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    Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 15:16
 The Name SLAV*

B. Philip Lozinski (Essays in Russian History, Archon Books, 1964)


B. PHILIP LOZINSKI, Assistant Professor of History at the University of Montreal, studied with Professor Vernadsky as a graduate student at Yale University from 1947 through 1951. He received his Ph.D. in the History of Art there in 1958. Earlier study was at the University of Warsaw and the University of Grenoble. In 1949 he received the M.A. degree from Yale University. He taught History of Art at Connecticut College in the summer of 1949, at Yale during the academic year 1960-61, and at the University of British Columbia in the summer of 1961. From 1947 through 1949 he was a Research Assistant at the Yale Art Gallery and from 1957 through 1959 an Associate in Research in History at Yale. His fields of specialization are Medieval, Iranian, and Slavic Art. His publications include The Original Homeland of the Parthians (The Hague, 1959) and numerous articles and book reviews in scholarly journals.





THE ORIGIN of the name Slav, Protoslavic Slovenin, has never been entirely satisfactorily explained. [1] All the bibliography pertaining to the problem was published by Vasmer, Otrebski and Rudnickyj, [2] and need not be repeated. The three main suggestions derive the name of the Slavs from the following: from Slavic slovo, meaning "word," or slava, meaning "glory," and from Latin sclavus, "slave." Etymological, semantic and historical inconsistencies exist for each of these explanations. Many attempts have been made to adjust one or the other of the elements involved. For the details one may refer to the above mentioned publications.
In the present paper I shall suggest another explanation, not too far removed from the solutions proposed hitherto, but based on evidence other than philological considerations alone. The basis for deciphering the meaning of any proper name should be looked for in its social importance in the group using it, in the possible traditions and uses of the name, and above all in the semantics and the cultural concepts of the time rather than of our own period.

Let us first examine the possible shortcomings of various extant explanations of the meaning of the name Slav.

The derivation of this name from the word slovo meaning "word" is illogical. A community of language could hardly be indicated by the noun "word." For such a designation one would rather expect a word for "language," or "speech" or any equivalent thereof. The only known use of "word" as a symbolic designation refers to the "word" as Logos, or to the Book. In such a case the name Slav would have religious connotations. The term "word," as Logos, would be rather an exalted name for a people who, to our knowledge, never had any crusading religious drives, nor left any trace of a revealed religion in their traditions, even if their religion was monotheistic. [3] We may, however, retain the idea that religious connotations were, perhaps, implicit in the name.

The use of such a term as slava, "glory," for the proper name of a population is entirely without parallel. It might conceivably have been part of a dynastic title, but scarcely that of a group of nations, whose written history does not contain sufficient evidence for such a claim.

As to the identification with the Latin sclavus, which in later Medieval times seems to have been connected with the name of the Slavs, [4] the difficulty is of a historical nature. No Roman sources contain the name "Slav" in any form. It appears first in sixth-century Byzantine sources, written in Greek, as "Sklavini." The Byzantines, historically, were the first to come in contact with the migrating Slavs, recording their existence and their name. The name was not given to them by the Greeks. The Byzantine historians customarily recorded the foreign name of a population group as the one used by the group itself, or as it was passed on by an intermediary. We must remember that certain Slavic groups retained the designation "Slav" as their proper name. These are the West Slavic populations of the Slovaks and Slovenes, and the Eastern Slovieni of Novgorod. We may consider this sufficient proof that: the name was not borrowed by the Slavs from Latin through Byzantine Greeks but must have been their own. It is worth noting, however, that the name of the Slavs in Arabic, Saqlaba, seems to suggest Latin etymology from "sclavus." There is also no historical evidence for the possibility that the Arabs borrowed the name from the Latin-speaking populations, or from the Byzantines. Arabic records concerning the Slavs were, if not earlier, much more ample and more accurate [5] than those of the Byzantine historians, who were many months of travel distant from the Slavs according to the earliest Byzantine reports. [6] The Arabs, who were in direct touch with the Slavs, could hardly have borrowed the name from the Byzantines. It is even less likely that they took it from the Latin-speaking populations with whom they had for long no direct contact as far as we know. The form of the name used by the Arabs, and by the Byzantines, remains inexplicable. Only further studies may establish the proper sequence, by tracing the linguistic groups through which the name of the Slavs passed to emerge in Greek as Sklavini, and in Arabic as Saqlaba. As a working hypothesis I might suggest that both forms are derived from the same source. To derive one from the other without additional supporting evidence would be premature, but we may well suppose a common origin for both. It is possible that we have two names of different origins applied to the same people: Slavs (Slovenin") and Saqlaba. The Slavs would have been the name used by the people themselves. The Saklaba, which is not an Arabic word [7], does not derive from Slav or any other form thereof. More probably it is a name connected with some region, later used to designate the people who came to this area. [8] just as the name Germani, originally Celtic, was applied to Teutonic populations when they took over the same territory. [9]

The proper name of the Slavs must have been derived from a Slavic word, designating their most important characteristic and distinguishing them from any other population group. It could not have been the name of the language, usually derived from the proper name of a population. The geographical [10 derivation seems tenuous, as such place names, although extant, are of little importance. Moreover place names, when not topographical descriptions, derive almost invariably from names of peoples, not vice-versa. This is especially true for the first millenium A.D. as it is attested by Stephanus Byzantinus. [11] The name of the Slavs might have been taken from the name of a clan or a tribe, but here again we have no historical evidence that such a clan or tribe ruled the whole Slavic branch of nations at any time. [12] In any case their name must have had some specific meaning before it became that of a family, clan or tribe. We should look, then, for the meaning of the name "Slav" in their language.

The name of the Slavs, according to recent linguistic studies, derives from the Indo-European root slov-, with a short vowel o. The Proto-slavic form would, accordingly, have been Slovenin". The East Slavic variation with a instead of o would, then, be a later development, possibly connected with the Russian pronunciation of unstressed o as a, the so-called akanie. This is considered to have occurred in the XII-XIII century, although Vaillant [13] claimed that it was extant already in the Common Slavic. Such variety of opinions proves that not. all the linguistic definitions may claim general support, and that all the reconstructions are hypothetical and subject to change. They are far from being definite solutions, as our knowledge of the early stages of the Slavic language is not satisfactory. Thus in the preliterary period the form with a might have been current in the East Slavic, which at the time stood Very close to the West Slavic.

Slav Slovenin" is certainly a Slavic name and it came to other languages from Slavic. The Western Europeans first encountered the Western Slavs, supposedly using the form with o. And yet all the Western Europeans since the tenth century used the form with a. As we know this a may have represented as well the Slavic long a as the short o. The first variation seems more probable, as it may have been supported by the compound propoer names, such as Polish Boguslaw and Wladyslaw, or Russian Sviatoslav, Iaroslav, etc. [13a], where the element slav" presents us with a vowel a not o, both in Eastern and Western Slavic.

I should like to present an alternate hypothesis, that the root of the original designation of the Slavs was rather slav than slov-, and to propose a different interpretation of the meaning of the name in terms of its semantic and historic raison d'etre.

What were the strongest characteristics of an early society? Not the nationality, as this modern concept did not exist in early societies; not the language, as the name of the language would have been derived from the name of the group, not vice-versa. The strongest were those of religion which distinguished the group from all others, providing the foundation of the whole cultural entity.

In the first millenium A.D. the Christians of Europe were the counterpart of the Mohammedans and the Buddhists of Asia; Jews formed a group in terms of their religion not their speech, or their social or "national" affinities. Other designations of peoples or states were primarily those of the names of dynasties or of particular rulers. The pagans, in turn, had their own definition of populations of other religions, and, naturally, a name for their co-believers. Religious interests were indeed of primary concern throughout the period.

The name of the Slavs first emerged during the second part of the first millennium A.D. The name may have had religious connotations, meaning, or value. The tradition of a religious designation of people has survived among the Slavs until the present. In Eastern Poland and Western Russia only the educated distinguished themselves or others according to their national or linguistic affiliations. In popular usage the national names of Poles, White Russian, or Ukrainians are nonexistent. "National" differences were, and still are, expressed in terms of religion: Catholic meaning Polish, and orthodox, pravoslavny, used as the equivalent of Russian, Ukrainian, Small Russian, or White Russian.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 15:20
   The term prawoslawny, pravoslavny, seems to offer a key to the name "Slav." It is composed of two words: prawo, meaning "law," "right," and "right side," and slawny from the root slav-, "glorify" in the sense of "worshipping." Whether prawoslawny, pravoslavny means right, proper, or law-worshipping, is not the question. We are concenrned only with the name Slav which I propose was derived from the early self-designation of the Slavs as "worshippers."

The Slavs were probably comparatively secluded from outside influences, at least in the early period during which they were forming a unified linguistic group and social organization very likely based on one religion. Thus anyone belonging to their group was a "worshipper," others were "pagans," whatever word was used for this purpose. This attitude is normal in any religious group, and was no doubt exceedingly strong in earlier times. Cuius regio eius religio any one belonging to, or joining, a linguistic, social, and political entity automatically had to become a worshipper of the god or gods of the group.

The term pravo-slavny is a compound, and as all compounds in Slavic a direct translation from a foreign language, in this case from Greek. In Greek orthodoxos the doxa retained the connotations of "worship," or "belief," "faith," especially in Medieval Greek. [14] Thus the meaning of the Slavic component at the time of the translation must have been similarly "worship," "worshipping." And indeed slav- had this particular meaning. Slav'n" is "pertaining to worship" with an adjective-forming suffix; it has both a passive and an active meaning, although at present only the former is used. The meaning of "Slav" would be, then, a "worshipper," "one who glorifies God." In the compound, translated from the Greek, the "worshipper" became the "right worshipper," or the rightfully worshipping. The compound translation from the Greek might have been used to distinguish the Christians, or the proper Christian worshippers, from the people called Slavs "worshippers," who were pagans, or, according to many Arabic historians, sectarian Christians even before the official conversion, in particular Jacobites, that is heretical, not rightful worshippers. [15]

The word used in this sense in the eighteenth century is recorded by Strahlenberg, [16] who calls "Weynachts Masquerade" slavenie. The worshipping function of Christmas popular rituals is too well known to require elaboration, and the term denotes this function (Deistvie po glag. slaviti [17]) .

This meaning of the name "Slav" would be an exact counterpart of the general usage of the second part of the first millenium A.D. from Europe to China. Manichaeans, Nestorians, Buddhists, Fire Worshippers, Mohammedans, Saracens, Pagans, Bogumils, and finally Christians are temrs prevailing in the sources of the time, especially in what we would call international relationships, in distinguishing the background, often the origins of individuals or large groups of populations.

To all these religious designations of populations I propose that the name of the Slavs, meaning worshippers, be added.

The translation of the name "Slav" as "worshipper" would clarify the proper names of the Slavs containing this element. The so-called topographic explanation of the name "Slav" would also fit into the above explanation. Slavenin" would designate a man originating in the country of "worshippers," for the members of this religion the only true one. Even today a pagan of whatever denomination is not a worshipper in the eyes of the members of different religious groups.

The religious origin of the group name was of primary importance for the Slavic society, as is evidenced by another term designating a social group of the Slavs. The Russian word for peasant is krestianin, formed in the same way as Russian Slavianin, Polish Slowianin, and in simple translation meaning Christian. Following the Arabic historians and the evidence of archaeology I have suggested elsewhere [18] that the Slavs were sectarian Christians before the official Christianization of the upper social level of society which was, in all probability, of a different stock. The Slavs, according to Oriental historians, were Jacobites (Monophysites), [19] a sect exiled to the East from Byzantium in the sixth century. [2 Strong traces of monophysitism are still preserved in Russian religious life. [21] The Byzantine empire in the tenth century tried hard to eradicate this heresy at home, and no doubt directed similar persecutions in Russia. This is exemplified by the strife for the Metropolitan see of Kiev, occupied by a monophysite bishop before the final establishment of an orthodox metropolitan in 1037 (or 1054?) [22] The Russian word for "peasant" suggests that the new masters of the Kievan Rus, converted to orthodoxy, changed the social aspect of the populations they ruled. The old sectarian Christians, presumably the Polianie, Drevichanie, Viatyche, Radymiche, etc., were pushed to the bottom of the social scale, or driven out to the West, as their names appear later in Poland with all the accompanying place names of each group. [23] The krestianin who remained in Russia became a peasant on the land which he had held previously as his own. In an early medieval population social distinctions were of much more importance than national ones. In this case the designation of a creed marked the distinction of a social class. This is an additional indication that the religious definition contained in the root slav- was of primary significance in this society which used religious terms for names of population groups, whether as that of a cultural entity Slavs or as that of a social class krestianin.

The preceding explanation of the name of the Slavs may have a specific bearing on early Slavic history. Such a religious derivation of a proper name was suggested recently by Professor Vernadsky for the Alans:

"The Alans were often referred to under another name, that of As (Asii). It seems probable that the Alans and the Asii had been originally two separate tribes, or clans, but that later they merged together. In my opinion the name Asii is of religious origin. In Avestan the stem yaz expresses the notion of 'worship'. Yazata means 'who must be worshipped,' hence 'deity', 'divine power' (in Ossetian izaed means 'angel', 'spirit'). A demon named Az is occasionally mentioned in the Avesta. In Manichaean texts Az is called 'the evil mother of all demons' and also a 'death demon'. For the Minichaeans, naturally, former deities became evil spirits." [24]

The similar formation of the name of the "As" (Alans) and the "Slavs" in all probability reflects the close cultural relationships of these populations. Professor Vernadsky [25] was the first, in modern times, to suggest that the Slavs had direct Iranian antecedents. The derivation of both names from religious designations, as suggested above, may be considered as additional evidence, especially as most of the Slavic gods bear purely Iranian, or Indian, names. [26] One of the Slavic groups, the Poles, called themselves Sarmatians; this name was recorded very early in Western Medieval chronicles [27], which lends credence to the traditions recorded in Polish chronicles edited at the waning of the Middle Ages, according to which they were in touch with the Iranians. [28] In Antiquity the Sarmatians, as is well known, were the Alans. [29] The meaning of the name "Sarmata" in Iranian is the "council." [3 It refers not to the nationality or language, but to the social organization of the Alans, ruled by a supreme council, appointing the king. [31] The role of the council in early Slavic history is well known, especially among the Western Slavs. Thus the social, or political, organization of the Iranian Alans and Polish Slavs offers evidence of their affiliation. Both groups used the Iranian word for "council" derived from the type of their ruling body. They must have been in very close proximity to affect such borrowings and exchange of influences. These were of such important nature, defining the whole structure of the society, that we are obliged to start thinking in terms of direct intermingling of population groups.

The explanation of the name of the Slavs as "worshippers" fits the cultural and sociological pattern of early Slavic history. Moreover it is in perfect agreement with certain significant aspects of their history, and enlarges the scope of our approach to the problem of Slavic history and origins. It reaffirms the Asiatic connection of the Slavs, a new trend emerging in research, which should be investigated.

The work of Professor Vernadsky prepared the ground for this kind of approach. Early Slavic history was not as static as the nineteenth-century historians believed. The dynamic forces in evidence during the first millennium A.D. brought about great changes, recorded by Oriental historians, and preserved in popular traditions. The great migrations which took place on a continental scale, bringing the Slavs into the Iranian orbit and producing close affiliations in the field of religion, must have been followed by subsequent moves which finally brought such Iranian elements to the present Slavic territories, at the same time putting the Slavs in the European historical horizons.

The Name SLAV, by B. Philip Lozinski
pp.19-30 in Essays in Russian History, A collection dedicated to George Vernadsky

Edited by Alan D. Ferguson and Alfred Levin
Archon Books, Hamden, Connecticut 1964
1964, The Shoe String Press, Inc.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 15:58
I'm much more satisfied "a priori" with the derivation from slovo = word. If the language was called by local terms, then why not use a more generic term for the language family, such as word. Also there's no reference to Slavs being particularly religious, just clans and tribes with a low profile. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 16:29
 You couldn't be more wrong about there religious side,here i find something:
function Greek mythology Indian mythology Scandin. mythology Slav mythology Balt mythology Irish mythology
1 sky Ouranes

Zeus

Varuna

Dyaus

Tyr Svarog Dievas Nuadha

(Teutat)

2 thunder Zeus Parjanya

Indra

Thor Perun Perkunas (Taranis)
3 war Ares Skanda

Indra

Tyr

Odin

Perun Perkunas Nuadha

Morrighan

4 kingship Zeus Indra Odin Herovit

Perun

Dievas

Perkunas

Nuadha

Lugh

5 earth Gaia Prthivi Erd Mokos Zemes- mate Danu

Brigit

6 fate Moirae   Nornir

Valkyrie

Mokos Laima,

Dekla,

Karta

triad of Mother-Goddesses
7 goddess of love Aphrodite Laksmi Freyja Lada Laima Aine
8 matrimon Hera Savitri Frigg Lada Laima  
9 natural power Dionysus Rudra

Shiva

Freyr Herovit Vels

(Potrimpo)

(Cernunnos-Hes)

Dahghda

10 forest,

animals

Pan Pusan

Rudra

  Veles (Puskaits) (Cernunnos)
11 underworld Hades Yama

Varuna

Odin

Hel

Veles Vels

(Patollo)

Dahghda

Manannan

12 psychopomp Hermes Yama Odin   Sovius  
13 mystery knowledge Hermes Visvakarman Odin Veles Vels Lugh

Oghma

14 sea Poseidon Varuna Eagor

Njord

  (Autrimps) Manannan
15 light and

harmony

Apollo Mitra

Bhaga

Vishnu

Balder Dazhbog   Mac Ok

(Mapon)

16 fire Hesta Agni Loki? Svarogich Gabie  
17 wind Boreas Vayu Njord Stribog Vejapats  
18 moon   Soma Mani   Meness  
19 sun Helios Surya Sol Hors Saule (Belenus)
20 dawn Eos Ussas   Usen Ausrine (Epona)?
21 twins Dioscuri Asvinau     Sons of Dievas  
22 god of love Eros Kama   Lel   Mac Ok
23crafts-manship Hephaistos

cyclops

Tvastar dwarfs Kozma

Demyan

Kalvaitis Goibhniu
24 medicine Asclepius Dhanvantari     (Aushauts) Dian- Cecht


 Serb even before christanty had "Slava" special family tradition and they are the only Slavs which still celebrate,but in interaction with christanity.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 16:37
Slavs are indigenous in the Balkans

Author: Mario Alinei

Source: Origini delle lingue d'Europa, Vol. I: La teoria



Here are some excerpts of Dr. Mario Alinei's study concerning the Slavic populations in the Balkans. It is congruent with Dr.Florin Curta's

conclusions about the invention of the "arrival of the Slavs in the Balkans".

"I have to commence by clearing away one of the most absurd consequences of the traditional chronology, namely, that of the 'arrival' of the

Slavs into the immense area in which they now live. The only logical conclusion can be that the southern branch of the Slavs is the oldest

and that from it developed the Slavic western and eastern branches in a differing manner and perhaps at different times."

"Today only a minority of experts support the theory of a late migration for the Slavs... because none of the variant versions of such late

settlement answers the question of what crucial factor could possibly have enabled the Slavs to have left their Bronze-Age firesides to

become the dominant peoples of Europe. The southwestern portion of the Slavs had always bordered on the Italic people in Dalmatia, as well as

in the areas of the eastern Alps and in the Po lowlands."

"The surmised 'Slavic migration' is full of inconsistencies. There is no 'northern Slavic language', it is rather only a variant of the

southern Slavic... The first metallurgic cultures in the Balkans are Slavic... and connected with Anatolia... Slavic presence in the

territory, nearly identical to the one occupied by them today, exists ever since the Stone Age... The Slavs have (together with the Greeks

and other Balkan peoples developed agriculture... agriculturally mixed economy, typically European, which later enabled the birth of the

Greek, Etruscan, and Latin urbanism. Germanic peoples adopted agriculture from the Slavs... The Balkans is one of the rare regions in which a

real and true settlement of human groups coming from Anatolia is proven...].

REFERENCES
Mario Alinei, Origini delle lingue d'Europa, Vol. I: La teoria della continuitଠIl Mulino, Bologna, 1996;

Vol. II: La continuitࠤelle principali aree etnolinguistiche dal Mesolitico all?etࠤel Ferro, Il Mulino, Bologna, 2000.

BIOGRAPHY

Mario Alinei is Professor Emeritus at the University of Utrecht, where he taught from 1959 to 1987.

Founder and editor of "Quaderni di semantica" review.

He is president of "Atlas Linguarum Europae".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 17:59

According of Mario Alinei the great Neolithic cultural complex of the Balkans, with all its subsequent developments, is usually subdivided in three main groups (see e.g. Lichardus and Lichardus 1985, 242, 253, 311 ff.), which can be identified, with greater or lesser ease, with as many linguistic groups:

(1) The Thessalian and Southern Macedonian culture of Proto-Sesklo, followed by Sesklo and Dimini, identifiable with the Greek group;

(2) The Painted Ware cultures of Anzabegovo-Vrnik in Northern Macedonia, Starchevo in Serbia, Krs/Crish in Hungary and Romania, and Karanovo I in Bulgaria; followed later by Vincha (Serbia, Hungary and Romania), Veselinovo (Bulgaria), Dudeshti e Boian (Romania), identifiable with Southern Slavic;

(3) The Albanian Painted Ware cultures of Vashtemi-Podgornie e Kolsh, followed by those of Chakran and the more recent Maliq, to the last of which Albanian prehistorians themselves attribute the origins of Illyrian.

Which would of course reflect the original frontiers between Greeks, Slavs and Illyrians. More over, as we shall see shortly, the original homogeneity of this Neolithic Balkanic block can also explain the formation of the so called Balkanic Sprachbund, characterized by a number of peculiar  Greek, Albanian, Southern Slavic and Rumanian isoglosses, until now without any satisfactory explanation

 

http://www.continuitas.com/interdisciplinary.pdf

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 18:35
The historian from Slavonia Matija Petar Katancic wrote about the Serb name in the western Balkans  :

Nostris profecto Illyriis adeo id familiare est us Srblos passim se compellent, non Serviam incolentes modo, sed universum pene Illyricum, ac Daciam quoque, in primis qui Graecam sequuntur ecclesiam, qui per hoc maxime se ab ceteris distingui putant quod Srbli, Srblyani nuncupantur.

        It is very usual that our Illyrians call themselves Srblos, not only those who live in Serbia, but [those who live in] all Illyria and even Dacia, particularly those who follow the Greek law [the Orthodox]. They show that they distinguish themselves the most when they call themselves Srbli, Srbljyani.

(M.P.Katancsics. De Istro ciusque adcolis.1798).

- A Hungarian anonymus author states in 1790  :

        Serbii i Bosnenses, quos Hungari Rascianos a Rasciae Regno appelant, nunquam se in propria lingua Rascianos vocant, se Serbios (Szerblyi), neque usquam linguam suam, aut nationem, Rascianam nuncupant, sed Serbicam aut Slavicam, Szerbszky, Szlavenski Narod.

        The Serbs and the Bosnians, which Hungarians call Rasciani because of the Rascian state, never call themselves Rasciani in their own language, but Serbios (Szerblyi), and dont call neither their language and people Rasciani, but Slavicam, Szerbszki, Szlavenski Narod.
        (Dissertatio Brevis ac Sincera Hungaris Auctoris de Gente Serbica perperam Rasciana dicta, ejusque meritis et fatis in Hungaria, 1790).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 22:01
It is highly impossible that the Slavs are indigenous,autochtonous in the Balkans.
Reasons:
1.The Greeks had never mentioned a people called Slavs in the ancient times,prior to the Roman times.On the contrary,they had classified the tribes that lived in the Balkan peninsula into two categories according to the language that they spoke:the Thracians and the Illyrians
2.The region of the northern Balkans,(Illyricum,Pannonia,Moesia,Dacia) was occupied by the Romans for such a long period of time that all the barbarian tribes became latinised in such a degree that they identified themselves only as Romans and they were these people that fought against the raiders that came from north of the Danube.There were four to five legions in the Balkans so you can imagine the influence that they had uppon the natives.However the languages of the natives had not disappeared but they were mixed with the vulgar Latin that they spoke.Thus,the romance languages of the Balkans were created,mixed with native words.So,as you see,there is no space for indigenous Slav speaking population in the Balkans under the nose of the Romans.
3.The Slav raids from north of the Danube are recorded not only in history but ther is also archaelogical evidence.The invasion of the Slavs which started in the 6th century A.D was definitely not peacefull.Most of the times the Slavs were not alone but they had an asian people of the steppes as their overlords,like the case of the Avars,the Bulgars and the Serbs and Croatians.It is claimed now by most of the scholars that the Serbs and the Croatians were an Indo-Iranian people from the steppes who was ruling over a population of Slavs.
4 It is a fact noadays,most of the scholars support that the homeland of the Slavic tribes was the Prippet Marshes,and what is now northern Ukraine and Belarussia.Herodotus mentions a slavic tribe in northern Ukraine called Nervi.
5 The culture of the proto-Slavs shows Scythian influence,so they were the western neighbours of the Scythians for a long time



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 03:51

Originally posted by Maju

I'm much more satisfied "a priori" with the derivation from slovo = word. If the language was called by local terms, then why not use a more generic term for the language family, such as word. Also there's no reference to Slavs being particularly religious, just clans and tribes with a low profile. 

 I'm not sure i understand...do u mean they didn't worship any deities or what?(btw, u're ignoring my sanskrit thread, although it contains some stuff very interesting concerning your "speculations").

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 04:44

Dr. Allinei's theory is so full of holes, it doesn't even qualify as swiss cheese with holes... perhpas it can pass as some cheese around the holes

The original author has a rather huge mistake in his article. The original world Sklavus is not Latin but Greek in the form of Sklavos. The Vulgar Latin borrowed the word from Greek, as the presence of the latter precedes the Latin Sklavus by more than a century!

Apparently, both languages have adopted the word, as their ancient equivalents are different (classical Latin word for slave = servus, koine Greek word for slave = doulos) from an outside source, so it makes perfect sense to figure out that the Slavs called themselves that way - it is rather interesting that the name of a people was adopted as the word  "slave".

As to where the name comes from... I am quite unsure and the explaination given does not address various points and can be refuted, although it makes sense in a way.

If you wanna play arrogant with me, you better have some very solid facts to back up that arrogance, or I'll tear you to pieces
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 05:47

  Serbs (Sardi, Serali, Serbi, Sirmi) and Illyro-Moesians The name Serb did not appear in the Balkans in the IV-VII th century with the arrival of the Serb "Boji" tribe in the Western Part of the Balkan Peninsula.

It was used by the ancestors of modern-day Serbs in Antiquity, but was often corrupted as its pronounciation was concerned by foreign greek and roman writers.

In his book "Zapadna Srbija" (recently reprinted - edition house Glas Sardonija), the controversial historian Jovan Deretic shows that the toponomy from this remote period indicates a continual use of the serb name.

Ptolemaeus, Plinius and other historians describe

1) the following places :
- Serbinum or Servitium (3 options for location : Gradiska, Srbac or Zagreb)
- Seralium (Sarajevo)
- Sirmium (Sremska Mitrovica)
- Scardona or Sardona (Skradin)
- Scodra, Sorda or Sarda (Skadar)
- "Sardonici montes" between Stari Vlah, Durmitor and the Prokletije.
- Serdica (Sofia, Bulgaria)
- Servia (Greek Macedonia) ... +
Savaria in Pannonia, Sarmigetuza in Dacia ...

2) the following tribes
- Sardaei (on the Neretva)
- Scordisci or Sordisci (in the illyrian-pannonian border)
- Serdi (in the Sofia region) ...

3) Not to speak about possible transformations of the Serb name (cf Safarik's opinion on the name "Tribal" ...)

The most famous illyrian king Argon is said to have been a Sardaei, and Saint Hyeronimus a Sardus.
The Ravenna Anonymus (writer from the VII th century) describes 3 "Sardonium" or "Sardotium" : 1 in Sarmatia, 1 in Dacia and the last in the South (on the Adriatic and north of Greece-Macedonia).

The serb etruscologist Svetislav Bilbija managed several years ago to interprete old rasenian, lydian and lycian thanks to the Serb language. He published almost 3 books on the subject (let's mention that slovenian venetologists have managed thanks to slovenian language to read venetian tablets from the Venetia-Noric region).
According to him, the etrusc and these two asia minor languages are very close. He considers that the Lydians and Lycians, from the same origin, came in present-day Turkey from the Balkans in ancient times.
The main river of Lycia was called Xanthos by Strabon, who indicates also its old name of Sirbis. The main city of Lydia was called Sard by the foreigners, and Kos by its inhabitants.
In a monument called Xanthos Stella in Lydia, Bilbija managed to read the serb national name "Zrbi' two times.
It is the way Lycian people called their compatriots.

It is now clear that Sard (often used in the Balkans and in the Appenine), Sarm (often used in Pannonia and Sarmatia), and Srb (often used in the Caucasus-Anatolian region) are three vesions of the same name.
The geographical areas of these names are not clearly segmented. It is linked to the inability of foreign writers to understand and pronounce the serb name (in the Lycian-Lydian region, its is obvious that Sard means Zrb).

Its appears clearly that the Serbs of the Balkans did not stop to use their national name since Antiquity (the famous serb historian and linguist Milan Budimir found a lot of personal names as derivatives of the serb national name in greek and latin sources).

The Serbs are really the direct heirs of the Illyro-Moesian tribe of the Balkans.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 05:55

Ah, right, now we know where you are coming from. Yet another ultra nationalist... mentinoning things like a slovenian poet "reading" (gosh...) the venetian inscriptions using slovenian dialects - one of the many great farses of modern Balkanic malady - is typical...

If you wanna play arrogant with me, you better have some very solid facts to back up that arrogance, or I'll tear you to pieces
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 06:11
Originally posted by Alkiviades

Ah, right, now we know where you are coming from. Yet another ultra nationalist... mentinoning things like a slovenian poet "reading" (gosh...) the venetian inscriptions using slovenian dialects - one of the many great farses of modern Balkanic malady - is typical...



 If you are not interesting in the tematic,find your self something more appropriate.

 My hole idea was to "discuss" with people on this forum.
I'm not trying to chang the history,only to show that many things still exist to be exam. 

 For all present:"What was the name of those people before they call them SLAVS"?
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 06:15
Slave?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 06:58
Originally posted by TheDiplomat

Slave?


   Is this AE forum just for kids,or can we discuss in appropriate way.
 Is the knowledge of members of this forum/topic comming only from websites,were they can learn in a few minutes a short version of history?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 07:07
I pardon your biassness,and will be glad to enlight you on this but let me tell you the fact that there are numerous claimes by distinguished historians about the word Slave actually comes from slave..and if you know the relationship between the Khazer Khanagate and these slavic tribes,you would be ashamed of imaging AE just for kids.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 07:24
Originally posted by TheDiplomat

I pardon your biassness,and will be glad to enlight you on this but let me tell you the fact that there are numerous claimes by distinguished historians about the word Slave actually comes from slave..and if you know the relationship between the Khazer Khanagate and these slavic tribes,you would be ashamed of imaging AE just for kids.

 
 Like i tought,kid is still a kid and i can not be mad on him. Read carefully from the top what i posted,if you don't have time for that i can understand,but i can't understand after all i done here you came with one word ''Slave". It's obvious that you still sufer from the period of Khanagate,were they tie kids head with a belt.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 07:42
The illyrian and Moesian population of the Balkan peninsula were latinised during the Roman period and spoke Romance dialects derived from Vulgar Latin at the time the Slavs came to the peninsula.You say that the Serbs who speak a language of the slavic linguistic group are the direct heirs of this population.This is mostly science fiction instead of history.How can you deny the historical written evidence or the archaelogical evidence which shows that there was migration of Slavs from the north?It is obvious that despite the influences from the pre-existing latinised illyrian culture in the culture of the Slavs of the Balkans,  the  Slavs are  neither Thracians nor Illyrians!
Sirmium was a Roman city destroyed by the Avaro-Slavs and Servia in Greece was founded in the medieval times by Heraclius.
In Greek we say doulos for slave.However,when the Avars,the Croats and the Serbs came,the Slavs were slaves of these asian steppe minorities who ruled over them.That's why sklavos came to mean slave in Greek,which is another word we use for doulos today


Edited by RomiosArktos
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 07:48

Originally posted by Surbel

 
 If you are not interesting in the tematic,find your self something more appropriate.

 My hole idea was to "discuss" with people on this forum.
I'm not trying to chang the history,only to show that many things still exist to be exam. 

Since I've posted twice here, I'd figure you are bright enough to understand that I am interested in this subject.... but...

...not in the way you are leading this. I've heard the nationalistic serbian mumbo jumbo (along with the Slavomacedonian, Bulgarian, Slovenian and Croation nationalistic mumbo-jumbo) a hundred times on a thousand fora on the internet and I am quite tired of this. If you want to discuss the origins of the word "slavs", be my guest - I've even said that I consider the Greek and Latins word for slave/Slav derive from the Slavs and not vice versa.

But cut the science fiction crap and Allinei's bull, those ain't fitting the subject anyway.

If you wanna play arrogant with me, you better have some very solid facts to back up that arrogance, or I'll tear you to pieces
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 07:51

Originally posted by Surbel

It's obvious that you still sufer from the period of Khanagate,were they tie kids head with a belt.

interesting...you also have the potential  to make social psychology analysis of people over the internet.

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