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Topic ClosedRoman city in China!

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Roman city in China!
    Posted: 19-Nov-2005 at 17:19
About the "tall blonds": don't forget the Cisalpine Gallia, that  gave many many legionaries
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2005 at 12:02

We need pictures of their descendants, we need to see Graves of these Romans.

The steppe was used by all nomads from ancient Tocharians, to other Scythian tribes, to the Huns, and the Turks.  All of which have Indo-European admixtures, and could have easily reached that area.

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2005 at 12:55
Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by TMPikachu

Italiens are only dark haired and skinned from the Moors.

 

modern Italians are not ancient Romans.



Modern Italians are 95% the descendants of the peoples that dwelt in Italy in the Roman age. Southerners look mostly Mediterranean and Northerners are basically of Alpine type, while the center is more Mediterranean but vairegated anyhow. Even an specific Etruscan genetic type has been found precisely in Tuscany.

Germanic invasions had almost no importance, and much less Moorish ones, that in Italy only reached Sicily and the other islands.

Besides, legionaires had to be at least 1.75 m. of height.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2005 at 05:37
Originally posted by Imperatore Dario I

According to records in The History of the Former Han Dynasty, Gan Yanshou and Chen Tang, the two generals stationed in the Western Regions (a Han Dynasty term for the area west of Yumenguan Pass, including what is now Xinjiang and parts of Central Asia), led a troop numbering more than 40,000 in 36 BC to conquer Zhizhi, the present Dzhambul in Kazakhstan. They encountered a strange army in a city surrounded by huge logs. The soldiers were drilling with their round shields to form a defensive screen in such a way as to appear like the scales of fish. Only Roman troops built defense structures with big logs and fought in fish-scaled defensive formation. Historians concluded from their studies that the strange troop was made up of those that remained of the Roman armies.

The Han army attacked the city and was victorious. They captured about 1,500 Romans and brought them to China. Emperor Yuandi ordered that they be settled in Fanmu County (the present Yongchang County) and that a separate county named Lijian be set up. In 592, as the Lijian people had integrated with the Hans, Emperor Wendi of the Sui Dynasty (581-618) ordered the merger of Lijian with Fanmu County. Until that point, the City of Lijian had been in existence for 612 years.

Historians have also found information in many other historical records relating to the existence and evolution of Lijian.

Roman Traces Still Discernible

In May 1993, several archaeologists came to Zhelaizhai Village to conduct a field investigation and small excavation. They discovered that the "Lijian Ruins" as named by the locals, were actually a very old city wall, which was some 10 meters long, 1-2 meters high, and nearly 3 meters at its widest. The wall was built in an "S" shape from clay earth. In the vicinity of the ruins were farm houses. The villagers recalled that in the early 1970s, the wall was close to 100 meters long, three times the present height and fairly wide on the top. Later, people dug the earth from the wall for various purposes, making it shorter and shorter.

The excavation yielded dozens of relics, such as iron cauldrons, iron pots and ceramic kettles. All the relics were verified as remains from the Han Dynasty. Archaeologists found out that in Xinghua Village not far from the ruins, a farmer had dug out a thick big log over 3 meters long, which was inlaid with several wooden clubs. The log was collected by the County Cultural Center. The archaeologists examining the log claimed that most probably, it was an instrument used by the Romans to build the city wall.

The archaeologists conducted their investigations in neighboring villages and to their surprise, they found that many people in the villages, still possess such features as high-bridged noses, deep-set eyes, curly blond hair, and large-boned figures. Song Guorong, 39, was one of them. He was 1.82 meters tall, with a high-bridged nose, large deep-set eyes, and curly blond hair. Song said there were almost 100 people in the area that looked like him. One of Song's relatives was even taller than him with blue eyes. The archaeologists found several children in the village with white skin and blond hair, just like European youngsters.

There are also some unique customs in the area. The most interesting is the locals' worship of the ox. Many families like to make ox-head shaped bread from leavened flour, which they call "ox nose", as a sacrificial offering. The locals have also built Ox God Temples in village shrines and at major crossroads, and erected ox heads as symbols. Before the Beginning of Spring (first solar term), villagers dredge soil from the rivers and mold a "spring ox" in the temple. On the day they carry the "spring ox" out of the temple and smash it as a prayer for future prosperity and a good harvest.

"Ox butting" is a favorite sports with the locals. During this activity, the villagers drive the herds to a slaughterhouse so that the oxen will work themselves into a frenzy as they smell blood and butt each other to death. Experts say that has come from the custom of bullfighting pop-ular with the ancient Romans.



I know I'm late on this but....

#1  This is a cyclic claim that recurrs every couple of years.  For whatever reason Chinese archeologists (and, more influentialy, tourist boards) ignore that tall light skinned peoples occured across the steppes at different times and places.

#2  The details...
Defensive structures with big logs.  -  Not a Roman style.
Round shields. - Not in Roman armies of this period.
Overlapping shields "fish scale"  -  not a feature of Republican Roman armies.
Tall blonds.  - definately not Roman.
Bullfighting (and Mithras cult, bull worship) - Not a Roman fad till about 150 CE.  Bull sacrifice etc was a feature of many Asian cultures though.

If you want to start another rumor contemporary German tribes used round shields, close order formations with overlapping shields, wooden fortifications, were tall and blond, and ... some of them worshipped bulls.

Perhaps some Tutons went a long way East.

rgds.
         Tom..
rgds.

      Tom..
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2005 at 15:30

What if they were resettled there purposely?

Ardashir I (or Shahpur II - I forget which) resettled 70,000 Roman prisoners in Khuzestan and set them to work on infrastructure etc.

I think it is just a little romantic to think 6000 Romans escaped and made their way to China on their own accord and unhindered.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2005 at 13:03

I find it difficult for any Roman Legionnaires (prisoners) to "wander" into China.  They had to:

1. Go throught ancient "Persia"

2.  This is where you can take two routes, either take the Afgan route, or into Central Asia.  Central Asia seems more likely.

3.  This is where I doubt it, once in Central Asia, they have to pass the TianShan mountain range or shoot the gap between TianShan and the Altai mountain.

4.  Then you get to the Takla Makan Desert. 

Bear in mind, that there are nomads at every point they pass.  A bunch of prisoners with barely any provisions.  Not impossible, but hard to believe.  I would go far as to say that the furthest they could have gone was either to India or Central Asia.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2005 at 03:26
[QUOTE=SJI Lasallian] I never encountered
chinese with such features before...
[/
QUOTE]

Because Chinese in Singapore, are all migrated
from GuangDong & Fujian province which is a
southern China.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2005 at 02:33
I believe though that the soldiers that lost the battle could have escaped the persians and made it to central asia.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2005 at 21:21

The roman army of the time did not have round shields. There shields were oval shaped and were called Scutums. Also what does he mean when he says when they fight in fish scale formations because the romans formations did not look anything like scales.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2005 at 12:52
Originally posted by Salvius

First off, the Arabs spent barely 80 years on Sicilian soil during the 7th and 8th century. The land they occupied was not very large as well. Ask yourself this, how many Arab ruins are in Italy? I think there is only one in Sicily, a harem for what ever military ruler was there at the time. Now, how many Roman ruins are in the Middle East? Countless, dozens upon dozens. So if anyone has really left a genetic imprint who do you really think it was? Italians have had dark hair and fair to olive skin for millenia. Take a look at old Etruscan murals if you can.
all agreed, but regarding Arabic remaining buildings I have to add that Arabs were not so much of Architects, they were mostly nomads and have been introduced to architecture in general by their neighbors.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2005 at 05:40

All of the gauls in the battle died in the begining against the Parthian Cavalry.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2005 at 04:01
Couldn't the blond 'romans' have been Gaulish auxiliaries?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2005 at 02:21
nice post Imperatore Dario I
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2005 at 02:15

              I wonder if the romans gave any new knowledge to the chinese.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2005 at 19:23

Originally posted by SJI Lasallian

I never encountered chinese with such features before...

I have, they come from the tribes of Lo'real



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Dec-2004 at 09:45

Originally posted by Salvius

First off, the Arabs spent barely 80 years on Sicilian soil during the 7th and 8th century. The land they occupied was not very large as well. Ask yourself this, how many Arab ruins are in Italy? I think there is only one in Sicily, a harem for what ever military ruler was there at the time. Now, how many Roman ruins are in the Middle East? Countless, dozens upon dozens. So if anyone has really left a genetic imprint who do you really think it was? Italians have had dark hair and fair to olive skin for millenia. Take a look at old Etruscan murals if you can.

The Romans were in the Middle East for much much longer than 80 years...

And I also don't believe Italians and Arabs left any imprints on one another.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Dec-2004 at 08:47
First off, the Arabs spent barely 80 years on Sicilian soil during the 7th and 8th century. The land they occupied was not very large as well. Ask yourself this, how many Arab ruins are in Italy? I think there is only one in Sicily, a harem for what ever military ruler was there at the time. Now, how many Roman ruins are in the Middle East? Countless, dozens upon dozens. So if anyone has really left a genetic imprint who do you really think it was? Italians have had dark hair and fair to olive skin for millenia. Take a look at old Etruscan murals if you can.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2004 at 17:39
Originally posted by Kids

Originally posted by Zhuang

Hmm very interesting. In fact there are also posts on this topic in China. Check the following links if you understand Chinese.

http://www.jsnx.net/luntan/BbsList.asp?TID=957 (GB)

http://bbs.thu.edu.tw/cgi-bin/bbscon?board=Sango&file=M. 1038125382.A&num=322 (Big5)

They are arguing that during the Three Kingdoms, the famous general Ma Chao (from Gansu) could have been leading a Romanic army.

 

 

Man, I dont believe that. Just because Ma Chao used tactic akin to Romans, doesnt mean HE was Roman origin. I meant during the Warring States era, infantries were fought like Macedonians: long lance with round shield in a phalanx-like formation. So can you assume that Qin (200bc) copied Greeks way of war, because Qin was located near the inner Asia, and their rise corresponsed to the Alexander's conquest, which reached as far as Afghanistan?

That was just non-sense.

 

Ma Chao fought along the Qiang and used steppes tactics, he commanded an army of mounted spearmen



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2004 at 15:33

I'd like to see some real proof of a Roman city being founded in ancient China.  Does seem like an odd place for it.

As to the genetic makeup of Italians, over 90% of the genetic makeup of Europeans hasn't changed since Paleolithic times, despite all the comings and goings of migrating peoples. 

Most Italians, like other Mediterranean peoples, are dark-haired and fair-skinned (though often tanned).  The blonds, found mostly in northern Italy, come from Germanic (Lombard) stock.  At least, that's the prevailing theory.

As for the Cumans, their westernmost expansion overlapped territories that once marked the easternmost expansion of the Ostrogoths.  That area, north of the black sea, passed from the goths to the Huns, and then a multitude of peoples who passed thru.  Could be that the Gothic genes remained in the area. My guess is that is where the blond hair came from.

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2004 at 02:52
Originally posted by Zhuang

Hmm very interesting. In fact there are also posts on this topic in China. Check the following links if you understand Chinese.

http://www.jsnx.net/luntan/BbsList.asp?TID=957 (GB)

http://bbs.thu.edu.tw/cgi-bin/bbscon?board=Sango&file=M. 1038125382.A&num=322 (Big5)

They are arguing that during the Three Kingdoms, the famous general Ma Chao (from Gansu) could have been leading a Romanic army.

 

 

Man, I dont believe that. Just because Ma Chao used tactic akin to Romans, doesnt mean HE was Roman origin. I meant during the Warring States era, infantries were fought like Macedonians: long lance with round shield in a phalanx-like formation. So can you assume that Qin (200bc) copied Greeks way of war, because Qin was located near the inner Asia, and their rise corresponsed to the Alexander's conquest, which reached as far as Afghanistan?

That was just non-sense.



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