in origin (but, even in that case, they arrived to Europe as soon as IE or maybe even before) but you just can't exclude Basque in any case when talking about European languages, as this is the only survivor that we can say 100% sure that was spoken in Europe (in its primitive form) in Paleolithic times.

So why don't you change your discourse and start talking plainly about Western IE languages?

Also later, you start happily and contraditorily to compare with Asian IE languages, what makes no sense unless you do work within the frame of IE languages that you want to reject.

Anyow some abysmal errors:


the indigenous German or Germanic language was a very limited language whose generic content was augmented by other languages


This is a typical abusive pretension. We know that all languages are very complete for their context. The theories pretending that some languages are superior to others have long been discredited. True that languages borrow neologisms from each other but that's all.

We have no historical knowledge as to how Latin descends from Greek, but the fact remains that Greek, Latin, and the Romance languages, have innumerable cognates.


This has two explanations:
a) Simmilar Mediterranean subsratum (Mediterranean Neolithic culture from Greece to Spain, pre-Hellenic strong Aegean influences in Italy and Spain - and some in inverse direction)
b) Classical Greek influence

Anyhow the cognates are not enough to pretend that they are closely related.

Persia, for instance, developed its indigenous language  wih the "Levantine" substrate that was preserved also in Europe.  As it was never conquered by "Arab" people, linguists  say to this day that Pharsi is an "Indo-European language."


But we know that ancient Iranians spoke a totally unrelated language: Elamite, wich has only been related to Dravidian.

We also know that Iranian and Indo-Aryan languages are closely related (about as much as Germanic or Latin to Slavic) and that they (as a whole) are related to the rest of IE languages, particularly those that you arbitrarily call "European" (Western IE).

Finally, Iran was conquered by Arab peoples in the 7th century and remained under Arab rule for several centuries after that. Exactly the same that happened to Egypt or Syria or Iraq, none of which had been before under Arab rule (though Syria and Iraq were Semitic-speaking regions already but speaking different Semitic languages, most notably Aramaic).

The Italian Di` and the Spanish Dias are cognate Romance words (from Latin, part of Aegean) and the English Day and German Tag are cognate Germanic words.  So, here we have cognates in two super-families


Not sure about Italian but Spanish for day is da (not das, which is days).

Most importantly: you use the term super-family to talk about sub-sub-families: Germanic and Italic are cognates in all IE classifications I have ever seen, as much as Baltic is cognate with Slavic.

I think you should study better the IE theory before you can debunk it with some authority.

I have a thesis which is not fully proven yet: the ancient cognates of the European languages [NOT THE WHOLE OF THE INDIGENOUS EUROPEAN LANGUAGES]  are based on two pristine languages: Sumerian and proto/archaic Greek


I can't deny that there may well be a SW Asian substratum that may have influenced all or most Western-IE languages in some complex via Neolithic, Chalcolithic and Bronze Age influences mostly but put forward some evidence or at least indications (sources, lists of words... something!) befor you make such a claim, please.

As you are talking about IE languages, another possibility is that the "Sumerian" influence could come via Central Asia/Caucasus in the Neolithic period.

Archaic Greek itself was formed indigenously west of Sumer (in the Levant-Anatolia area) and had linguistic exchanges with Sumer.


Untrue. We actually know little about where proto-Greek was formed. The mst likely candidates are in the Chalcolithic Balcans.

Summer was virtually dead by that time. Though I can't exclude some remote Akkadian influx, it must have been very small.

Most of the populations that moved out of the Middle East went either west or east.


Well... the fact is that genetics is proving each day more that there were almost no population movements in the Neolithic or later. Except for the northernmost regions, wich were relatively empty and probably Greece itself and a few then virgin islands, Europe has kept basically the population that it had at the end of the Paleolithic.

Also you are arbitrarily (and without any evidence so far) defending the ulikely out-of-Anatolia theory, that clashes with the evidence that Hatti (the main aboriginal language of Anatolia) wasn't IE (but Caucasic) and much other archaelogical and linguistic evidence.

...

I suggest you to look at THIS LIST of numerals for IE languages, a quite solid evidence of the connection of IE languages and the difference between them and the rest.

I also suggest you to take a look (just for fun) to THE SPECULATIVE GRAMMARIAN, a place to post the weirdest pseudo-linguistic theories.

Finally I suggest you to look at this (pretty solid) tree of IE languages, so you get an idea of how they may be related:



This gloto-chronologic tree was created using a standard philological list of 100 words (maybe 200 - not sure now) and neighbour joining the results by the two standard systems (applied in genetics) of minimal and maximal evolution, yielding the same results. (Sorry about the names in Spanish, anyhow, it's easy to read, considering that most scientific names are Latin-derived).

In the tree you can see that live IE is divided in two main branches: Western and Eastern, with two minor longer branches for Armenian and Albanian. Among Western IE, Greek is the first one to separate, favoring that it was formed in the Balcans. Then Celtic, for which I have no good explanation, and then the two main groups:Italo-Germanic and Balto-Slavic.

Alternative trees I've seen follow the same general structuure, being the main divergences about the place of the long minor branches. Some place Albanian with Eastern IE, Greek and Armenian together in a separate branch and Celtic within the Italo-Germanic group.

And don't tell me now that you are not talking about IE. You are. The very moment you excluded non-IE European languages, you restricted yourself to IE.


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  Quote Amedeo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 11:15
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 13:10
While you aren't able to demonstrate reasonably a non-IE frame you can't discuss authoritatively the IE paradigm. For that you would have to be able to group some IE with non-IE languages and exclude some major IE languages from that improved frame. I don't think that neither you can nor you are even interested in going through that stage.

You seem to have a particular aversion to the IE theory. You argue that it is beacuse that implies that the language would have developed in South Asia. I see a bit of racism in that reasoning but anyhow...

... No major theory on the origins of IE languages talk of South Asia as its origin. A fact that seems to bother also natinonalist Indians (Hindutva). In fact, the original theory was very Euro-centric, claiming that IE was originated in Northern Europe (hence the absurd claims of Hitler bout "Aryans"). Fortunately, it's been reasonably proven so far that whichever the origin of IE it was not in Northern Europe.

The mainstream theory (first stated by Marija Gimbutas) proposes that PIE speakers lived somewhere in the steppes ranging from Ukraine to Khazakstan. It is the "Kurgan tehory". I support this theory with some corrections on Gimbutas initial assumptions, mostly that the core of PIEs were in the Volga-Ural region and only later moved into the Don-Dniepr area, from where they sprang into Europe.

There are some other theories, mostly the ones that state that PIE was originally spoken by the core of Neolithic farmers spreading into Europe from Anatolia (Renfrew's theory). Yet this one has many flaws: from Hattis speaking a non-IE language to the fact that genetics show now that no major ammount of SW Asian genetic material entered in Europe with Neolithic difussion, so it's hard to see how a tiny minority would have imposed their language on the majority without the military domination that the "Kurganites" are supposed to have brought with them.

In brief: your racist reasons to fear IE theory are (at least so far) unfounded (which doesn't excuse the implicit racism anyhow). Most likely IEs sprung from the Volga region with the following approximate chronology applied for Europe (all dates BCE):
  • c. 3500 - Ukraine and nearby areas (separation of Western IE branch)
  • c. 3250 - Eastern Germany and Poland
  • c. 3100 - Wallachia (Rumania)
  • c. 3000 - Eastern Balcans (with great admixture)
  • c. 2600 - consolidation in Central Europe, expansion to the Panonnian and Western Balcanic region
  • c. 2400 - Scandinavia and Western Germany
  • c. 2000 - Greece and Anatolia
  • c. 1300 - some localized regions of France, England, Spain and Italy
  • c. 700 - further into Western Europe
  • c. 600 - they loss of NW Spain to Iberians
  • c. 300 - further Celtic expansion into the British Islands, Gaul, etc.
  • c. 50 - Roman Empire: Iberians start speaking IE too
On the Eastern branch, they seem to have migrated into their present areas in the 1st milennium BCE. Albanian is still a mistery though if you want my humble guess, I suspect they could be an avant-guard that came with the misterious Black&Beige pottery invaders c. 5000 BCE (Dimini-Vinca culture). Just a guess.

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  Quote Amedeo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 13:41
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  Quote Amedeo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 14:34
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 17:19
Maybe I misunderstood your reasoning but your sentence:

(...) Therefore, once upon a time there was a people  [the Aryans or the Indo-Europeans, somewhere in southern Asia] that spoke P-I-E.


... clearly points to your belief that IE originated in Southern Asia, aka India and that was the reason of your usage of "European" over widely accepted IE.

You use a very personal language and while some of your ideas my be valid the way you put he forth is so confuse that nobody would probaly accept them.

For instance you use "proto-Greek", what means the precursor of Greek (the same that "proto-IE" means the precursor of IE languages). But now you say that:


Proto-Greek and Greek grew autonomously, but the content of proto-Greek which is found in non-Aegean languages did not grow autonomously there.


... what seems to point to a different idea: that proto-Greek is not the precursor of Greek but something totally diferent that, obviously shouldn't have that name in logical consequence.

You should expose your ideas in a manner that fits the thoughts of the rest of the world. If I call "rock" to what most people call "water", nobody will understand me, that's pretty clear, isn't it?

...

So you think that Semitic languages grew out in Ethiopia. I'm interested because I've always forun the origin of Semitic peoples a mistery.

...

I still think that all or most languages are able to create "out of nothing" any term by composition or another arbitrary method. Obviously a culture that has never seen iron will have to either invent or import a term for that but that doesn't mean that the language is poor. What did they need te term "iron" before they saw the first iron object?

In fact foreign influence can be percieved as impoverishing, speciallye when there are internal alternatives inside the native language (and almost always they are) to replace the foreign terms. For example in French it has become common to use "weekend" instead of the longer native "fin de semaine", yet in Spanish this hasn't happened and the native neologism "finde" (abbreviation of "fin de semana") is now becoming very popular and soon will be in the dictionaries. What is better then? To import words or to make up new ones our of the native resources. I don't have a strong opinion about that but it seems more genuine the second option. The existence of synonims is nothing that says about the richess of a language except maybe for artistic purposes - unless the synonims are not total synonims but different concepts of simmilar nature like "roble" and "encina" in Spanish for different types of oak.

In this sense, with civilization, you can gain new terms but you may also lose many related with pre-urban activities. The language adapts to the daily needs and what is not needed anymore is lost eventually. It's presumptuous to think otherwise. How many terms for snow do we have in most languages? One, maybe two or three. Inuits have dozens!

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  Quote Amedeo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2006 at 11:08
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2006 at 14:24
Originally posted by Amedeo

Originally posted by Maju

Maybe I misunderstood your reasoning but your sentence:

(...) Therefore, once upon a time there was a people  [the Aryans or the Indo-Europeans, somewhere in southern Asia] that spoke P-I-E.


... clearly points to your belief that IE originated in Southern Asia, aka India and that was the reason of your usage of "European" over widely accepted IE.

..................................


It's getting worse and worse... The idea that once upon there was a people that spoke PIE is NOT my idea. It is a consequence of the theorists of Indo-European languages WHICH I REJECT.
So, there is no point for me to further discuss false attributions.
-------------------------------------


Sorry: but you should start explaining why you do reject the widely accepted IE theory. Without settling that first there's no possible further discussion.

Aprioristically rejecting it is no argumentation, no logic, no proof. Just a wild caprice that you seem to have and caress.

And I REJECT that you call "European languages" to a group of languages that doesn't include the only sure 100% native European linguistic developement: Basque.


Apples, languages...... same thing.
Seeds, cognates........same thing.


Wrong! Absolutely wrong!

Cognates are not the seeds: Basque and English share many cognates like "telephone" but that doesn't mean that they are related. Cognates aren't seeds. You are trying to describe the seed (genetics) from the mery appearence of some leaves, without considering that these leaves may all be infected by the same virus, that produces the same sort of marks.

You don't know how the seed of a tree was by studying the simple appearence of some arbitrarily chosen leaves.

And languages are not biological organisms anyhow. They can perfectly incorporate easily many novelties, wether from other languages or from local "random" innovation. Their "genetics" is more like that of the virus: flexible, incorporating possibly many elements of the cells that it infects.

To know the "seed", without the "magic" of genetic science, you must first study the languages in depth. It happens that the IE language family is the most studied on Earth and, except you, nobody else questions that they are genetically related.

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  Quote Amedeo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2006 at 16:38
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2006 at 18:37
Now you start with "Nordids" and all that sordid stuff. 

Listen: if you cared a little more about genetics and even if you cared a little more about physical appearence you would know that there is no Nordic group as such.

If we follow the throught work of Cavalli-Sforza on European genetics, we see that there are 5 Principal Components (PCs) in the European genetic pool. None of them fits with the geographic description of "Nordic". This is very logical when you think about it as many "racializators" had noticed that the complexion of the "Nordic type" is close to that of Mediterraneans despite their rather pale skin.

Yet I have personally noticed (I'm also a free thinker but I've learned to respect others' works as well, critically of course) that when you fuse the Cavalli-Sforza genetic maps for the main PCs, you get a gradation that can somehow fit the apparent perception of "racial" gradation in a N-S axis. But it's not any simple bipolar gradation but actually a mixture of several polar gradations. the apparently more mixed area in this regard would be Britain and nearby regions.

In any case the genetics of Europeans (and for the case SW Asians) are so simmilar to each other that it's trivial to attempt to make any "racial" diferentiation. Only Sardinians and Lapps stand somehow apart.

I msut also say that ethnicities are cultural constructs and that normally their core element is language and subjective identification. Do not mix ethinicities with supposed "races" because that goes nowhere.

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  Quote Amedeo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 17:45
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  Quote Amedeo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 21:21
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 23:43
So Latin origins are Aegean? Since when? 

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