Roman city in China!

Originally posted by TMPikachu Italiens are only dark haired and skinned from the Moors.

False

Originally posted by TMPikachu Yeah, they aren't, because they're part Arab.

False

Recent genetic test and analyzing Y-chromozomes have proven this not to be true. The amount of people has to be considered to alter the genetic make-up of a populous significantly.

The ancient Italic people have not been misplaced nor has there been any recent mass migrations.Italy as all areas and countries since ancient times have received atleast minimal mixing but Italians today are inlarge the same since Roman times,infact long before.

Modern society's aren't pure ethnicities.  The ease of travel makes sure of this.

well i had heard that the romans arrived in china as military slaves.

Originally posted by Temujin Originally posted by TMPikachu Italiens are only dark haired and skinned from the Moors.   modern Italians are not ancient Romans.

 

This is your opinion only....

Originally posted by Temujin I also doubt this theory a lot...blonde, blue-eyed, 1.82m tall Romans? LOL

Italiens are only dark haired and skinned from the Moors.

 

NOONE took any photos? That's all the proof I want.

 

 

here's s'more info

http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:YL7MitYI8IgJ:www.uglych inese.org/hsiongnu.htm+lijian+fanmu&hl=en

 

Roman Legions Under Huns & Living In China
 
Charles Hucker claimed in China's Imperial Past (page 129) that some Roman legionaries could be found in the ranks of the Zhizhi Chanyu Huns who relocated to Jiankun Statelet in 51 BC. I had received inquiries from various readers who are interested in authentication. Many years ago, I did read about citations of descendants of Roman legionaries in western China. A good source will be linked at http://dawning.iist.unu.edu/china/bjreview/98Nov/bjr98-46-13 .html. The place of Zhelaizhai Village, Yongchang County, Gansu Province, was quite close to Qinhaihu Lake (i.e., Xihai or West Sea), where the Turkic ancestors were recorded to have dwelled before fleeing to the Altai Mountains.
 
http://www.epochtimes.com/gb/2/6/10/n195575.htm (link to be periodically purged by the host) carried an article written by Zang Yongwen in regards to descendants of Roman legionaries in 'Zhe Lai Village', Yongchang County, Gansu Province. It mentioned that the discovery of Romans was first reported on July 23rd, 1999 by a newspaper called Xin Min Wan Bao (i.e., New People Evening Paper of Shanghai). China's CCTV had a special report on those Romans in year 2002. DNA studies conducted by China's Science Academy had confirmed that those villagers did possess European heritage.
 
After reading Zang Yongwen's writing, I went back to Ban Gu's history, Han Shu, and located one sentence, about six Chinese characters, stating that "Lijian, (Usurper Emperor) Wang Mang called it Jie-lu." This was buried in the paragraph on Zhangye Commandery (a land taken over from Hunnic King Hunye), in the book on Geography. Zang Yongwen stated that Han Dynasty had altogether three cities named after foreign countries and that Lijian, taken as equivalent to Alexandre of Egypt, was one of the three. Zang Yongwen further cited the research by modern historian Guan Yiquan of Nanking University in using the comments on Han Shu by Tang Dynasty's Yan Shigu and the comments on Han Shu by Qing Dynasty's Hui Dong. The conclusion is that the Lijian people of Gansu were Roman mercenaries relocated to Yongchang County by Han Dynasty.
 
The historical context would be the Roman-Parthia Wars. http://www.parthia.com/parthia_history.htm#Roman_Contact had descriptions of the Roman wars with Parthia. The speculation is: Marcus Licinius Crassus (60-53 B.C., member of the 1st Triumvirate, co-ruler with Pompey and Caesar), who led the 45,000 strong army, was executed by his captivators after losing the battle at Carrhae against the Parthians. His son, Publius Licinius Crassus (Moneyer, c. 55 B.C.), in charge of a cavalry, might have broken through the Parthian line with a remnant army of about 6000, and they fled to the Yuezhi people for asylum and worked for the Yuezhi as mercenaries. Some of those Roman legionaries ended up in Zhizhi Chanyu's Huns. In 36 BC, a Han general by the name of Chen Tang, who originally served under Governor-General Gan Yansou, took the initiative in attacking Zhizhi Chanyu Huns at a place close to present Dzhambul in Kazakhstan. History writer, Cai Dongfan, also mentioned the similar records in regards to Chen Tang, stating that Zhizhi Chanyu Huns had defended the city with a tactic called 'Yu Lin Zhen', namely, "the soldiers were drilling with their round shields to form a defensive screen in such a way as to appear like the scales of fish." This strange army had surrounded the castle with huge logs which was also a Roman tactic.
 
The Hunnic Split of 51 BC had to do with five Hunnic chanyu competing with each other. During the reign of Emperor Yuandi, 48-32 BC, one of the Hunnic kings, 'Huhanye Chanyu', surrendered to Chinese. (In 33 BC, 'Huhanye Chanyu', came to Han capital for the second time and was married with lady Wang Zhaojun, a court maid of honour.) Zhizhi Chanyu, afraid of the collusion of Huhanye Chanyu and Han China, decided to relocate westward to Jiankun Statelet when Kang-ju king invited Zhizhi for sake of countering the Wusun rival. Zhizhi Chanyu and Kang-ju King exchanged their daughters for wives of the opposite parties, and in a matter of years, grew in strength, posing a threat to Wusun (Ili) and Dawan (Fergana). At the request of Wu'sun King, Chen Tang organized 6 columns of armies by calling on the Chinese farming soldiers in the west and the Wusun allies. Chen Tang totally defeated Zhizhi Chanyu and killed the chanyu. Chen Tang further burnt down the citadel Zhizhi Chanyu built on a river bank. ('Zhizhi Chanyu' descendanats, namely, the Kirghiz, would stage a comeback in 9th century and replaced the Uygurs of Mongolia around 840s AD.) Chen Tang, for taking military action without consulting with Han emperor, was not recommended for promotion till much later. In his article to emperor, Chen Tang made the famous statement: "Whoever offended the powerful Grand Han Dynasty would be caught and executed no matter how far and away you fled."
 
The speculation is that those Roman mercenaries serving under Zhizhi were taken prisoners of war and then relocated to China's Gansu Province where they remained for two thousand years. Possibly 1,500 Roman prisoners were brought to Zhelaizhai Village, Yongchang County, Gansu Province. Han Emperor Yuandi ordered that a separate county named Lijian be set up. Sui Emperor Wendi of the Sui Dynasty (AD 581-618) ordered the merger of Lijian with Fanmu County 612 years later.

Edited by TMPikachu

Wow, that is so interesting (even if it's true or not) I just love stories of peoples being where they're not supposed to be. I don't know how plausible this scenario is.

Although finding a city of romans nearly 20 years after their last battle. WTF, you think there would be mass desertions and integration into parthian society during that time.

I also doubt this theory a lot...blonde, blue-eyed, 1.82m tall Romans? LOL

I think it is pretty hard to doubt the blondes, blue eyes, and high bridged noses...  Blue eyes, ok, maybe from Iran.  But the blonde hair?

Roman Descendants Found in Gansu

by Our Staff Reporter Cui Bian

Archaeologists from China and other countries have verified a Roman connection with Lijian, an ancient city built during the Western Han Dynasty (206 BC-23), located in Zhelaizhai Village, 10 km south of the county seat of Yongchang, Gansu Province. According to archaeologists, the Roman Republic was called "Lijian" in ancient China, and the city "Lijian" was built to accommodate a group of Roman captives.

However, mystery surrounded how the captives came to be in Gansu, as China had never engaged in a war with Rome due to the distance between the two countries.

A 2,000-Year-Old Puzzle

The question had remained unsolved for nearly 2,000 years, originating in the bloody war between the Roman Republic and Parthia, present day Iran. In 53 BC, or the first year of Ganlu in China's Western Han Dynasty, Roman Consul Marcus Licinius Crassus mustered up seven legions of 45,000 soldiers, and waged a war of invasion against Parthia. Unexpectedly, the arrogant Roman armies were defeated by Parthia, and Crassus was beheaded. Crassus' oldest son, who was captain of the First Roman Legion, led over 6,000 soldiers to break through the siege and fled.

Rome signed a peace treaty with Parthia in 20 BC and required Parthia to repatriate its soldiers captured 33 years ago. However, the remnants of the Roman forces in Parthia were nowhere to be found. Where did they go? The question perplexed not only the Romans then, but historians from all over the world, ever since.

Settlement in China

In the 1940s, various foreign scholars wrote articles discussing the event. One of them pointed out that ancient China named most settlements of immigrants by using the name of their original country. The existence of the City of Lijian was naturally connected with Roman immigrants. Moreover, Lijian first appeared on the map during the Western Han Dynasty in 20 BC, the time when Rome asked Parthia to release its war captives. This was by no means a historical coincidence. It indicated that the Roman soldiers had wandered into China and settled at the foot of the Qilianshan Mountains after they broke through the siege.

In recent years, scholars from China and other countries have been able to consult a large number of historical books with the assistance of related departments in Gansu. They made comparative studies between Chinese and Western historical records, and finally found a clue to the mystery in a biography of Chen Tang in The History of the Former Han Dynasty, written by historian Ban Gu (32-92) of the Eastern Han Dynasty (25-220).

According to records in The History of the Former Han Dynasty, Gan Yanshou and Chen Tang, the two generals stationed in the Western Regions (a Han Dynasty term for the area west of Yumenguan Pass, including what is now Xinjiang and parts of Central Asia), led a troop numbering more than 40,000 in 36 BC to conquer Zhizhi, the present Dzhambul in Kazakhstan. They encountered a strange army in a city surrounded by huge logs. The soldiers were drilling with their round shields to form a defensive screen in such a way as to appear like the scales of fish. Only Roman troops built defense structures with big logs and fought in fish-scaled defensive formation. Historians concluded from their studies that the strange troop was made up of those that remained of the Roman armies.

The Han army attacked the city and was victorious. They captured about 1,500 Romans and brought them to China. Emperor Yuandi ordered that they be settled in Fanmu County (the present Yongchang County) and that a separate county named Lijian be set up. In 592, as the Lijian people had integrated with the Hans, Emperor Wendi of the Sui Dynasty (581-618) ordered the merger of Lijian with Fanmu County. Until that point, the City of Lijian had been in existence for 612 years.

Historians have also found information in many other historical records relating to the existence and evolution of Lijian.

Roman Traces Still Discernible

In May 1993, several archaeologists came to Zhelaizhai Village to conduct a field investigation and small excavation. They discovered that the "Lijian Ruins" as named by the locals, were actually a very old city wall, which was some 10 meters long, 1-2 meters high, and nearly 3 meters at its widest. The wall was built in an "S" shape from clay earth. In the vicinity of the ruins were farm houses. The villagers recalled that in the early 1970s, the wall was close to 100 meters long, three times the present height and fairly wide on the top. Later, people dug the earth from the wall for various purposes, making it shorter and shorter.

The excavation yielded dozens of relics, such as iron cauldrons, iron pots and ceramic kettles. All the relics were verified as remains from the Han Dynasty. Archaeologists found out that in Xinghua Village not far from the ruins, a farmer had dug out a thick big log over 3 meters long, which was inlaid with several wooden clubs. The log was collected by the County Cultural Center. The archaeologists examining the log claimed that most probably, it was an instrument used by the Romans to build the city wall.

The archaeologists conducted their investigations in neighboring villages and to their surprise, they found that many people in the villages, still possess such features as high-bridged noses, deep-set eyes, curly blond hair, and large-boned figures. Song Guorong, 39, was one of them. He was 1.82 meters tall, with a high-bridged nose, large deep-set eyes, and curly blond hair. Song said there were almost 100 people in the area that looked like him. One of Song's relatives was even taller than him with blue eyes. The archaeologists found several children in the village with white skin and blond hair, just like European youngsters.

There are also some unique customs in the area. The most interesting is the locals' worship of the ox. Many families like to make ox-head shaped bread from leavened flour, which they call "ox nose", as a sacrificial offering. The locals have also built Ox God Temples in village shrines and at major crossroads, and erected ox heads as symbols. Before the Beginning of Spring (first solar term), villagers dredge soil from the rivers and mold a "spring ox" in the temple. On the day they carry the "spring ox" out of the temple and smash it as a prayer for future prosperity and a good harvest.

"Ox butting" is a favorite sports with the locals. During this activity, the villagers drive the herds to a slaughterhouse so that the oxen will work themselves into a frenzy as they smell blood and butt each other to death. Experts say that has come from the custom of bullfighting pop-ular with the ancient Romans.

http://www.china.org.cn/Beijing-Review/Beijing/BeijingReview /98Nov/bjr98-46-13.html

Another source: http://www.pip.com.au/~paceman/ROMANS%20IN%20CHINA.html