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Scytho-Sarmatian
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Topic: Huns(Xiongnu), Turks(Tujue) and Mongols Posted: 28-Oct-2004 at 05:22 |
Thanks for your response.
If it were true that the Jats were descended from the Getae who were connected with the Alano-Sarmatian World, it would show just how wide ranging the Alan-Sarmatian World really was. The Sarmatian influence could be determined to have ranged clear across the Eurasian continent from Alanic Spain and even Britain (Roman-Sarmatian cavalry) through E. Europe and Central Asia up to the border of China and down into northwestern India. That would have made a pretty impressive empire had they been united.
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Rava
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Posted: 28-Oct-2004 at 04:52 |
Some conect Jat clans of India with the ethnonym Getae connecting with Alano-Sarmatian World. Generaly the term Sarmatians describe Royal Scythians and Ugri Tribe together whose dwelled in Panonia.
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Scytho-Sarmatian
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Posted: 28-Oct-2004 at 04:34 |
Rava-
I have a quick question for you which has been bothering me for a while. Do you know if any Sarmatians were included among the Sakas who had migrated to India? I have read some sources which state that the western Indian region of Saurashtra was named after the Sauromatae/Sarmatians. However, other sources state that the name Saurashtra means "land of the sun-worshippers." Still others say that Saurashtra means "land of the Solar Medes (Saurya Madra)," and they say that Sauromatae also means "Solar Medes." It's all a little confusing. However, it makes sense to me to say that Sarmatians did indeed end up in India, because the Sarmatians had become the dominant group amongst the Scythian peoples by this time (c. 100 BC). What do you think?
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Rava
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Posted: 28-Oct-2004 at 04:09 |
Yue Zhi i.e. Asi + Tochari forced Saka (Amyrgians) in Ferghana and Alai Valley. Some digs give evidence that only ruling class entered the Cities while the majority of people continued pastoral way of life. Part of Saka joined Yeu Zhi in their conquest of Bactria. Since the period of their stay in this part of Central Asia was relatively short perhaps the participation of the Sakas in the confederation gave the effect of iranization mentioned by Ishan.
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Scytho-Sarmatian
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Posted: 28-Oct-2004 at 03:40 |
Saka is the word which means "Scythian" in the Persian and Indian languages. The Sakas who entered India were originally centered in the area of the Aral Sea. Being nomads, they moved from pasture to pasture throughout the steppe region until the Yue Zhi forced them south, out of these grazing lands and into Bactria, and eventually western India. A large number of the Rajput peoples of India trace their ancestry to the Sakas.
Incidently, the Yue Zhi themselves were later forced out of the steppe region and into Bactria and India, following the same pattern as the Sakas. It is believed that the Yue Zhi were descended from the Tocharians of Xinjiang. Their greatest king in India was Kanishka, who ruled around 100 AD.
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warhead
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Posted: 27-Oct-2004 at 19:33 |
No, the Saka did, they were pushed out of Sungaria by the Yue Zhi and went south to destroy the Bactrian kingdom. The Yue Zhi came later and pushed out the Saka, when Zhang Qian went westwards, the Yue Zhi's base of operation was already around Bactria.
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Yiannis
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Posted: 26-Oct-2004 at 09:28 |
It was the Yuezhi that destroyed the Greek/Bactrian kingdoms, right?
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ihsan
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Posted: 26-Oct-2004 at 08:23 |
It's a known fact that the Kushans, a tribe of the Yuezhi, became Iranified in time
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Rava
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Posted: 26-Oct-2004 at 05:30 |
Ihsan wrote about Yuechji:
I don't think they were Iranic. They came from Gansu, a region near the Tarim Basin (land of the Tokharians). Besides, Greeks called them Tocharoi. The Yuezhi were more likely Tokharian.
It seems to be impossible to resolve the entire structure and genealogical relationships between steppe tribes of various ethnicity. The tribes were relatively small, divided into clans and verticaly stratificated (warriors, priests etc. ) and involved in many cultural and political patterns. To a great deal cultural symetry between Turks and Iranians existed as well. Therefore I can only recall Sims-Williams who translated Rabatak inscription written perhaps in the first year of Kanishka reign in Bactria : "He issued(?) an edict(?) in Greek and then he put it into the Aryan language". This would point out an eastern iranian language of Kushans since Kanishka used bactrian for his inscription. However... Turks used Sogdian script and Praktrit was court language in Kroraina Kingdom...
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Guests
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Posted: 26-Oct-2004 at 01:46 |
Thanks for the answers,everyone.
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ihsan
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Posted: 16-Oct-2004 at 12:37 |
The Wuhuan were a branch of the Donghu people, not the Xianbei.
Btw, I thought Xianbei were the ancestors of the Khitans
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cliveersknell
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Posted: 15-Oct-2004 at 23:47 |
The Wuhuan are a branch of Xianbei people that migrated from the Hulun Buir steppes to northern Liaoning , Jilin and
even Jehol, they eventually became the Qidan.
r's
Clive
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ihsan
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Posted: 15-Oct-2004 at 12:14 |
The Shiwei came from the Xianbei.
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warhead
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Posted: 15-Oct-2004 at 10:34 |
Both Xianbei and WuHuan are the same people in the past called Dong Hu, later after defeated by the xiongnu, they separated into two.
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Posted: 15-Oct-2004 at 09:05 |
I have questions here. Since everyone was saying that Xianbei was the direct ancestor of the Mongolian, so what about the Wuhuan tribe? I thought from the Wuhuan came Shiwei tribe and then from Shiwei came the Mongol or was Wuhuan considered part of the Xianbei tribe? And i heard people said that Xianbei was Tungusic people from Manchuria and was somehow related to Fuyu and Shuzhen tribes in Manchuria and Amur region, so which one was right then?
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Chono
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Posted: 15-Oct-2004 at 07:11 |
And they mined iron ore, not gold.
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ihsan
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Posted: 15-Oct-2004 at 03:50 |
Well, the Tujue were the vassals of the Ruanruan, not the Xiongnu
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cliveersknell
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Posted: 14-Oct-2004 at 23:59 |
Xiongnu - I think Chono is right here, they are composed of many different peoples including some Hans.
Mongols- Per Groussett, et al, they originated in the Hulun Buir grasslands east of the Xinggan Mountains, their direct ancestors are the Xianbei people.
Turks - Per Grousett, et al , they originated in the southern Altai Mts, they mined gold for the Xiongnu.
Correct me if I am wrong.
r's
Clive
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Chono
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Posted: 12-Oct-2004 at 15:34 |
Wow, you absolutely crushed my speculation.
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warhead
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Posted: 11-Oct-2004 at 16:09 |
"Song would destroy kokturks and mongols would destroy Tang, due to advances in technology and military organization."
Technology during this time changed little to alter anything of a decisive advantage; discipline, training, morale, experience, generalship, and tactics are the decisive factors, mongols during the begining of Genghis had little technological advantage over the Turuks, in fact it hasn't changed much until the 17th century. Nor did military organization alter in anyway, the decimal system of organization persisted in Mongolia since the days of Mao dun, while Tang military organization and logistic planning isn't anyway inferior to Song. Song did improve greatly on the crossbow but Tang more than made up for it by its superior abundance of cavalry and experienced troops.
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