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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: God
    Posted: 14-Jan-2006 at 23:50
Before I ever start, I must confess I certainly did not think of this myself. I have no idea where I first heard it but it has been a part of my belief system for a very long time and I was wondering what you all think.

I am 110% devoted to Islam as my faith and I can't even imagine believing in anything else. I am so convinced it is...real.

But...

I believe God is so abstract and so...big...that it doesn't surprise me that humans have developed 10,000 different ways to express God. In fact, I don't much doubt that God revealed himself to us in so many different ways - Catholicism, Buddism, native American religions - to make it easier for us to understand, relatively stupid beings that we are.

What do you all who believe in God think about that? And what do you who do not believe in God think of it as well?

EDIT: I suppose this is exactly what the Pope means when he says Catholics must fight against "relativism", but I believe in it.


Edited by Mila
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  Quote Fort Brooklyn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 00:47

I am not particularly a believer of a God, per say. To me, death is an lifetime mystery, until I reach it of course.

It could mean the end of your life. Or it could mean the start of a new one. I won't know till I reach it.

Not a believer in any man-made faith, I'm all for science. But no one can debunk what REALLY happens after death, can they?



Edited by Fort Brooklyn
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  Quote Infidel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 00:50

God revealed Himself to every people on earth through the times. The different religions that emerged from those revelations demonstrate the human perceptions of it and natural corruptions that occured.

My belief is that God is so absolute and so above us that any perception we have of Him is utterly incomplete and inaccurate. I believe, as well, that Islam more properly reflects not only what God is but what He has in store for us. 

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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 01:44
Originally posted by Fort Brooklyn


Not a believer in any man-made faith,

lol. Me neither. I'm a muslim.

Originally posted by Fort Brooklyn


I'm all for science

One thing I really love about Islam is the way that science continuosly works to prove the Qu'oran correct. I've often heard arguements between atheists and christians, where the atheists are trying to use science to disprove God, and have thought that not one of the arguements they are using does anything except to strenghten Islam.
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  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 01:50

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

[QUOTE=Fort Brooklyn]

One thing I really love about Islam is the way that science continuosly works to prove the Qu'oran correct. I've often heard arguements between atheists and christians, where the atheists are trying to use science to disprove God, and have thought that not one of the arguements they are using does anything except to strenghten Islam.

And how does science do this? What does atheists trying to disprove Christianity have to do with strenthening Islam?

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 01:57

I find the concept of one all knowing all powerful god to be the most preposterous idea ever conceived by humanity.  At least Polytheism has the idea that it takes more than one to tango.  One all powerful all knowing being, thats one idea I could never swallow.  Nothing is eternal and no creature is invincible or eternally dominant.  If supernatural beings do exist wouldnt it be far more reasonable to assume there are alot more than one?

Furthermore, if such a being did somehow exist why would they create such imperfect creatures?  It must be a sick desire to watch people kill each other in the creators name then.  Well, hell maybe that would be fun.

Still, god or gods does serve a purpose, it brings happiness to some people and thus thats why it exists.  Religious devotion, just like puppies and crack cocaine stimulates the same  part of the brain that pleases people. 

But most of all I think god, and claiming to know hes, hers, or its will is an excuse for insecure people to take some nebulous moral high ground over others and take away their liberties.

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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 02:14
Originally posted by strategos

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

[QUOTE=Fort Brooklyn]

One thing I really love about Islam is the way that science continuosly works to prove the Qu'oran correct. I've often heard arguements between atheists and christians, where the atheists are trying to use science to disprove God, and have thought that not one of the arguements they are using does anything except to strenghten Islam.

And how does science do this? What does atheists trying to disprove Christianity have to do with strenthening Islam?



Evolution, for example.

The Bible says God created the world in 7 days, and man was simply created as he was. Science suggests otherwise.

The Koran says God created man from water, in various stages. Which many interpret to mean evolution.

There are hundreds of little...at the very least circumstantial...points like this.

The Koran says God created the universe suddenly and it is still explanding - big bang? And we know the galaxies are growing farther apart.

Little things like that.


Edited by Mila
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  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 02:17
Originally posted by Mila

Originally posted by strategos

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

[QUOTE=Fort Brooklyn]

One thing I really love about Islam is the way that science continuosly works to prove the Qu'oran correct. I've often heard arguements between atheists and christians, where the atheists are trying to use science to disprove God, and have thought that not one of the arguements they are using does anything except to strenghten Islam.

And how does science do this? What does atheists trying to disprove Christianity have to do with strenthening Islam?



Evolution, for example.

The Bible says God created the world in 7 days, and man was simply created as he was. Science suggests otherwise.

What is 7 days Mila? When the world was being created our seven days are not neccesarily the same "seven" days as then. 1 day could be 2 billion years for all we know.

The Koran says God created man from water, in various stages. Which many interpret to mean evolution.



There are hundreds of little...at the very least circumstantial...points like this.

But anyways I see, but "disproving" the Bible does not help prove the Quran. Perhaps some more examples would be good.

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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 02:19
Oh I don't agree with the "disproving" the bible part, sorry - I didn't realize anyone had said that.

At the VERY least, to me, the Bible is metaphorical. Using stories to make a point. But with all the translations, from differernt languages, etc...I wouldn't be surprised to find a few little bits that contradict but...

People focus so much on the rules and the little things, then they miss the whole overall message of the faith.
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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 02:26
And I mean, if you have faith you can always find a way to keep yourself afloat.

Take the same example - evolution.

There is so much evidence that evolution itself is accepted as general scientific fact - the theory of evolution is an attempt to explain how it happens, not that it happens.

Fossils, the Galapagos Islands, Australia, and so on are all evidence of this.

Now it would seem to a logical mind - well...? Christianity is wrong, then?

But you can simply say - God created the world, and this is what he made. Forget how many thousands or billions of years Christians and Scientists talk about when discussing the earth's age - God could have made exactly this world 5 minutes ago if he wanted. Placed the fossils, placed the evidence of evolution, gave us our memories, gave us our knowledge.

So you can never really disprove these faiths. If you could, someone would have done it long before now.
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 02:39
Oh trust me, if they were disproven tommorow the people would still cling to their religions.  As it is enough people still think the world is 6,000 years old, adn thats disproven, as well as being just sad.
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 07:55
I understand that we call God to the ultimate cause of the existence, whichever it is. For a materialist that could be a merely physical "ultimate" in the sense of the Theory of All that is being searched for. For Jainism God is a soul-less stratified criature in which we and the gods live, for Daoism God is undefinable and it's all, for Buddhism God is unimportant and source of divisions: the spiritual quest doesn't need of God, for Polytheisms there is not one God but many, all imbricated in a diffuse superior whole, for Abrahamanic religions God is a personal being that is alien to our world and yet created it and revealed "himself" to several peoples (prophets) through history, even incarnating himself in a person by nature of "his" compassion (mainstream Christianity), for archaic Indian and Basque religions God is dual female-male source of fertility and the cosmic dance.

There are many approaches to the Divine and Spiritual and I'm sure that none is totally perfect but all them are somehow partial and limited. That's wy I've embraced a loose Pantheism, because I think that everything: the holy and the blaspheme, the small and big, the simple and the complex... all are parts and constructs of the same Whole, which can conveniently be called God.

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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 09:28

Originally posted by Mila

Before I ever start, I must confess I certainly did not think of this myself. I have no idea where I first heard it but it has been a part of my belief system for a very long time and I was wondering what you all think.

I am 110% devoted to Islam as my faith and I can't even imagine believing in anything else. I am so convinced it is...real.

But...

I believe God is so abstract and so...big...that it doesn't surprise me that humans have developed 10,000 different ways to express God. In fact, I don't much doubt that God revealed himself to us in so many different ways - Catholicism, Buddism, native American religions - to make it easier for us to understand, relatively stupid beings that we are.

What do you all who believe in God think about that? And what do you who do not believe in God think of it as well?

EDIT: I suppose this is exactly what the Pope means when he says Catholics must fight against "relativism", but I believe in it.


What no pictures in this post..... I wanna see a picture of the god of bosnia.

Personally I think god is a perfect example of a backward engineered solution.

I've also wondered who created god?

God has existed forever, god made the world in 7 days several thousand/million years ago. So what did he do forever before he created the world? Is this world the 90th attempt? Was he sitting there for eternity thinking 'god i'm bored'?

 

Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.
-- Bertrand Russell, "Is There a God?" commissioned by, but never published in, Illustrated Magazine (1952: repr. The Collected Papers of Bertrand Russell, Volume 11: Last Philosophical Testament, 1943-68, ed. John G. Slater and Peter Kllner (London: Routledge, 1997), pp. 543-48, quoted from S. T. Joshi, Atheism: A Reader



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  Quote Kian_the_great Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 12:00
Originally posted by Fort Brooklyn

I am not particularly a believer of a God, per say. To me, death is an lifetime mystery, until I reach it of course.

It could mean the end of your life. Or it could mean the start of a new one. I won't know till I reach it.

Not a believer in any man-made faith, I'm all for science. But no one can debunk what REALLY happens after death, can they?

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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 12:17
Do you have to post 'nerd alert' all over the place?
Arrrgh!!"
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 13:01
Originally posted by Mila




Evolution, for example.

The Bible says God created the world in 7 days, and man was simply created as he was. Science suggests otherwise.

The Koran says God created man from water, in various stages. Which many interpret to mean evolution.



Uh, seriously, the 7-day creation and men-from-water seem like equally bad metaphores of evolution. In fact you could probably interpret just about anything from both of them.

Edited by Styrbiorn
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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 13:25
The thing about believers of God is that you can't rationalize with them. You can discuss science with some of them and they are more or less fine about that but whenever you say there is no God, he brings you nonsense arguments like "If you haven't seen God, how can you say he isn't real." and then he grins you in the face and walks away like bloody Aristotle, attaching himself to that thin line of absurdity. I could just the same say Hitler and Stalin were brothers in blood and ideals, because i never saw them say otherwise. The logic stays the same.
Faith in God is and has always been a sub-concious reaction. It is a normal social element which has less to do with a divine creature being real then a mouse passing gas has with magic. Religion is a part of our culture as is art and other traditions, it is an animal reflex which we can't control. It has evolved into todays form as art has evolved through time. It all comes from our brains, its electrical reactions and imagination, not much to it.
And yes, a good point - If God created us, he must have been really disturbed, atleast during the time. Well later aswell because he didn't wipe us off the face of this planet. Take a look at us, we are repulsing, emotional creatures who don't satisfy with nothing for anything. We will never reach the perfection we seek and we enjoy killing each other just as we did during the beginning of human society. Whoever says we have evolved into something better from the days of tha great apes, is a romantic. God must be on leave right now, but in his divine timeframe, a million years is only a second, so he will be gone quite a while people. And what i have come to think about life as an essence contradicts God anyway.
I believe that life is the greatest fluke of nature, it is a result of accidental electrical reactions that by chance created the first living single-cell organisms and from that point forward we were under the command of evolution and if you look at what we have become, you'll see that life is the most unsucessful experiment ever concieved. well actually a fluke as i said before. The most destructive thing or essence ever happened, is life in general. That meaning, if God really created us, he is a somewhat like Mike Myers - an emotionless pulp with the darkest feelings life can muster all put together in one essence or being. Not something i would dare follow or listen to.

There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge...
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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 14:11
Originally posted by Kalevipoeg

The thing about believers of God is that you can't rationalize with them.


Okay, that was the best post introduction I've ever read. I disagree, but that was good.
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  Quote Cent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 14:34

Hehe Kalevipoeg

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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 14:45

I believe there is God,nothing more.

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