Hulagu, if you think we have no culture, then go and find yourself a better one, because we are happy with ours, and it is the inheritance of our history. Only the ones who respect this inheritance deserve to own it. Go and find yourself a simpler one, as a Mongol wannabe...
Oguzoglu it is not about my wishes, or wannabe things.
We lack culture, we do not have a strong vocabulary. Half of Turkish words are coming from either Arabic or Farsi. We made history, but we didn' t write history, We learn our history from Latins, Greeks, Chinese, Iranians, and Arabs.
I am not mongol wannabe, I have the chance to listen to the Turkish History guy Kamuran Gurun. He and Dogan Avcioglu are the only big historians about our middle asian history. Both directly translates Barthold and Grousset anyway. Hahahahahahah. That guy has some mental problem in his mind. Anything attacks islam is non-Turkish for him. And Shiite Islam means Iran for him. Any kinda Turk who converts to Shiite Islam is Iranified for him. Qajars, Il Khanids, Timurids, Safavids, all are Iranian for him. Gurun had the strongest claim of Mogolians outside this family. He created a new nation there. Well if we look at from this point, noone in middle asia calls themselves Turks, but KAzaks, Kirghizs, Uighurs, Mongolians, etc...
But we lack culture, our culture is under the invasion of American, French and off course Arabic culture. Our shops have French names. Our schools give English teaching. Our worships are arabic.
Noone can change their country, I have no such aim. Lacking culture will not decrease my love to my people.
well before islam you didnt have much important civilization did you? so the Alphabet which you used when you became a powerfull state was the secound one and turkish used it for more than a 1000 years and it is a big part of your history and culture and language by changing it with no logical reasons you just isolated the modern turkish from their history.
Before converting Islam, Seljuks and Mongols achieved many things including invasion of islamic lands. Qarakhanids were also strong. We have two titans of Middle Asian History, Xiong Nu and Tu-chueh.
But we are easy to assimilate. Strong Persian and later Roman Culture absorbed the Turkish culture and many Turkik dynasties served as the successors of Sassanids for example, Ghaznavids. Not Islam, but Persian culture coming with islam helped us in many occasions, yes I accept this and yes we liked the Persian Islamic civilization, and chose it. But we lost some other things to while gaining civilized lifestyle.
We Turks have only a military background. You know what, when Turks first invaded Islamic lands, the drunk Turkish soldiers hung around the streets. THey were not used to a rich and peaceful life. Coming from Mongolian Steps, to the best city of the world, Baghdad. LOL.
Anyway lets turn back to topic. Now, if I say, lets change worshipping to Turkish, people will call me infidel. That is the biggest reasin I say we lack culture.
Well, we can better say that Islamic civilization and Turkic civilization assimilated in each other. Today, lots of things that you know as Islamic are from Turkic origin (crescent-star, many believs of Alevi/Bektashi etc., Islamic procedures like "mevlid"- remember sagu? and etc.), and lots of things you know as Turkish are originally Islamic. But the thing is, it became a synthesis of civilizations, like Iranians becoming Shias, and Turks developing Islam. There happened no real assimilations, but cultural synthesis.
If you look at our history since ancient times, there were more than 20 important Turkic empires found, and most of their flags have different colors, symbols etc. Our empires were found and expanded in very different regions of the world, from Northern Europe to Korea, from Himalayas to India, from Egypt to northern Siberia. They were mostly influenced with the civilization of the region they expanded/immigrated.
But you miss the terms "culture" and "civilization". Turks have one of the strongest cultures in the world, the nomadic Turkic culture that is still alive since thousands of years. Our cultural elements are very adaptable to every conditions, and capable of cultural evolution, but still keeps its origins. Today, despite the cultural influences and distances btw all Turkic people, all of us share most of our ancient cultural elements, all over the world, no matter how it evoluted and changed shape.
But about civilization, we dont lack of civilization, we lack of a "constant" civilization. You would see some Gothic style Hunnic buildings in northern Europe, and Indian style houses during the time of Babur Shah. But all of them are unique among the other examples of those architectures. Because they still contain their Turkic cultural elements in them, like we can still see our nomadic tent style domes in lots of anatolian mosques. That is the unique property of Turkic civilization. Not being assimilated, but assimilating the local civilizations with its synthesis with Turkic civilization. And to me, it is the highest level of civilization evolution. This makes our civilization stronger and to last forever, in any conditions. If you look all over the world, Turks arent assimilated, but Turks assimilate. And their civilization is the one that is the most capable of being easily adapted and evoluted.
Yes, Muslim Turks mostly worship in Arabic, but only Sunnites. And worshipping in Arabic doesnt make them Arabic, like Seljuks' used Persian in official government works, but they were Turkish.
You say about half of our vocabulary is Arabic and Persian, but you are very wrong. Only the Istanbul Turkish during the Ottoman reign was like that, but the rest of Anatolian Turks have spoken a very closer language to Azeri Turkish purified from arabic/Persian words. The number of foreign words wasnt that high in Anatolian Turkish, but mainly high in religious terms, because as you know, we have learned Islam from Iranians, when we conquered and ruled them.
Today, the current Turkish is partly purified from the foreign words that governmental Turkish used during the Ottoman times, and according to the percentages in 1975-1976, the current percentage of Turkish origined words in our language is %71. It was about %52 during Ottoman times.
The interesting thing is, like I said in the last paragraphs, the Turkish culture spread all over Islamic world, even in terms of linguistics and vocabulary. Arabic and Persian sentence structures, grammatical rules have been changing since the Turkic invasions, and during the Ottoman and Safavid periods, the changing reached its highest levels. Persian vocabulary had a very large amount of turkic/Mongolian originated words under the Turkic Safavid rule. Islamic literature was under the dominiance of Turkic poets after 15th century, and even they used lots of Arabic, Persian words in their poems, other nonTurkish Islamic poets were influenced with their styles, and Turkish poems with Arabic-Persian vocabulary became very popular in the Islamic world, even btw Arabic poets. Ottomans have used lots of Arabic words, but they were always modified to a Turkish form (melleyyah- milliyet etc.) and in fact, Turks derived new words from old Arabic words according to Arabic grammer, so it can be argued that if these words should be considered as Turkish or Arabic. Today, Arabic vocabulary is mostly consisted of Arabic originated words, but almost all of those modern terms in Arabic are derived by Turkish from Arabic roots.
So it is very hard to differ Islamic civilizations from each other, because synthesis of morew than a thousand of years have heavily modified most of the Islamic civilizations, including Turks, Iranians and Arabs. This is no assimilation but synthesis.
well before islam you didnt have much important civilization did you? so the Alphabet which you used when you became a powerfull state was the secound one and turkish used it for more than a 1000 years and it is a big part of your history and culture and language by changing it with no logical reasons you just isolated the modern turkish from their history.
Well, in fact, we had. Our ancestors had a civilization that expanded in the region from Black Sea to Mongolia. But about yours, I am not sure. Semitic societies have build lots of ancent civilizations, but as you know, we cannot consider those Sem's sons as Arabs as we cant consider all sons of Yapeth as Turks.And Arabs were central/southern semites who lived as "bedoin nomads", and who used to burry babies before Islam.
You dont understand or you try to look you cant, but I'll repeat again. We had ancient alphabets, even before the Gktrk and Hunnic scripts, and then, we used our Uighur alphabet, until we became Muslims and modified Arabic alphabet into a Turkic form. In history, we have always used the most conformable one that fitted our needs the best. It is about need and use. If we become Budhist someday, we can also use a Turkified Chinese script, doesnt matter. Our alphabet isnt the thing that makes us Turkish, but our common ancestors, cultural elemenst and linguistic structures.
Today, we use our Turkified Latin script that fits very well to our language. That is logic and linguistic evolution. To stick on a constant alphabet since thousands of years dont make your language better or stronger, but older and not capable of improving. Today, we can learn English much more easier than you can. At least we can read its scripts, correctly or wrongly. Our country is much more modern and civilized than all Arabic countries, both in humanity and linguistic terms. And Alphabetic revolution provided that linguistic advantage to us. Today's international system is more advantageous if Latin script is used, so we use it. Simple logic. I hope you understood it...
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Posted: 12-Jun-2005 at 04:17
Originally posted by Oguzoglu
Well, in fact, we had. Our ancestors had a civilization that expanded in the region from Black Sea to Mongolia. But about yours, I am not sure. Semitic societies have build lots of ancent civilizations, but as you know, we cannot consider those Sem's sons as Arabs as we cant consider all sons of Yapeth as Turks.And Arabs were central/southern semites who lived as "bedoin nomads", and who used to burry babies before Islam.
yea i know arabs did not has any strong known civilization before islam. and when i say Arabs i mean Arabs not semitic, arabs are people who speak same language and understan each other.
so i guess you understand Mongolian language and understand each other since you both are Turkish.
and as far as i knew monglian changed after they became parts of other cultures like the chinese and the iranians.
Originally posted by Oguzoglu
You dont understand or you try to look you cant, but I'll repeat again. We had ancient alphabets, even before the Gktrk and Hunnic scripts, and then, we used our Uighur alphabet, until we became Muslims and modified Arabic alphabet into a Turkic form. In history, we have always used the most conformable one that fitted our needs the best. It is about need and use. If we become Budhist someday, we can also use a Turkified Chinese script, doesnt matter. Our alphabet isnt the thing that makes us Turkish, but our common ancestors, cultural elemenst and linguistic structures.
Today, we use our Turkified Latin script that fits very well to our language. That is logic and linguistic evolution. To stick on a constant alphabet since thousands of years dont make your language better or stronger, but older and not capable of improving. Today, we can learn English much more easier than you can. At least we can read its scripts, correctly or wrongly. Our country is much more modern and civilized than all Arabic countries, both in humanity and linguistic terms. And Alphabetic revolution provided that linguistic advantage to us. Today's international system is more advantageous if Latin script is used, so we use it. Simple logic. I hope you understood it...
i understood what you said and from my replay i guess it is clear that i understood what you said!
anyway i meant you had been using those alphabets for like a 1000 years and your significant history is writtin by that language or not?
so by changing it you isolated your modern turkish people from there written past, you'll need to transilate all that knowledge.
and it seems that you have to keep saying that it improved you and made you modern!! even so i gave and examples for countries from the far east and other countries. it was one man's deciession and you feel its your duty too keep definding that . well i guess you should other wise you'll be admitting that its not worth it.
and what made you think that your former alphabet was not good enough for you? how many countries are using non latin Alphabet? you think you are better or what?
and human mind can easly learn more than one language and more than one type of alphabet it not the case. we write in arabic and in english and it didnt take me much time to learn english.
also dont compare your self with Arabs, we have problems like no other countries. and i think future will be better .
anyway Arabic countries are like 22 countries and they have different levels of modernity and development so its hard to compare.
also i have not visited Turky i know people who did and they say istanbol is similar to cairo.
anyway i live in UAE and i visited kuwait bahrain, saudi Arabia and oman those the only arabic countries i visited and i think UAE and kuwait are in good level. speacially uae we are growing economically very fast. buying 50% of Turk telecom as an example and making investments of 50 billion dolars around the world.
i think you better compare your self with countries had similar situation like the one you had and had similar resorces like the one u have.
i think japan is a good candidate for a comparison. and it is clear that you and your changes did not achieve anything compared to japan.
Japan was an industrial power ever since the west learned about the Russo-Japanese war. Since then Japan has maintained an industry on par with the west. Turkey has only industrialized since the formation of the republic and that was when the country was bankrupt. The growth was mainly in the stae monopolized infrastructure sector. It was an islolated economy for decades, only opening up to foreign investments and public trade since the 1980's. Yet in a span of twenty years, Turkey has been a leading manufacturer in food stuffs, home appliances (Arcelik and Bekoteknik are popular appliances in Europe), building construction in the middle east, Russia, and central asia. So , hopefully, Turkey will maintain and improve on its growing business sector and world exports.
No Murtaza, unfortunately that is right. Most Anatolians werent such important in Ottoman classification at all. Because it was "ark", it was unimportant, it was full of illiterate Turkmen villagers/nomads, and other Anatolians, Armenians, Kurds etc. So it was mainly a wealthy human resource for the military and unimportant jub stock.
Where are your grandparents from? That changes lots of things...
No Murtaza, unfortunately that is right. Most Anatolians werent such important in Ottoman classification at all. Because it was "ark", it was unimportant, it was full of illiterate Turkmen villagers/nomads, and other Anatolians, Armenians, Kurds etc. So it was mainly a wealthy human resource for the military and unimportant jub stock.
Where are your grandparents from? That changes lots of things...
They are from Trabzon, You are forgetting They were religious people. And They learn Arabic Alphabet for this reason too. Yes Our illiterate rate was low, But not that much low. After changin alphabet we have 100% illiterate.
Ataturk destroyed ottoman with politically, but he also tried it culturaly. True or false anohter bussiness. But I think He failed. Because of our greek, armenian and lovely friends. They give us reason for protect to Ottomans.Infact as you know, Ottomans are not only Turks but a lot race, But now They return(Culturally) completely as Turks.
I am talking about time just after the alphabet changing.
Infact Alphabet is not related with illiterate rate.
And I dont think latin one is more turkish than arabic one. He just tried to destroy ottoman culture. He tried to make us westerner. But It looks like nor us neither westerners accept this.
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Posted: 17-Jun-2005 at 13:22
Ok, history of Turkic writing.
- First alphabet is the Turkic Runic, Orkun. dates back from 6th century AD the earliest. No Turkic writing before this.
- Later followed by a number of others. Until Turkics adopted Islam and Arabic script. Before adopting Islam, most Turkics were barbarian nomads. There were some settled populations like the Uyghurs, but most were nomads. Nomads were usually better warriors than civilised poepples, but you can't be both nomadic and civilised- civilised doesn't mean 'nice', it means cultures who build and live in cities, not in tents.
- So when Transoxania joined the Islamic civilisation, Turkics in that region started to become civilised. Seljuks (the group related to Turks of Turkey) were barbarians who converted to Islam, invaded muslim lands and quickly adopted their civilisation. Iranian Seljuks were almost completely Persian in culture. Conversion to Islam was a very good thing for Turkics. otherwise they would have been like the Mongols today (btw, Turkish and Mongol are quite different languages, from different sub- families).
- A branch of Seljuks moved into Anatolia soon after. All nomads who moved in before them had been controlled, killed or assimilated by the Byzantines, but they survived, because they already had influence of Persian civilisation. Anatolian Seljuks combined Turkic nomad language, and a small amount of genetics and traditions (but not civilisation) with Persian, Byzantine and Arabic civilisations and local genetics. It is this mix, what creates the Turkish culture and makes a Turk what he is. Even though the Turkish nation state invents a glorious millenia long history for the Turks of Turkey, Turkish history starts with the Sultanate of Rum. Without this mix, there is no Turk, but something else, Azeri, Iranian, Arab, Bulgarian, whatever... It has been this way all through our history, and it is this way now. This is why the 'Turkcu' who thinks being Turk means having Turkic descent is not a Turk himself, he is an alien to the Turkish culture!
- Ottomans just expanded the Sultanate of Rum's mentality, and added Balkans to the mix. They developed Turkish versions of Arabic script. Literacy was very low in the Ottoman Empire, not because of the script, but because Ottomans were a backward state. Everyone everywhere on the planet had low literacy (like 1%) until the 19th century. Ottomans were, of course, more backward than other European states.
- Towards the end, nationalism came from the west and Turks had invented their nation. At this point they wanted to create a pure Turkish language, since the language is the only thing which makes them Turks. They asked for language reform, which included the script. Turkish intellectuals like Zia Gokalp did this, not Ataturk. Ataturk followed them.
- The empire collapsed and the nationalists have created a new country. They wanted to westernise, to create a nation out of the subjects of an empire. They did this to cut the 'nation' from its past, so their myths would propagate more easily. That's the main reason why they changed the script, Murtaza is right.
- On the other hand, it is true that Arabic script is not suited to Turkish at all, it is even worse than the Orkun script! Whereas the modern one easier to learn and is quite efficient. This probably helped the increase in literacy rates. But the literacy rates are factors of schooling. If you have schools for everyone, people will learn no matter how difficult it is. The Japanese use three alphabets, Kanji (the Chinese alphabet) with THOUSANDS of symbols, as well as two local alphabets with 100 symbols each, ALL TOGETHER. They have to know thousands of symbols to read the f**king newspaper. Yet literacy rate in Japan is 100% since the mid 20th century. Even though Turkish alphabet is infinitely simpler, Turkish literacy rate is between 85-90% today. So, while it was true that the Ottoman script needed a big reform, but change of script into latin was a bit extreme, in my opinion.
Yes they do, but it is a modified form of the Arabic script. I was told Uygurs can't read the Arabic form of the script just by knowing the Uygur form. By the way, welcome Uyghur Oghli. Hrlk Xerikh Trkistan!!
are you discussing how Turks converted to islam or competing to insult turkish nation and culture the worst thin some of you are turkish .first of all we didnt invent our nation or create a pure turkish language we just remembered that we were not arabs and being a muslim is not same thing as being an arab.my grand father died in yemen by an arab knife they open his stomach to find gold.muslim kills muslim it is umayyad mentality of arabs they tried to create a national religion like their cousins and becouse of that they were never trully accepts turks as muslims.when they realize they dont have a chance against crusaders they beg to the turks to protect them can you show me one arabic commander who fought against crusaders. anyway the name of the culture is islam it is the religion off all humans and the prophet H.Z MUHAMMET(SAV)came for all of us if you think you will have special place in heaven just becouse you are an arab or Turk you are wrong. by the way we never think building a hotel by kaabaover 400 years it is really nice for people with money to have suits with beautifull scene it is really for a good muslim to do i really appreciate arabs effort to make islam stronger.
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