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HulaguHan
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Topic: How did the Tuerks converted to Islam? Posted: 26-Jul-2005 at 20:18 |
Oh I was mistaken. Turks who formed Ghaznawid Sultanate was not forcibly converted by Persians. No harm was done to them. I checked my only source about it again. Grousset tells that after embracing islam, the Turkic clans immigrated to Persian Emirate and some served in this empire. But I know, Seljuks were brought to Bukhara in 985 and most of them were not muslim. Probably, that was a maneuvre for the last chance against the Qarakhanid Turks.
Anyway, Qarakhanid Turks crashed Samanid Emirate.
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HulaguHan
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Posted: 15-Jul-2005 at 10:09 |
Yes sure mate
I think yes, I should mention strongly Turks just upgraded them selves. IT is true Ottomans had many issues coming from the Hunnic days.
Persian, Chinese, Abbasid, Greek, Roman elements were just addition.
But I think it should be considered as flexibility and agilability, not assimilation.
We called Vezir, Sadrazam but we also considered Emperor as the shadow of god and the blood of emperor family to be sacred. This for instance Turkick tradition.
And our religion tradition also has many Turkic elements too.
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Posted: 15-Jul-2005 at 09:39 |
But Memo,
Ottoman governmental traditions were certainly heavily based on the past Seljuk ones and it still kept its number one Turkic element, the empire belonging to the family of padishah, khan, sultan whatever. Fatih changed that into the "brother killing" method but most of the government traditions still continued to keep their original Turkic elements, such as the systems of "sancakbeylik", "beylerbeyilik" etc.
As I said before, the three main elements in Ottoman governing traditions: Seljuks-Turkic methods, Abbasids-Islamic methods and Romans-Byzanthine methods. These formed the Ottoman Empire.
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HulaguHan
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Posted: 14-Jul-2005 at 21:53 |
Oguzoglu, lets say Sassanid-Abbasid-Islamic state organization.
Our state organization is a form of Sassanid, Ilber Ortayli starts his book dsecribing Ottoman State organization with Sassanid Shahdom Chapter.
Azimuth is in some sense right, greatest empire a Turk founded was Ottoman Empire. But yes, not Islam but the Persian-Islamic civilization helped us, togerther with the Chinese civilization. First Sogdian and chinese, than Persian and Islamic civilization added, than the Greco-Roman. LOL.
But not everytime Islam defined Ottoman Empire, it was also defined by traditions, like every empire did.
The civil way of life started before Islam, and accelerated with the Seljuks.
Though I can not agree with the Mongol issues , LOL. I do not say we are same 100% percent , hahahahahaha. And all those tribes are not the same with 100%.
Anyway, I have discussed them in our new forum. Hehehehehe... Quoted some from Urgunge Onon, that some tribes from Turkic group, Kereyids and Naimans spoke a language akin of Mongol tribe.
Onon, the one authority in Mongol history, names each tribe and people groups with their names, does not divide them into two groups.
Cengiz, keep it calm mate, Azimuth is our nice friend .
Take care dudes,
Memo
Edited by HulaguHan
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Posted: 14-Jul-2005 at 07:09 |
No it wasnt. Ottomans administration was inherited from three elements: Seljuks-Turkic traditions, Abbasids-Islamic traditions and Byzanthines-Roman traditions.
So Ottomans were a Turkish based Islamic Roman Empire. But Islam didnt shape their civilization. Even their architecure, their flag, their costumes and their believs (Naqshibendi-Bektashi) dont fit the general Islamic rules or traditions.
Islam was the image of Ottoman Empire, it looked like the purpose, but it was just the tool to reach the purpose. Istanbul during the Ottoman reign didnt have human views that we can witness in today's Tehran. Islam wasnt such a heavy ruler element for the rulers and elite society.
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Yiannis
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Posted: 14-Jul-2005 at 07:01 |
Originally posted by Oguzoglu
wasn't the Ottoman one of the strongest empires turks had????? |
In many terms it was. No doubt Islamic civilization helped us to improve ours by synthesizing it. But it didnt create a new one.
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Just as a sidenote, Muslim religion defined the Ottoman empire, as it provided it with moral ground for expansion (jihad), acted as the fiber on which the various elements of the empire were connected upon, as well as served as the basis for its administrational structure. So the cornerstone of the empire itself, was the Muslim religion.
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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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Guests
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Posted: 14-Jul-2005 at 06:52 |
Interesting, and where were the Turks in 3000BC? |
The origins of Turks are related with the Andronovo culture, the men who lived btw Tenri mountains and Altays in Central Asia 2000 years BC.
Still doing what they always do, being nomadic wonderers.. |
Nomads dont wonder, they proceed. But dreamers just wonder, wonder that they live in 2000 years past.
You guys are being modest again. I would say that Turkish history is at least 10000 years old. Some day they may even discover that Neanderthal were Turkic specking turanoids |
And homo-erectus was an Aryan, a Zoroastrian and a semi-God right?
wasn't the Ottoman one of the strongest empires turks had????? |
In many terms it was. No doubt Islamic civilization helped us to improve ours by synthesizing it. But it didnt create a new one.
Of course our origins are nonMongolian, like Greeks' is non-Roman. You mix the terms Mongolian and Mongoloid again. And Genghis Khan was a Mongol, not Turk, so not our ancestor.
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Phallanx
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Posted: 13-Jul-2005 at 13:51 |
Originally posted by Kenaney
]"you cant show the way to a blind man" |
Please do try to show us the 'light'.
Exactly how do the names presented support the 5000yr history claim, when they are all of a much earlier time???
Bilge Kagan lived 716 AD
Djengiz Kagan 1200 AD
Atilla The Hun 410 AD
I don't think we need to get into the fact, that some of you have
argued about some non-Mongolian origin, yet you do claim Mongols as
your ancestors
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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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Kenaney
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Posted: 13-Jul-2005 at 09:58 |
Chenghiz kagan, ill say you a Turkish "deghim" and you will understand the situation here: "Bir kr"e yol gsteremezsin" or in English "you cant show the way to a blind man" sorry if its incorrect (i mean translation)
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OUT OF LIMIT
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azimuth
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Posted: 13-Jul-2005 at 03:06 |
Originally posted by Cengiz Kagan
Originally posted by azimuth
Tyou should read your Turkish History again
Islam gave civilization which made Turkey through the Ottomans one of the strongest empires in the world
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This is absolute nonsense.
Atilla The Hun, Djengiz Kagan, Bilge Kagan etc. were all Turks and NON muslim and they built great empires.
Turkish history is 5000 years old. So before islam we were powerful also.
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i didnt say that turk didnt had empires before islam, and i didnt say truks were not powerfull before islam.
read carefull please,
and wasn't the Ottoman one of the strongest empires turks had?????
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strategos
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Posted: 13-Jul-2005 at 00:11 |
Originally posted by Phallanx
Interesting, and where were the Turks in 3000BC?
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Still doing what they always do, being nomadic wonderers..
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http://theforgotten.org/intro.html
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Miller
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Posted: 13-Jul-2005 at 00:08 |
Originally posted by Cengiz Kagan
This is absolute nonsense.
Atilla The Hun, Djengiz Kagan, Bilge Kagan etc. were all Turks and NON muslim and they built great empires.
Turkish history is 5000 years old. So before islam we were powerful also.
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You guys are being modest again. I would say that Turkish history is at least 10000 years old. Some day they may even discover that Neanderthal were Turkic specking turanoids
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Phallanx
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Posted: 12-Jul-2005 at 23:30 |
Originally posted by Kenaney
]Crusaders comes to anatolia for 2 reasons: 1 for richness of anatolia
2. for occuping Qudus, the holy place of the christianity. |
Never heard about the first reason you give but the second one is quite
accurate. It was Emperor Alexius that asked Pope Urban II for asistance
after losing Anatolia to the Turks. The Pope, took advantage of
Alexius' plead for help and "in the name of God" called the people to
take up arms and liberate the Holly lands.
No matter how you choose to see it, the obvious reason is one.
It was all about power.
Originally posted by Cengiz Kagan
Turkish history is 5000 years old. So before islam we were powerful also. |
Interesting, and where were the Turks in 3000BC?
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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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Cengiz Kagan
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Posted: 12-Jul-2005 at 21:10 |
Originally posted by azimuth
Tyou should read your Turkish History again
Islam gave civilization which made Turkey through the Ottomans one of the strongest empires in the world
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This is absolute nonsense.
Atilla The Hun, Djengiz Kagan, Bilge Kagan etc. were all Turks and NON muslim and they built great empires.
Turkish history is 5000 years old. So before islam we were powerful also.
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TANRI TURKU KORUSUN
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Guests
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Posted: 25-Jun-2005 at 17:41 |
Originally posted by HulaguHan
Turkish cities never rose a revolt like Aeabians. Only a few loosers like deli bas mehmet rose revolts, that' s it.
Arabs truly unified aginst us. Still they are hostile towards us. We built castles to protect them, they collapse them and build hotels.
Do you know why Prophet Muhammed' s sword is in Istanbul? Because we do not wanted that to be in the hands of British. THere was a complete revolt in Arabia, never forget it.
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Well said again Hulagu...
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aakhonba
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Posted: 25-Jun-2005 at 05:16 |
so what if the arabs revolted? big deal. Dont cry about what already happened.
Edited by aakhonba
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HulaguHan
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Posted: 24-Jun-2005 at 16:19 |
Turkish cities never rose a revolt like Aeabians. Only a few loosers like deli bas mehmet rose revolts, that' s it.
Arabs truly unified aginst us. Still they are hostile towards us. We built castles to protect them, they collapse them and build hotels.
Do you know why Prophet Muhammed' s sword is in Istanbul? Because we do not wanted that to be in the hands of British. THere was a complete revolt in Arabia, never forget it.
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Jagatai Khan
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Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 15:48 |
In first crusade,the Turks only defeated the first wave of the crusaders;the pillager crusader army commanded by Pierre L'Hermite.
After them,an outnumbering army with all the strong knights,dukes and barons of Europe came to Anatolia.They defeated the Seljuks and captured Nicosia,however Selchuk armies of Kilic Arslan I began a guerilla war on the plains and mountains of Anatolia;the crusader armies had so many casualties when they arrived southern Anatolia
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HulaguHan
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Posted: 20-Jun-2005 at 21:06 |
It was only Turks who fought against Crusaders especially in the beginning trials: Crusades 1-3.
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Murtaza
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Posted: 20-Jun-2005 at 13:36 |
did we stop them?
Not at First Crusade, and not third crusade. But well , we did realy good job. Noone said It was not Turk who fight against Crusaders.
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