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Huns(Xiongnu), Turks(Tujue) and Mongols

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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Huns(Xiongnu), Turks(Tujue) and Mongols
    Posted: 26-Oct-2004 at 09:28

It was the Yuezhi that destroyed the Greek/Bactrian kingdoms, right?

 

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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2004 at 19:33
No, the Saka did, they were pushed out of Sungaria by the Yue Zhi and went south to destroy the Bactrian kingdom. The Yue Zhi came later and pushed out the Saka, when Zhang Qian went westwards, the Yue Zhi's base of operation was already around Bactria.
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  Quote Scytho-Sarmatian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2004 at 03:40

Saka is the word which means "Scythian" in the Persian and Indian languages.  The Sakas who entered India were originally centered in the area of the Aral Sea.  Being nomads, they moved from pasture to pasture throughout the steppe region until the Yue Zhi forced them south, out of these grazing lands and into Bactria, and eventually western India.  A large number of the Rajput peoples of India trace their ancestry to the Sakas. 

Incidently, the Yue Zhi themselves were later forced out of the steppe region and into Bactria and India, following the same pattern as the Sakas.  It is believed that the Yue Zhi were descended from the Tocharians of Xinjiang.  Their greatest king in India was Kanishka, who ruled around 100 AD.

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  Quote Rava Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2004 at 04:09

Yue Zhi i.e. Asi + Tochari forced Saka (Amyrgians) in Ferghana and Alai Valley. Some digs give evidence that only ruling class entered the Cities while the majority of people continued pastoral way of life. Part of Saka joined Yeu Zhi in their conquest of Bactria. Since the period of their stay in this part of Central Asia was relatively short perhaps the participation of the Sakas in the confederation gave the effect of iranization mentioned by Ishan.

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  Quote Scytho-Sarmatian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2004 at 04:34

Rava-

I have a quick question for you which has been bothering me for a while.  Do you know if any Sarmatians were included among the Sakas who had migrated to India?  I have read some sources which state that the western Indian region of Saurashtra was named after the Sauromatae/Sarmatians.  However, other sources state that the name Saurashtra means "land of the sun-worshippers."  Still others say that Saurashtra means "land of the Solar Medes (Saurya Madra)," and they say that Sauromatae also means "Solar Medes."  It's all a little confusing.  However, it makes sense to me to say that Sarmatians did indeed end up in India, because the Sarmatians had become the dominant group amongst the Scythian peoples by this time (c. 100 BC).  What do you think?

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  Quote Rava Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2004 at 04:52
Some conect Jat clans of India with the ethnonym Getae connecting with Alano-Sarmatian World. Generaly the term Sarmatians describe Royal Scythians and Ugri Tribe together whose dwelled in Panonia.
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  Quote Scytho-Sarmatian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2004 at 05:22

Thanks for your response. 

If it were true that the Jats were descended from the Getae who were connected with the Alano-Sarmatian World, it would show just how wide ranging the Alan-Sarmatian World really was.  The Sarmatian influence could be determined to have ranged clear across the Eurasian continent from Alanic Spain and even Britain (Roman-Sarmatian cavalry) through E. Europe and Central Asia up to the border of China and down into northwestern India.  That would have made a pretty impressive empire had they been united.

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2004 at 12:25
are we talking about the same Getae? getae were Steppeified Thracians, not Sarmatians.
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  Quote Rava Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2004 at 17:25
You are absolutely right. Greeks used to call the Thracians Getae. However in times of Darius some Jat tribes were called Euergetae. We had Massageta as well. Had they same ancestors, say ancient Guttians, I don't know. Jat's Dandaki in India and Danes in Juttland; Goths called Scythians nad Thracian Getae, Javinges in what is today Lithuania 
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  Quote Scytho-Sarmatian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2004 at 03:39

As far as I can tell from my research, the Sarmatians had become the dominant group among the steppe peoples by about the 2nd Century B.C.  I'm pretty sure that the Sarmatian domain had stretched from the Danube through the Ukraine and Southern Russia/Northern Caucasus through Central Asia up to at least the edge of Bactria.  That would make the Sakas of that time at least partly Sarmatian.  Don't forget that the Persians referred to Scythians, Massagetae, and Sarmatians collectively as Saka.  Then, about that time, the Yueh Zhi (known to the Indians as Kushans) invaded the steppes from  Xinjiang up to about the Aral Sea area and forced the Sakas who had been there down into Bactria, and eventually India.  It's possible that I may be wrong about the time frame of when the Aorsi branch of the Sarmatians had been in Central Asia.  Were they there by 100 BC, or did they arrive later, presumably from the west?

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  Quote Scytho-Sarmatian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2004 at 07:22

Rava-

Are the Asi the same as the Aorsi?  If so, that would pretty much answer all my questions.

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  Quote Rava Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2004 at 12:02
Some scholars assume that Asi, As/Jas (Alanian ethnonym) and Aorsi (Sarmatian ethnonym) are various version of the same root.
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2004 at 14:57
well, Massagets are however neither Thracians nor Sarmatians. only when they moved west and mixed with Sarmatians they eventually became the Alans.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2004 at 13:16
um.. ..actually.. do you guys know what actually
happened in the history of Xiongnu? well.. if you guys
do.. can you guys descibe it more in a specific
way..Please? because I'm doing a history project for
my school and I need alot of infomation.. and I can't
find any interesting information.. well.. thanks
anyways.. ><
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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2004 at 13:50

The northern xiongnu moved out of mongolia after been destroyed by Dou Xian's Han army in 91 A.D., after the Han army reinstalled a puppet Chang Yu on the throne, the Xianbei of Manchuria moved into Mongolia, the new northern xiongnu court was restricted to the area around Sungaria. They became independent in less than a year, and gained strength during the early years of the 2nd century a.d. and once again start to raid the tarim. Hou Han shu describe the kingdom of Ju Shi after its king murdered a Han envoy medaling with the affairs of the country, escaped to the Northern Xiongnu and asked for aid which they agreed. The Han then asked him to come back and would not get punished. This was in 151 A.D., no mention of them later was found and they are most likely destroyed by Tang Shi Huai's xianbei empire sometime around the 160s a.d.

The southern xiongnu had little power by this time and their ChangYu was assasinated by their own people in 190 after they assisted the Han to crush the yellow turban rebellion. The ChangYu from then on is merely nominal and the pressure of Xianbei conquered much of the Southern xiongnu while the remainder still loyal to the ChangYu escaped to Han territory where Cao Cao stationed them along the northern frontier. They would later rise against the Jin dynasty and proclaim to restore the Han. They did conquer most of northern China but by the time of Shi Min, he started a program of genocide and exterminationg against the xiongnu people. The aristocrats escaped north, and invided the Murong of the Yan state in, Shi Min was killed and the xiongnu empier ended, soon no more mentioning of Xiongnu existed intext.

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  Quote sephodwyrm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2004 at 21:02

Wait...isn't Shi Min known as Ran Min as well? There's many sources that say that Ran Min is a Han... and that the Shi house that ruled Latter Zhao was of Jie (which is a branch within the Xiong Nu).

The real Xiongnu empires in the Jin dynasty, according to what I read, are Hu Xia of the house of He Lian and Han of the house of Liu (founded by Liu Yuan who claimed himself a descendant of Liu Bang).



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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2004 at 00:27
I'm spared of the time of going into detail about the Zhao, the Han was ursurped by a Han commander claiming that Barbarians shouldn't rule, he was eventually defeated by Shi le and most of the north also fell under him, his origin is most likely xiongnu and he lived as a bandit after the Jin persecuted him.
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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2004 at 20:25

couldn't they tell by the way he looked tho?

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  Quote Rava Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Dec-2004 at 04:56
It remains the black hole. Xiong nu disappeared from the charts of the history and on the West appeared various names like Chionites, Chunni, Hun Horse Tribes, Alchoni, Camel Hun Tribes etc.
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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2004 at 05:29

No, the Saka did, they were pushed out of Sungaria by the Yue Zhi and went south to destroy the Bactrian kingdom. The Yue Zhi came later and pushed out the Saka, when Zhang Qian went westwards, the Yue Zhi's base of operation was already around Bactria.

I thought it was the Yuezhi, mentioned in Greek as Tokharoi, that destroyed the Greek Bactrian Kingdom

Saka is the word which means "Scythian" in the Persian and Indian languages.

The Scythians were Eastern European Sakas, not all Saka were Scythians.

It is believed that the Yue Zhi were descended from the Tocharians of Xinjiang.

Not of Eastern Turkestan but of Gansu. We know that before the Xiongnu invasion, the Yuezhi lived in Gansu.

um.. ..actually.. do you guys know what actually
happened in the history of Xiongnu? well.. if you guys
do.. can you guys descibe it more in a specific
way..Please? because I'm doing a history project for
my school and I need alot of infomation.. and I can't
find any interesting information.. well.. thanks
anyways.. ><

What exactly do you want to know?

Xiong nu disappeared from the charts of the history and on the West appeared various names like Chionites, Chunni, Hun Horse Tribes, Alchoni, Camel Hun Tribes etc.

We should also note that Xiongnu's Ancient Chinese form was Hongnu, whereas a Soghdian letter from the 4th century describing the Xiongnu sacking of Luoyang names the Xiongnu as "Huns".

[IMG]http://img50.exs.cx/img50/6148/ger3.jpg">

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