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Alexander the Gay? |
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Bulldog 
Caliph 
Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
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 Topic: Alexander the Gay?Posted: 18-May-2006 at 09:29 |
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Sorry but the Ancient city states in that area cannot be called "Greek States" Everyone accepts Alexander the Great was a Macedonian, why would everyone lie yet only Greeks tell the truth? yes that is puzzling |
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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Istor the Macedonian
Knight 
Joined: 28-Apr-2005 Location: Greece Online Status: Offline Posts: 68 |
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Posted: 18-May-2006 at 13:38 |
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Macedonians, as well as southern Greeks were divided in several city states before Philip and after Alexander. Those leaders managed to unify all Greeks for one purpose. To punish Persians for the damages they had made to Greeks.
Those states hated and fought each other brutally and ceaselessly. But every four years, all Greeks, including Macedonians were there, in Olympia, to play those famous games, to read their books and to reacognize each other's Greekness. |
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Istor
Macedonian, therefore Greek! |
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dorian
Consul 
Joined: 20-May-2005 Location: Greece Online Status: Offline Posts: 370 |
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Posted: 18-May-2006 at 18:07 |
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1. Ancient Greece didn't exist? Maybe you have never read history. The fact that there was not a united Greek state leads you to this misconception?
2. Macedonia from the ancient times till the Balkan and World wars was a region which was inhabited by many tribes but the greek population was always more numerous. Macedonia (and Epirus) was always the northern border of hellenism which in some way kept the southern Greeks safe from the northern threats something that played a major role in the creation of the classic civilisation.
Edited by dorian - 18-May-2006 at 18:09 |
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"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
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Flipper
Arch Duke 
Joined: 23-Apr-2006 Location: Flipper HQ Online Status: Offline Posts: 1813 |
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Posted: 18-May-2006 at 18:37 |
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Everyone accepts that Leonidas was spartan, Demosthenis Athenian, Minoas Kretan and Aristoteles Macedonian. All those cities where Hellinic city states identified by language and culture not by the name of the state. Macedonian is the name of a Macedonian citizen not his ethnicity. The word derives from Macednon which means tall, so why should these people give themselves a Hellinic name if they were something else? A part of my family is Macedonian from way back and they do not class themselves as another ethnicity than Greek. Now, I really don't get how people in FYROM has anything to do with Macedonia (except from living in a part of it) when they speak bulgarian and can't read a single Macedonian inscription? Here's some inscriptions from a Macedonian tomb in Pieria  Xenokratis Pierionos is the name of the dead. Xenokratis of Pieria would that mean. In the bottom you can read Deykalos which is the deads claim to be descended of the family of Deukalion. Deykalion was one of the first Kings of Hellas. His son Hellin gave the name to the ethnicity called Hellinic (not Greek like people call Hellens nowadays). Don't know why Greeks would lie but there's way too much evidence that shows clearly that Macedonians were just another city state with people talking the same language and having the same ethnic consciousness. Even George Rawlinson the famous English historian that wrote about the history of Phoenicians and traslated Herodotus, says clearly that the Pelasgians were the first to inhabit Macedonia and called themselves Macedni. Why should an history exprert like Rawlinson lie? In case you don't know who the Pelasgians were...The Pelasgians together with the Cadmeians are the protohellinic tribes. As I mentioned before they were the first to give a name to the Hellinic ethnicity. And remember that the Dorians came from that area too...How would a Dorian tribe be Greek in Sparta and something else in Macedonia? How come that both the northern Dorians and the Southern Dorians have the Dorian dialect? So, you may guess that what "Everyone" that you mention confuse ethnicity of the Macedonians whith the Slavomacedonians that arrived in the 7th century A.D. |
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Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
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Flipper
Arch Duke
Joined: 23-Apr-2006 Location: Flipper HQ Online Status: Offline Posts: 1813 |
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Posted: 18-May-2006 at 18:52 |
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Cause Greece is not the name Hellenes use.. 1) We don not call our country Greece, we call it hellas 2) We don not call eachother Greeks but Hellenes 3) Greek means slave, a name given to Hellenes under the Ottoman rule. Hellens are not insulted when someone calls them Greeks but if you look at it in another angle it's like calling an african a negro. Conclusion: We've been calling ourselves Hellenes for thousands of years. In modern days, depending on our herritage we call ourselves for Minor Asian, Macedonian, Peloponisian, Kretan, Cypriots, Dodekanisioi, Chiotes, Epirotes, Kerkireoi, Eboites and the list goes on...Do you see a pattern in this? Obviously the world don't have a clue about how we classify ourserlves (or how we call ourselves). Athenians and Macedonians still fight each other about sports and dialect. You wouldn't understand that or hear about it if you didn't live here. For outsiders all these are "all greek" to them. Edited by Flipper - 18-May-2006 at 18:55 |
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Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
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Bulldog
Caliph
Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
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Posted: 19-May-2006 at 11:00 |
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Maybe you could answer this
From the Little Book of BIG Greek Lies BIG Greek Lie # 2 by Risto Stefov May 2005 In BIG Greek lie # 1 we showed that there were no "Ancient Greeks" since the word "Greek" was not coined until after the Roman conquests, approximately 600 years after the establishment of the City States and approximately 150 years after they were conquered by the Macedonians. The Koine language made its way into Macedonia a little before Philip II's time. Poorly worded and misspelled inscriptions written in Koine were found in the Macedonian capital which indicates that the language was not well understood and was just making its way there. In Macedonia, Koine was strictly the language of the educated and was used by the court administrators and the international merchants. By the time Koine arrived in Macedonia it was already the "lingua franca" of administration and commerce in the Eastern Mediterranean world. Koine in those days was like English is today. In Europe for example, counties have their own languages which they use to communicate at home, but internationally they use English to communicate with other countries. Alexander the Great was the first to take Koine out of the Mediterranean world to Asia, Africa and other worlds he conquered. The Koine language was so deeply rooted in the old Macedonian empires that even after they were conquered by the Romans it continued to flourish. Koine was spoken by Roman intellectual even in Rome. Almost all ancient literary works were written in Koine Let's not forget that throughout the Macedonian and Roman periods Koine, in spite of its popularity with the educated and elite, it remained a language of Administration and commerce. Koine was never a language of the common people.............................. There's 15 more I don't know where to start.
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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dorian
Consul
Joined: 20-May-2005 Location: Greece Online Status: Offline Posts: 370 |
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Posted: 19-May-2006 at 11:14 |
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Dude, what are you talking about? "Greek" comes from "Graekos" which is the name of an ancient greek tribe in Epirus. This name was used widely until the 19th century name by the Greeks. What is this about "slaves"?
That is true and I want to add something. In modern days there is a cruel fight between Macedonians and Athenians (representing southern Greece) about sports and their teams, about their dialects (for Athenians the macedonian dialects sound strange and vice-versa), their way of living etc, things that remind us the ancient fight between athenians and macedonians. Edited by dorian - 19-May-2006 at 11:18 |
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"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
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dorian
Consul
Joined: 20-May-2005 Location: Greece Online Status: Offline Posts: 370 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 19-May-2006 at 11:36 |
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Bulldog,
what do you want to prove? That there were not ancient Greeks because they didn't use the name "Greeks" for themselves? They formed the greek nation and they knew that. Read ancient greek historians please!!!! That's enough with these "historians" who have never read anything of the ancient texts.
About the koine language,you said that it wasn't exclusively greek...what do you mean? Where is the prooves in the text of...Risto Stefov (one of the advocates of the "modern macedonian nation").
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"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
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Flipper
Arch Duke
Joined: 23-Apr-2006 Location: Flipper HQ Online Status: Offline Posts: 1813 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 19-May-2006 at 12:37 |
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Ok, as Dorian said you post your own nationalist historian as proof? Are you kidding us? Do you try to say that he's a more reliable source compared to Rawlinson and J. G. Droysen? If I post information from a Greek scientology site would anyone here take my post as a serious post? Can you please post evidence widely accepted by the international history forum? But since I now understand your origin you come from a country where they teach you that Greeks were black. Do I need to say anything more? People take a look on this link and make conclusion about the country that claims to be the real Macedonians: http://macedoniancivilization.blog.com.mk/node/1301 It's hilarious... |
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Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
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Istor the Macedonian
Knight
Joined: 28-Apr-2005 Location: Greece Online Status: Offline Posts: 68 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 19-May-2006 at 13:39 |
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Bulldog,
Risto is the worst source about Greeks including Macedonians: http://www.network54.com/Forum/407998/message/1115756638 Edited by Istor the Macedonian - 19-May-2006 at 13:43 |
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Istor
Macedonian, therefore Greek! |
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Guests
Guest 
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Posted: 19-May-2006 at 13:52 |
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Looks to me someone tries to build up an avowedly poor tasted case and starts flame wars with greeks. I suggest you mates not to fall so easily into but contact the moderation body to take some action. @Bulldog your link turns out to be a petty nationalistic source with no credibilidity. I can’t seem to get over the notion that your persistence to build up a paradoxical case has a well hiden agenda inside. I thought anyhow the topic spoke of Alexander's sexuality and not the imaginary theories of the city states origins.
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akritas
Chieftain 
Hegemom Joined: 17-Sep-2005 Location: Greek Macedonia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1460 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 19-May-2006 at 14:20 |
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You are correct Malfuri. Risto Stefov or Aristo Stefou is one from the biggest nationalistic Slavmacedonians. I have already answer for the lie #2 that you can read in this thread
One quote from my article is
As I said Mr Stefov the Grammar, Syntaxis, 75% of the modern Greek vocabulary use the ancient Greek language . Of course you forget to say that thinks in your article.
And Last your given Mr Stefov table with the Greek words is not accurate. And you speaking and read it the Hellenic language very well We say alogo but also ippodromia (horse racing), we say kota but also ornithotrofio(chicken farm), we say gaidaros but also peri onou skias (proverb, = for a donkeys shadow = for unimportant things), we say psomi but we say artopoieio or artopoleio (=bakery). We say aiga > aigidion > gida. (Aigai, first known capital of Macedonia, is named after this word.) The words katsiki and gaidaros have foreign origins. Probably turkish |
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Digenis
Colonel 
suspended Joined: 22-Nov-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 694 |
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Posted: 20-May-2006 at 10:11 |
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Well..i am a bit tired of all this..and a bit disapointed of myself that i cannot just ignore such funny things-i hope in a while i ll be able to remain silent  Mr Risto StefOV...ok we need some Mr Zlatko or Mr.Stoiko --OV to teach history in here... Plz present some serious and reliable historians-This guy obviously has nothing to do with history at all. He is obviously confused.
If he could speak and read in Greek(Attic dialect,Koine,Modern) he would be able to see that the Greeks were using "Hellen" to identify themselves at that era. Aristotle mantions that the name" Graikoi "is older than "Hellenes".
Koine was a form of Greek language-probably the guy here is confused:he will try to prove that koine was not used only by Greeks.(but who says the opposite ?
IGNORANCE.
There were found inscriptions ONLY in Greek. In Attic and (after 3nd cent BC)Koene. And few inMacedonian Dialect-The Greek Dialect of the people there. A curse text was found in Pella-its a greek language,very close to aeolian dialect. But in any case the Macedonians (as All Greeks) adopted the evolution of Attic-the Koeni sooner or later.So in 600 AD ,when the first Slav settlers started to appear (1100 years after the adoption of Attic,900 years after the development of Greek Koeni), these people were speaking the same Greek language with All the other Greeks.
Well thats the funniest of all .In fact Koine was 100% the common people's language. It was a simplified form of Attic dialect,as i mentioned,with some elements of other dialects. The scholars prefered the ancient Attic. Koine is the language in which the 4 gospels are written-a language almost similar to modern Greek,since modern is the evolution of it!! So,the native Greeks of Macedonia-as 3 of my grandparents where -were still speaking Koini for the last 2.300 years ,my friend. Good Night. -to the Point: Who the ---- cares,about with whom was Alexander ----- in his ----- bed!!? Edited by Digenis - 20-May-2006 at 10:13 |
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Guests
Guest
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Posted: 24-May-2006 at 18:07 |
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Edited by Komnenos for its extreme homophobic content. AE's code of conduct ;
Edited by Komnenos - 24-May-2006 at 18:59 |
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akritas
Chieftain
Hegemom Joined: 17-Sep-2005 Location: Greek Macedonia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1460 |
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Posted: 06-Jun-2006 at 14:20 |
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Πλούταρχος, "Περί Αλεξάνδρου Τύχης ή Αρετής", Αρετής Λόγος Α' 12: Plutarch, Alexander's Merits,Speech A,12 [Alexandros, when Filoxenos wrote to him, the consul (governor) of the coast(beach), that it exists in Ionia a young person (pajs) where, similar in his beauty never born before, and asked to was informed with letter, if wanted to send to him, Alexandros wrote answering strictly (bitterly): " Villain from all the persons, you learned that I have been mixed never with such thinks, in order to adulate me with such type vicarious pleasures ?]. Edited by akritas - 06-Jun-2006 at 14:22 |
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Polish Rob
Immortal Guard 
Joined: 02-Mar-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
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Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 08:32 |
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Alexanders time period was Hellenistic Greek. Its still in the realm of ancient history, so it can be referred to as Ancient Greek.
Greek's believed in love, and their boundaries did not scope the realm of which sex you were. Spartan soldiers were known to have relationships amongst each other to make them stronger warriors. Older Greek males were encouraged to have relationships with younger males. If you want to take the route of bisexuality, you have to realize most males in Greek culture were bisexual. |
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apro282
Immortal Guard
Joined: 07-Jul-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
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Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 19:34 |
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That actually is totally false and not proven. Aristotles dictum still stands: He who asserts must also prove. When you make a claim, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that claim is to the fullest as being correct/right/true and this suppose claim has never been proven. Fox remarks on the subject: "Later gossip presumed that Bagoas was Alexanders lover. This is uncertain."[xi] Even the lesbian writer Mary Renault, the patron saint of all those who seek to prove Alexanders bisexuality, clearly acknowledges, "No historian states plainly whether they were physical lovers."[xii] Like she didn't have a personal agenda when she wrote her fictional work about Alexander being gay/bi/or whatever.
 The only one to suggested anything of the sort was Quintus Curtius Rufus, the only Roman historian who's works survived about Alexander and writes from the 1st century AD, but his source of information is considered "bad" by many legit historians given that his "source" was Cleitarchus, which contains many serious errors in itself. Curtius work shows ignorance of geography, chronology and technical military knowledge, he focuses mostly on Alexander's supposed "psychosis" that when further scrutinized one can see how very flawed in errors even that part in Curtius work is ...which is why he as a "source" is considered "bad". Alexander's relationship towards Bagoas being anything "romantic" is not historical fact but based on Curtius' "bad" material. Curtius is also the only person to describe Bagoas as "eromenos" (beloved) towards Alexander, a term used for a younger male lover. From Curtius' work later writers such as the 20th century writer Mary Renault, who by the way was a lesbian writer and not even trained in classicist, took that faulty info and put her own spin to them to create such "classics" as "The Persian Boy", who some idiots out there, this is not directed to you btw, call her fictional works as "historical".
Plus lets not forget that Alexander was influenced a lot by his teacher, Aristotle, and anyone who has read Aristotle's ideas on same sex love will know that he believed such acts were deformed conditions brought about either by natural disorder or by habit. Aristotle's rants against such acts would more then likely be considered hate speech today. I also would like for someone to answer me: in a culture that was supposedly so openly gay/bisexual/pedestric why is it that so little literature has been found on such activities, suggesting that such practices were not as widely accepted as some modern "scholars" would like us to think.
The "probably bisexual" is interesting and reflects what is often the case in a society based on assumptions fed by a popular culture that thrives on innuendo and does not research the actual sources and facts for him/herself but depends on sixth sources to feed him/her the info....and yes I am talking about modern society here.
Oh and to the guy who is trying to steal Greek history again: you've got no case, give it up. Alexander, Macedonia and Macedonians have always been Hellenes.
 That said, I'd like to say that I've been reading the forums for a while now and quite enjoyed them. Guess this will be my first post on here. Hope I can contribute some interesting material as the material I have been reading on here so far.
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bg_turk
Sultan 
Joined: 28-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2347 |
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Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 20:17 |
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welcome apro282
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Semis of Arierep
Immortal Guard
Joined: 13-May-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
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Posted: 08-Jul-2006 at 17:40 |
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I bet that Alexander liked from both...the chronicals say that and in ancient greece and ancient civilizations this is a thing well accepted and a thibg that show the status of the persons
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Perseas
General 
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 14-Jan-2005 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 781 |
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Posted: 10-Jul-2006 at 06:17 |
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It is likely that you have never read any ancient source about Alexander therefore its not suprising your assertions are that ignorant.
[Justin 9.10]
[Plutarch, Alexander]
[Arrian 8.4.4- 8.4.8]
Note here we arent talking the Barsine, widow of Memnon. But Barsine, elsewhere found as Stateira.
[Plutarch, Eumenes]
[Justin, Book 12, part 3]
[Diodorus Sic. XVII.77.5]
[Aelian - Varia Historia, 12.34>
[Pliny, The Natural History]
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A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.
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