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Huns(Xiongnu), Turks(Tujue) and Mongols

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  Quote mhtoi163 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Huns(Xiongnu), Turks(Tujue) and Mongols
    Posted: 24-Feb-2013 at 02:26
I'm really interested in Xiongnu. I read that they don't have literature.What I want to really say is that may be Kachin tribes of Burma would be likely related with southern Xiongnu.I am Kachin and we have no literature before the missionaries from America came.We have a story about wars with Chinese and we had to fled to Northern Burma which was mostly areas of Shan which is really related to Thai in my opinion.
a;So, I would like to ask that is it possible that we and Xiongnu might be related?

b;Is there any characteristics about Xiongnu? Do they have somekind of unique dance?

c;How did they bury the dead people?

We got literature just for about a century ago,by the way.Smile
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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2005 at 17:38
About the Tokharians: http://www.oxuscom.com/eyawtkat.htm
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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2005 at 17:37
Well I've seen many internet sources saying that the Yuezhi (Ye-chih) were Iranic but in fact they were Tokharians. I don't know what makes those people thingk that the Tokharian Yuezhi were Iranic
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2005 at 14:43
the easternmost group of indo-europeans
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  Quote Sikander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2005 at 17:16

 Huuuummm, I also thought that the Yue Chi, or Kushan, where Iranic, but now you tell me that they where Tocharians, i.e., not iranic.... so, who where the Tocharians?

Sikander

 

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  Quote Koltigin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2005 at 18:01

Hi Everybody,

I am a new user, and the amount of information presented in this discussion has JUST AMAZED ME!

I want to thank you all for such a nice thread. I am quite interested in the origins of Turks and the diversion of language families in the steppes of Middle Asia. Being very poorly-informed on the issue compared to you guys , instead of babling here, I would like to ask for some suggestions as to what to read on the topic.

I'd greatly appreciate the names of books or authors on Turks or Turkic languages if you can give me couple of them.

Thanks all,

Murat.

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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2005 at 16:05
Attila the Hun
 
I had some reservation as to the true nature of the Huns who invaded Europe. The popular history account says that Western Huns pushed their way into Europe after being pressured by the Ruruan or Rouran (Juan-Juans). http://www.fernweb.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/mf/people.htm claimed that the Huns "went north-west in search of new homes. They found their way into the valley of the Volga and, in the second half of the 4th Century, attacked the Alans (a people related to the Sarmatians, who lived between the Volga and the Don). After routing the Alans, they then went on to conquer the Ostrogoths and drive the Visigoths westwards." (Sarmatians, famous for the female warriors who had a tradition of ironing out one nipple of baby girls at birth, could be the so-called 'N Guo', i.e., women statelet.)
 
From AD 91 to 4th-5th century, the traces of the Western Huns were unknown to Chinese records. On record would be the stories of Ruruan [Rou-ran] and Nie-ban. In my opinion, the Ruruans were more Hunnic than those peoples they pushed out. In the
Turk/Uygur section, we covered the Ruruan origin and their absorbing remnant Huns and Gao-che people. Western records showed the Attila Huns were extermely barbaric, unlike their Asian kinsmen who, after hundreds of years of co-living with Chinese and generations of inter-marriages with the Chinese, had become very much a semi-sedentary civilized quazi-Chinese.
 
During the second major Hunnic split of AD 89, the Chanyu of Northern Huns fled westward to the ancient Kang-chu Statelet, after they were defeated by General Dou Xian and Dou's Southern Hun allies at Jiluoshan Mountains. In AD 91, General Dou Xian mounted another deadly campaign against the Northern Huns. Northern Huns hence began a migration that would lead to the chain reaction to the West. Scholar Luo Xianglin stated that the Huns split into two groups: Ye-da [White Huns] posing threat to Sassanian Dynasty to the northeast of today's Iran, and western offshoot moving to south of Ural Mountain. Luo Xianglin further stated that the Western Huns, under Balamir, due to a famine, relocated towards Europe in AD 372, conquering Eastern Goths and driving away Western Goths. Balamir, after conquering the territories north of Danube, received the tributes from Roman Emperor. Balamir's son would be Attila who, with 700000 army, campaigned against East Roman Empire in AD 447 and attacked Western Roman Empire in AD 450. (Western Roman Emperor Odoacer was driven off by the Goths in AD 476.)
 
Nie-Ban Huns
In the west, the descendants of those Huns would set up a country called Nie-Ban (a word that was used for Nirvana), and the Nie-ban Huns despised the Ruruans for their hygiene. The Huns thought they were much more civilized than the Ruruan. This is especially true of the Southern Huns who had been relocated to the Hetao Areas or the Ordos Plains.
 
The timing of the Hunnic western thrust in 4th century AD does not conform to the Hunnic Empire splitting in 51 BC or 89 AD. Western history books said that the Hunnic empire split into two hordes in 51 BC, with the Eastern Horde subject to China. The western Huns they referred to here must belong to Hunnic 'Chanyu Zhizhi' who, around 53 BC, hearing that 'Huhanye Chanyu' obtained the support of the Han Chinese, sent his son to Han Court as a hostage as well. Zhizhi, being afraid of Han for his killing Han emissary, later relocated to the west, namely, the ancient Jiankun Statelet. This relocation also had to do with the request from Kangju king who intended to attack the Wusun Statelet with Huns' assistance. Then governor-general Gan Yansou answered the call from Wusun and sent 6 columns of armies to defeat Kangju and 'Zhizhi Chanyu'. Zhizhi's descendants would later call themselves the Kirghiz, a mutation in the pronunciation of 'Zhizhi'.
 
In AD 48, the Hunnic Empire formally dissolved due to internal fights. In Chinese records, two groups of Huns would be known, Southern Huns and the Northern Huns. Around AD 89, General Dou Xian, under the order of his empress sister, led a huge army comprising of armies from Beijing area and the Southern Hun allies, had a decisive battle with the Northern Huns at Jiluoshan Mountains. Han army chased the Huns deep into the northwest territories, defeated 81 Hunnic tribes, and captured over 200 thousand Huns. History of the Northern Dynasties recorded that the Chanyu of Northern Huns fled westward to the ancient Kang-chu Statelet, while the remaining weak and elder Huns relocated to the north of the Chouci Statelet. Scholar Luo Xianglin stated that in AD 91 [3rd year of Empror Hedi's Yonghe Era], General Dou Xian mounted another deadly campaign against the Northern Huns. Northern Huns hence began a migration that would lead to the chain reaction to the West.
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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 22:46
The Hun tribes, or as the Chinese called them the Xiongnu or Xiongnu stemmed basically from the Siberian branch of the Mongolian race. During the third and second centuries BCE they rose to great power and became a tribal confederation. During Emperor Mo-tun reign (208-175 BCE), the Xiongnu were at the zenith of their might and occupied a huge territory from Lake Baikal on the north to the Ordos plateau on the south and the Liao River on the east. By 55-34 BCE their political influence reached as far as the lower Volga and the Ureal foothills. This expansion westwards significantly increased the trade with the western world. The trade route was leading now from the west through the northern oasis of east Turkestan to the Xiongnus' headquarters in north Mongolia and southward to north China.

The basis of the Xiongnus' economy was herding, mostly pastoral nomads who lived in felt-cobbled tents, using bow and arrow from horseback. By the first century BCE there were also large settled populations with well-developed agriculture of millet, barley and wheat. The production of crafts flourished as wll, iron and bronze was smelted in their workshops and fine tools, weaponry, household utensils, jewelry and ceramics were produced.

Chinese sources inform us that the Xiongnu worshiped the sun, moon, heaven, earth, and to their ancestors. They had shamans or medicine men who had great influence over the tribesmen. The horse played a leading role in the herder's migration, hunting and war. In special ceremonies they sacrificed white horses and drank the blood. When a man died his widows were married either to a younger brother or a son. When a great chief died, concubines and retainers were often killed and buried with him. The Xiongnu apparently had no writing. It is believed that they spoke one of the Turkic languages (Guniley, 1960, pp. 48-49; Meanchen-Helfen, 1973, pp. 376-443). However, the question of language is far from being resolved.

During the newly established Chinese Han dynasty (AD 206-220), China expanded its borders and the Xiongnu empire lost ground. Weakened by the loss of men and animals because of their constant battles, and the split by internal dissension, the tribes of the confederation began one by one to accept a position of vassalage under China. The northern Xiongnu moved from Outer Mongolia into what was than Dzaungaria, where they conquered a new but short lived empire. With the beheading of their leader by a Chinese army the group disappeared from history.

The southern Xiongnu, who replaced their northern kindred in Outer Mongolia, remained at peace with China for some years. With the turn of the Christian Era these Xiongnu extended their power west into Dzungaria and reasserted their independence from China, although some tribes along the borderlands remained vassals of the Chinese and served as buffers against their independent kinsmen. In the first of this millenium the Hsien Pei, a Tungusic or Mongol people, appeared north of China and conquered Mongolia, forcing the independent Xiongnu into Dzungaria. A century later the Hsien Pei also gained control of Dzungaria. The Xiongnu who had remained on the borders of China lingered on in history until the fifth century. Those who were forced out of Dzungaria by the Hsien Pei disappeared from notice in A.D. 170.

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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2005 at 14:48
My course teacher once said 60% of it is still accurate.
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  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2005 at 00:26
Originally posted by ihsan

That is even weirder, so he contradicts with his Empire of the Steppes


enjoy thumbing through this book, it is so out of date..
it must be. I wonder overall, what percentage of it is accurate.
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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2005 at 00:13
Yes, the Wusun most probably only had western sungaria
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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2005 at 12:49
The word Gunna is not avaible in Turkic inscriptions. In Old Turkic, words don't start with "G/Gh".
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  Quote Rava Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2005 at 09:07

In one of interesting linguistic books I have found following iranian influence present in slavonic languages:

gunja, primary meaning probably ' fur coat, plaid'. Old russian gnja, ukrainian hnja, polish gunia, bulgarian gnja, serbo-croatian gûnj.

Probably its from old iranian: *gauna-, awestan.: gaōna -"Hair".

We know that for the Persians the term Xyōn was generalized as "nomad tribe from the North" and there were some following waves of the conquerors. In Avestan texts these nomads were called H'yaona. Could somebody tell me if the avestan word H'yaona is identical with gaōna ? We also know that in some turkic inscriptions the word Hun appeared in form Gunna. What do you think of this thesis. Huns as the nomads using saddle cloths, wool plaids or something like that.

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  Quote therecanbeonlywar! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2005 at 19:51
Ok. I am actually "newuser". I was typing the reply at school today and when I logged on to my school account and went online to AE, I was logged on to AE already as "newuser" (for some unknown reason), whoever created that account (maybe I forgot that it was my account, dunno). For the sake of convenience, I just used that username and typed in my reply.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2005 at 13:03

Originally posted by warhead

The primary sources listed come from Shi Ji, the Sakas are known as the Se in Chinese. They were first pushed out by the Wusun and later the Yue Shi. Nothing more is recorded other than greek record at the same time recording the sakas overruning the Greco Bactrian kingdoms. So the Se in all probability is the same people as the Sakas which the Greek and chinese record of geography seem to confirm and its already quite established in the historical society.

Most sources I've encountered state that the Sae peoples (I do not doubt they were most likely Saka tribes) originally lived in the territory that were later dominated by the Wu Sun, an area encompassing the Ili River Valley and the Issyk-Kul region. They were later driven out of the area circa 177/176 BC by invading Da (Major) Yue Zhi from Gansu, causing some Sakas to cross the Hindu Kush while some migrated to Bactria. Later, the Wu Sun came and drove out the Major Yue Zhi circa 130 BC, causing them to migrate to the Amu Darya valley, as ch.123 in the Shiji describes. Primary sources like the Han Shu place the Wu Sun capital 8,900 li from Chang'an, so it was, as Wylie estimates, probably around Kulja, east of Lake Issyk-Kul, or could have been around modern Karakol. The Wu Sun could have controlled small parts of the Dzungar Basin in the far west but probably not the majority of it.

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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2005 at 20:39

"Really? Care to elaborate more on the Sakas of Dzungaria? I haven't encountered any sources (at least online) that directly say the Sakas controlled territories in Dzungaria. The kurgans in the Altai area were similar to the Scythians culturally but they were technically not Scythians, at least not racially."

 

The primary sources listed come from Shi Ji, the Sakas are known as the Se in Chinese. They were first pushed out by the Wusun and later the Yue Shi. Nothing more is recorded other than greek record at the same time recording the sakas overruning the Greco Bactrian kingdoms. So the Se in all probability is the same people as the Sakas which the Greek and chinese record of geography seem to confirm and its already quite established in the historical society.

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  Quote therecanbeonlywar! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2005 at 19:58

Originally posted by warhead

No, the Saka did, they were pushed out of Sungaria by the Yue Zhi and went south to destroy the Bactrian kingdom. The Yue Zhi came later and pushed out the Saka, when Zhang Qian went westwards, the Yue Zhi's base of operation was already around Bactria.

Really? Care to elaborate more on the Sakas of Dzungaria? I haven't encountered any sources (at least online) that directly say the Sakas controlled territories in Dzungaria. The kurgans in the Altai area were similar to the Scythians culturally but they were technically not Scythians, at least not racially.



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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2004 at 17:48
The real Huns couldn't have been Mongolic, there are no evidences to proove that.
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  Quote capcartoonist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2004 at 15:56

The Xiongnu were driven into the central steppes.  The Huns later appeared out of the central steppes.  It is assumed, though not proven, that the Huns descended from the Xiongnu.

As for the makeup of the Hunnish people, it was a catch-all for everyone they came in contact with.  Mongolian features and dialects, Turks, Finns (!), Goths, and what-all.  The Hunnish core was probably Mongolic-Turkic (or Altaic, if you like), which is probably what the Xiongnu were orginally. 

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  Quote Dayanhan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2004 at 04:35

Originally posted by cliveersknell

The Wuhuan are a branch of Xianbei people that migrated from the Hulun Buir steppes to northern Liaoning , Jilin and
even Jehol, they eventually became the Qidan.

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That's a very interesting idea. Where did you get this idea?

But, in so far as I remember, Kitan's did not related themseves to Ohaan (Wuhuan).

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