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Huns(Xiongnu), Turks(Tujue) and Mongols

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Huns(Xiongnu), Turks(Tujue) and Mongols
    Posted: 05-Dec-2004 at 16:06
Originally posted by ihsan

I thought it was the Yuezhi, mentioned in Greek as Tokharoi, that destroyed the Greek Bactrian Kingdom

it was indeed the Sakas, who where in turn themselves driven out by the Yezhi.

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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 07:23
Strange; either Grousset somehow missed the Saka or I remember wrong what I read
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 11:50
well yeah, their rule was pretty brief.
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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 12:08

"Strange; either Grousset somehow missed the Saka or I remember wrong what I read"

 

He missed the sakas, in fact from his book "rise and splendour of the chinese empire" I can say that he THINKS the sakas were the Yue Shi.

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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 12:41
That is even weirder, so he contradicts with his Empire of the Steppes
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  Quote Genghis Khan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 13:24

i didnt read the first 2 pages, so sorry if you explained this already.

in the chinese archives they said the language of the huns were very similar to the language of a turkic tribe(i dont remember the name of the tribe). the word hun is also a turkic word meaning people or nation. its also said that the trukish came from the far east. the huns did consist of some mongols, but mostly turkish.

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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 13:48

Welcome

It's written that the Xiongnu language was the same with the Gaoche language, except a few dialectic/local differences.

Qun and Khun mean "People" in both Turkic and Mongolian.

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  Quote Dayanhan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2004 at 04:35

Originally posted by cliveersknell

The Wuhuan are a branch of Xianbei people that migrated from the Hulun Buir steppes to northern Liaoning , Jilin and
even Jehol, they eventually became the Qidan.

r's
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That's a very interesting idea. Where did you get this idea?

But, in so far as I remember, Kitan's did not related themseves to Ohaan (Wuhuan).

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  Quote capcartoonist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2004 at 15:56

The Xiongnu were driven into the central steppes.  The Huns later appeared out of the central steppes.  It is assumed, though not proven, that the Huns descended from the Xiongnu.

As for the makeup of the Hunnish people, it was a catch-all for everyone they came in contact with.  Mongolian features and dialects, Turks, Finns (!), Goths, and what-all.  The Hunnish core was probably Mongolic-Turkic (or Altaic, if you like), which is probably what the Xiongnu were orginally. 

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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2004 at 17:48
The real Huns couldn't have been Mongolic, there are no evidences to proove that.
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  Quote therecanbeonlywar! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2005 at 19:58

Originally posted by warhead

No, the Saka did, they were pushed out of Sungaria by the Yue Zhi and went south to destroy the Bactrian kingdom. The Yue Zhi came later and pushed out the Saka, when Zhang Qian went westwards, the Yue Zhi's base of operation was already around Bactria.

Really? Care to elaborate more on the Sakas of Dzungaria? I haven't encountered any sources (at least online) that directly say the Sakas controlled territories in Dzungaria. The kurgans in the Altai area were similar to the Scythians culturally but they were technically not Scythians, at least not racially.



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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2005 at 20:39

"Really? Care to elaborate more on the Sakas of Dzungaria? I haven't encountered any sources (at least online) that directly say the Sakas controlled territories in Dzungaria. The kurgans in the Altai area were similar to the Scythians culturally but they were technically not Scythians, at least not racially."

 

The primary sources listed come from Shi Ji, the Sakas are known as the Se in Chinese. They were first pushed out by the Wusun and later the Yue Shi. Nothing more is recorded other than greek record at the same time recording the sakas overruning the Greco Bactrian kingdoms. So the Se in all probability is the same people as the Sakas which the Greek and chinese record of geography seem to confirm and its already quite established in the historical society.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2005 at 13:03

Originally posted by warhead

The primary sources listed come from Shi Ji, the Sakas are known as the Se in Chinese. They were first pushed out by the Wusun and later the Yue Shi. Nothing more is recorded other than greek record at the same time recording the sakas overruning the Greco Bactrian kingdoms. So the Se in all probability is the same people as the Sakas which the Greek and chinese record of geography seem to confirm and its already quite established in the historical society.

Most sources I've encountered state that the Sae peoples (I do not doubt they were most likely Saka tribes) originally lived in the territory that were later dominated by the Wu Sun, an area encompassing the Ili River Valley and the Issyk-Kul region. They were later driven out of the area circa 177/176 BC by invading Da (Major) Yue Zhi from Gansu, causing some Sakas to cross the Hindu Kush while some migrated to Bactria. Later, the Wu Sun came and drove out the Major Yue Zhi circa 130 BC, causing them to migrate to the Amu Darya valley, as ch.123 in the Shiji describes. Primary sources like the Han Shu place the Wu Sun capital 8,900 li from Chang'an, so it was, as Wylie estimates, probably around Kulja, east of Lake Issyk-Kul, or could have been around modern Karakol. The Wu Sun could have controlled small parts of the Dzungar Basin in the far west but probably not the majority of it.

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  Quote therecanbeonlywar! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2005 at 19:51
Ok. I am actually "newuser". I was typing the reply at school today and when I logged on to my school account and went online to AE, I was logged on to AE already as "newuser" (for some unknown reason), whoever created that account (maybe I forgot that it was my account, dunno). For the sake of convenience, I just used that username and typed in my reply.

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  Quote Rava Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2005 at 09:07

In one of interesting linguistic books I have found following iranian influence present in slavonic languages:

gunja, primary meaning probably ' fur coat, plaid'. Old russian gnja, ukrainian hnja, polish gunia, bulgarian gnja, serbo-croatian gûnj.

Probably its from old iranian: *gauna-, awestan.: gaōna -"Hair".

We know that for the Persians the term Xyōn was generalized as "nomad tribe from the North" and there were some following waves of the conquerors. In Avestan texts these nomads were called H'yaona. Could somebody tell me if the avestan word H'yaona is identical with gaōna ? We also know that in some turkic inscriptions the word Hun appeared in form Gunna. What do you think of this thesis. Huns as the nomads using saddle cloths, wool plaids or something like that.

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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2005 at 12:49
The word Gunna is not avaible in Turkic inscriptions. In Old Turkic, words don't start with "G/Gh".
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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2005 at 00:13
Yes, the Wusun most probably only had western sungaria
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  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2005 at 00:26
Originally posted by ihsan

That is even weirder, so he contradicts with his Empire of the Steppes


enjoy thumbing through this book, it is so out of date..
it must be. I wonder overall, what percentage of it is accurate.
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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2005 at 14:48
My course teacher once said 60% of it is still accurate.
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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 22:46
The Hun tribes, or as the Chinese called them the Xiongnu or Xiongnu stemmed basically from the Siberian branch of the Mongolian race. During the third and second centuries BCE they rose to great power and became a tribal confederation. During Emperor Mo-tun reign (208-175 BCE), the Xiongnu were at the zenith of their might and occupied a huge territory from Lake Baikal on the north to the Ordos plateau on the south and the Liao River on the east. By 55-34 BCE their political influence reached as far as the lower Volga and the Ureal foothills. This expansion westwards significantly increased the trade with the western world. The trade route was leading now from the west through the northern oasis of east Turkestan to the Xiongnus' headquarters in north Mongolia and southward to north China.

The basis of the Xiongnus' economy was herding, mostly pastoral nomads who lived in felt-cobbled tents, using bow and arrow from horseback. By the first century BCE there were also large settled populations with well-developed agriculture of millet, barley and wheat. The production of crafts flourished as wll, iron and bronze was smelted in their workshops and fine tools, weaponry, household utensils, jewelry and ceramics were produced.

Chinese sources inform us that the Xiongnu worshiped the sun, moon, heaven, earth, and to their ancestors. They had shamans or medicine men who had great influence over the tribesmen. The horse played a leading role in the herder's migration, hunting and war. In special ceremonies they sacrificed white horses and drank the blood. When a man died his widows were married either to a younger brother or a son. When a great chief died, concubines and retainers were often killed and buried with him. The Xiongnu apparently had no writing. It is believed that they spoke one of the Turkic languages (Guniley, 1960, pp. 48-49; Meanchen-Helfen, 1973, pp. 376-443). However, the question of language is far from being resolved.

During the newly established Chinese Han dynasty (AD 206-220), China expanded its borders and the Xiongnu empire lost ground. Weakened by the loss of men and animals because of their constant battles, and the split by internal dissension, the tribes of the confederation began one by one to accept a position of vassalage under China. The northern Xiongnu moved from Outer Mongolia into what was than Dzaungaria, where they conquered a new but short lived empire. With the beheading of their leader by a Chinese army the group disappeared from history.

The southern Xiongnu, who replaced their northern kindred in Outer Mongolia, remained at peace with China for some years. With the turn of the Christian Era these Xiongnu extended their power west into Dzungaria and reasserted their independence from China, although some tribes along the borderlands remained vassals of the Chinese and served as buffers against their independent kinsmen. In the first of this millenium the Hsien Pei, a Tungusic or Mongol people, appeared north of China and conquered Mongolia, forcing the independent Xiongnu into Dzungaria. A century later the Hsien Pei also gained control of Dzungaria. The Xiongnu who had remained on the borders of China lingered on in history until the fifth century. Those who were forced out of Dzungaria by the Hsien Pei disappeared from notice in A.D. 170.

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