Plato`s Atlantis

Maju another clue.

Timaeus

Whereas just when you and other nations are beginning to be provided with letters and the other requisites of civilized life, after the usual interval, the stream from heaven, like a pestilence, comes pouring down, and leaves only those of you who are destitute of letters and education; and so you have to begin all over again like children, and know nothing of what happened in ancient times, either among us or among yourselves.

There were no letters before the Greek and Phoenician alphabet.

The dark ages. 

I should have said before the greeks adopted the phoenician alphabet.

docyabut,    the kingdom of Atlantis had 1200 battle ships, not 12000, according to Plato. And nowhere is written, that they have attacked Athens with these 1200 ships.  To find wrecks of ships from this early times seems to be very difficult. The oldest known ship wreck is that of Uluburun/Turkey, a merchant ship of 1200 BC, 15 m long (I saw the exhibition of the findings in Bochum/Germany 3 months ago) with a load of 9 tons of copper bars and 1 ton of tin bars, exactly the right relation for melting bronze.

Maju, you wrote:  > As far as I recall, the war between "Athens" and Atlantis is placed in Atlantis, not in the Med.<  

This is not correct. Plato wrote nothing about the place of the war, but it is obvious that the Atlanteans attacked the Athenians, when he wrote:[Tim24e] " For it is related in our records how once upon a time your State stayed the course of a mighty host, which, starting from a distant point in the Atlantic ocean, was insolently advancing to attack the whole of Europe, and Asia to boot." (Bury)

> The "Athenians" had won already when the catastrophe happened.<

This is correct. But it is not possible that the 20000 warriors from Athens had won against the whole Atlantean army of 1,2 millions and 1200 ships.  They probably won against a smaller expedition corps, and before the Atlanteans could come back with their whole army, the narrated catastrophe occured.

>I'm more inclined to consider this a colonial intervention of Greece rather than a real menace from Atlantis, though we can't know if, in the course of events, the Atlanteans may have launched some sort of naval expedition. <      The latter is, what I am thinking

> I was wildly speculating with the misterious Hycksos (17th century BCE) but the lack of chariots in Iberia at that time is a clear indication that there is no connection <

In Libya, which was under the rule of Atlantis according to the above mentioned quote, were found a lot of rock engravings from early times showing horse-driven chariots.  According to Plato, Atlantis had 10000 chariots in its army.

No. Along the last two centuries there's been much wild speculation about Basque, connecting it to the most unlikely "relatives", from Caucasic languages to Berber and many others, from Sumerian to whatever you can imagine.

Nevertheless, apart of Ancient Aquitanian, which was beyond any reasonable doubt a Basque language, our tongue remais and isolate. It must be said though, that some suggest that Biscainne and Souletin dialects are actually spearate tongues, regarding the central core, as much as French and Spanish or German and Danish. Speculatively these dialects would correspond to ancient larger branches that can be grossly defined as Cantabrian and Pyrennean respectively. At least in the Pyrennees there's wide evidence that the language was spoken in historic times as far east as Andorra.

Who knows? From the archaeological evidence it does seem that there is a continuity Magdalenian - post-Magdalenian - Atlantic Neolithic - Atlantic Chalcolithic - Atlantic Bronze Age, Megalithism included. But it's difficult to say with certitude.

Only vestigial and historical toponimy can help us in that. My own belief is that it was that way and that languages of the Basque family were widely spoken from Portugal to Denmark (and maybe in an even wider area) before IE invasions. But I can't prove it.

Regarding SW Iberia, one major uncertainty is that Andalusian neolithic seems foreign in origin (North African?) and that this culture influenced the SW, including what would later be VNSP.

In this regard, what we think we know about the ancient Tartessian language spoken and written in the SW, yields a language that doesn't seem related to anything we know. Yet, we don't know if this was the language of Atlantis-VNSP or if it was a later introduction in the times of the Bronze Age "horizons".

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke.

He could have introduced them all through the story as the Athenians.

Hello to all. 

I am Spanish, of Madrid, and hardly one week ago I had the honor to personally know Mr. Georgeos Diaz-Montexano, and in this conference (that is first from its disease) I could not see no indication that allows to maintain that false accusation of the Maju member of which Mr. Diaz-Montexano is only interested in the money.  In fact in the more than two hours and average that the public debate lasted it mentioned neither a single time the word money nor nothing that it had to do with it, when he had even been perfectly natural, that had taken advantage of the opportunity which were presents several political personalities, and several millionaires. 

I always do not understand why whenever encounter a forum where it discusses on Atlantis and somebody dares to mention the name of Mr. Georgeos Diaz, anybody that defends another theory (as it is the case, now, of Maju) it is tried to discredit to Mr. Diaz-Montexano with detrimental commentaries or false accusations. 

Perhaps their theories, discoveries, and arguments cannot be refuted, without going to disqualify and to criticize their person?.  Whatever he reads numeross articles published by Diaz-Montexano, or their collaborators, he can state that Diaz-Montexano always has defended that Atlantis is a Ibero-Mauretano empire of the Bronze Age, that had its center of being able or capital main (the Acropolis) in some point of the coasts of Iberia or Morocco, but always closely together of Gibraltar, proque the Diaz-Montexano has demonstrated (through the direct readout of texts of the oldest codices, written in Greek and Latin, who know themselves) that in the Timaeus and the Critias can be read of very precise way that the island-akropolis of Atlantis (where was the capital)  one was, exactly before, alongside, joint to (in Greek PRO) of the Pillars of Hercules, in the same mouth of the Straits of Gibraltar.  Neither in the Critias nor in the Timaeus is used nor single time the Greek word that allows to say that Atlantis were "beyond", or "outside", or "far from", the Pillars of Hercules.  Therefore, according to the Timaeus and the Critias, the capital or the Acropolis of Atlantis never can have been in no place near Lisbon, because these places are "beyond", "far from", the Pillars of Hercules, and Plato never says this. 

As it very scientifically demonstrates to Mr. Diaz-Montexano (through the Lexicography, the Greek grammar, and the Classic Greek Philology) in the Timaeus and the Critias is PRO (in, before, join to) of the Pillars of Hercules, and near to the region of Gadeira (Gades, Cadiz), and never is used PERAN, META ("beyond ", "far from", "outside"), to locate to the island-akropolis of Atlantis.

Sincere greetings.

---------

The Scientific Atlantis. The Atlantis of Plato from the controversy and the scientific rigor.

Hispanic-Cuban investigator sends a new book on the Atlantis from a scientific optics. One is paleographical, philological and documentary study deeper and extensive made to date.

/DiscoveryAtlantis.sytes.net/ The investigator
Georgeos Diaz-Montexano has recently published an
extensive work that gathers the work of investigation more extensive than it
exists on so looked for and to date not econtrada Atlantic civilization that
Plato it exactly denominated with the name of Atlantis and that disappeared
because of tsunami.

Diaz-Montexano has been able to reunite
to the greater amount of evidences and scientific datas of quality on the
Atlantis. He has been first in sending a scientific report to UNESCO on the
finding of possible archaeological rest discovered under waters of the Straits
of Gibraltar and the coasts of Andalusia in several points, from Barbate to
Cadiz and Huelva, defending before UNESCO that could be rest of the own not
looked for Atlantis or less - also without Tartessos success.

Not theory
exists at the moment other that can to reunite so many points that agrees with
the words or descriptions of Plato like that Hispanic-Cuban investigator
Georgeos defends Diaz-Montexano , who has managed to
settle down that the theory that he defends of Atlantis like an empire or
emporio Ibero-Moroccan (that also Jonas Berghman defends, for the African part),
is only that has the true probabilities of success in a future, more and more
next one.
This reality bothers or infuriates enough, on the one hand, to
which they create in other theories or in the masterful affirmations of
determined "spiritual" and by another one the most radical and nihilistas
skeptics than they fully deny until the right to investigate this historical
enigma.

As he exposes Georgeos well Diaz :
"... only a few points of which I have been able to verify and that they
sustain to my hypothesis and theory, would be enough to convince any rational,
serious person, who is not fanatical and who truely looks for the truth, she is
where she is, she is as she is and she falls that falls. They would be more than
sufficient to convince until most skeptical of the planet, at least of a fact,
that he is the following one: if Atlantis, like civilization, empire and a great
city or emporio, existed sometimes, if it really existed, it only can have been
between the southwest of Iberia or Spain and the northwest of Morocco... ",
because - according to this investigator the following points are
unquestionable:

1. The island or peninsula (in Greek ' NHSOS ') of
Atlantis was "of the side of", "next to" or "ahead" (in Greek ' PRO ') of the
Columns of Hercules (Gibraltar)

2. A region of the ' NHSOS' Atlantis was
called ' Gadeira (C�diz) and extended - or arrived until the same Columns of
Hercules (Gibraltar)

3. The ' NHSOS' Atlantis was next to the coasts of
the "arm of sea or gulf of the Atlantic" (in Greek ' ATLANTIKOU PELAGOS '),
present Gulf of Cadiz.

4. After passing the ' NHSOS' Atlantis, "other
islands" existed (in Greek ' ALLAS NHSOI'), "opposite and upwards", like it
needs in texts oldest writings in Greek and Latin. These islands would be the
Madeiras, Azores, the Islands Brita'nicas and Ireland, and had opposite, one
"terra company/signature" or continent (in Greek ' HPEIROS '), that could be
Greenland, or - although less probable part of Canada and North
America.

5. From the NHSOS Atlantis, located "above", "on" (in Greek
H�PER) or next to of the Columns of Hercules (Gibraltar), it affirms Plato that
went into by all the interior until arriving at the Thyrrenia and Asia, by the
part of Europe, whereas by the part of Africa (Libya), they did it until Libya
and Egypt; which confirms that the island or Atlantic peninsula or of Atlantis
was next to the Columns of Hercules, to the West of the Mediterranean, because
besides to be in that situation (as it affirms Plato), if we analyzed the
geographic logic, we observed that towards the east they are the towns of the
Mediterranean that colonized Atlantis and towards the west they are the other
islands (Madeiras, Canar�as, British, Ireland, Iceland, You embarrass, the
Caribbean, etc.) and after these islands is the continent (possibly Greenland
and part of Canada and the U.S.A.).

As he exposes well
Georgeos Diaz:

"... Everything fits with a so
evident logic that it is alarming that still exists people whom they do not love
to see these facts, that they demonstrate, of unquestionable way that - if
Atlantis existio ' - it only could be closely together of the Columns of
Hercules, between the southwest of Iberia and the northwest of Morocco. As far
as the location of the Acropolis, this would be in some point of the coast, very
near of the Columns of Hercules (Gibraltar), and to about fifty stages of the
coast, that is, to about 9 or 10 kilometers, according to precise Plato. He is
absurd to continue looking for Atlantis in no island of the interior of the
Mediterranean or in no other island of the outside of the Atlantic, and much
less in America or Indonesia. The data that offer Plato are unquestionable. If a
city really existed on which Plato would base his writing on the Atlantis, all
the indications aim towards an only direction: the triangle formed by the
Columns of Hercules (Gibraltar, Tariff, Barbate, Trafalgar), the region of
Gadeira (Cadiz, Huelva) and the region of the Atlas (Atlantic coast of Morocco).
The solution of the final mystery, that is to say, if the Acropolis or city of
Atlantis existed or did not exist, will only depend if it is discovered in the
coasts of Iberia or the coasts of Morocco, as also Jonas Berghman defends the
Swedish colleague... "

The Hispanic-Cuban investigator calls the
attention on other points described with absolute clarity in the story of Plato:


6. The Atlantes had a very old writing (deductible dates of the text,
from the 9000 to end of the Age of the Bronze). The tartessios have been the
only town of the antiquity (of all West of the old World) recognized to have the
system of writing, laws and treaties of greater antiquity of all Earth, nothing
less than 6000 years of the times of Estrabon, that is, for 8000
years.

7. An island or peninsula (NHSOS) that maintained contact (wars,
colonizations, etc.) with towns of the Mediterranean like the Greeks; therefore
they would have to be in the propose area as cradle of Atlantis Greek
unquestionable archaeological evidences of contact with the old ones.

8.
The main city or the Acropolis of Atlantis was in a circular island, near the
coast, surrounded by several concentric circular pits, where some canalized the
water of the sea and from the center of the island to the outside, that is,
until the sea, there was a straight channel.

Points 1, 2, 3, mentioned 4
and 5 above - aims Georgeos Diaz - "... force
to watch at an only area of all the planet earth, the included/understood one by
the island or the Iberian Peninsula, Gibraltar, Cadiz and the Atlas (Morocco)...
"

Point 6 also forces to us to watch towards Iberia, because of all West
of the Mediterranean, Iberia is the only NHSOS (isla/pen�nsula) where attests a
writing almost as old as the one of the Atlantis. What added to the four
previous points it discards the mere chance completely.

Point 7 also
forces to direct the glance to us towards Iberia, because it is the only
peninsula or great island located in the extreme West of the Mediterranean, next
to the Columns of Hercules (Gibraltar), with a called region Gadeira and next to
the Atlas (Morocco) that in addition maintained real contacts with the Greek
world.

On point 8 it is necessary to emphasize that, also in Iberia, it
is where only have been physical tests - in this case, architectonic and
archaeological of the existence of at least two cities with this same scheme
that were founded on the Age of Cobre and that lasted until end of the Age of
the Bronze, the one in Ja�n and other in Madrid.

On the other hand, in
Iberia it has also appeared the greater concentration of all the planet of
identical symbolic reasons to the scheme of Atlantis of several concentric ring
with a channel that leaves from the center and that arrives until the outside of
the ring, present in the petroglifos and the decorations of Iberian Tart�sicas
ceramics and.

Although these 8 points would be enough by themselves, we
can consider other less important, as also it indicates Diaz-Montexano
the historical traditions and legend about the Atlantis and the
Atlanteans and until a genealogy of kings Atlanteans (put in doubt by some)
present in the historiography until the medieval times, have not been only
registered in the Iberian Peninsula.

Georgeos Diaz-Montexano
considers a serious investigator who follows a method and an own
methodology. It follows, or rather "it persecutes" - as the same one emphasizes
the scientific method. Others prefer to follow esoteric, ufol�gico, xenogen�tico
the method extraterrestrial; the nihilista or radical esc�pticismo, etc.
Everyone must right to use the method that considers agreed more with its
intellectual or spiritual level. It is a right of all the human
beings.

If somebody prefers to believe more in extraterrestrial Von
D�niken and its hypotheses to draw its conclusions on the Atlantis before to
guide itself by the work deeper than never it is made on the Plato's Atlantis,
from the oldest sources known written in Greek, Latin and Egyptian, and in the
geographic tests, topon�micas, geologic, sismol�gicas and archaeological, that
appear exposed in the investigations of Georgeos Diaz well , it is
in its right, and all we must respect that right, although we do not agree. We
like or no, thus she works the search of the knowledge. Everyone decides like
looking for the truth.

Summarizing: these simple points gathered in the
Pack-Ebook of the "Scientific Atlantis" of Georgeos the Diaz-Montexano
, demonstrate that the most correct theory, the one than adjusts to the
truth, is more the one who defend the Swedish Jonas Berghman and the
Hispanic-Cuban Georgeos Diaz-Montexano , in relation to Atlantis
like a kingdom or emporio Ibero-Mauritano of the Age of the Bronze, whose heart
or central axis it was in the Columns of Hercules (Gibraltar), and who would
succumb before the impact of great tsunami, preceded of several earthquakes...
but already says it will:

"there is no worse blind
person, who this that does not want to see"

I think Majo�s theory and that of Georgeos Diaz-Montexano are not so far away from each other. Both think that Atlantis or at least its central part was in Iberia. Plato spoke of 10 kingdoms in Atlantis. One could have been near Gibraltar and Cadiz, one around Mount Atlas in Morocco (or it was the same on both sides of the Straits), another in the region of the rich copper and silver mines of Sierra Morena in the region Huelva-Sevilla-Cordoba (this eventually became later, after the destruction of Atlantis, the kingdom of Tartessos), and one could have been the region round Lisbon (king Elasippos), today Portugal. All these regions were parts of Atlantis, therefore it is not necessary to struggle about the exact location of the Royal city of Atlantis with the three circular canals, as long as it is not detected - under the sea or on land. 

When the Royal city of Atlantis was flooded due to an earthquake and a following tsunami, it did not sink very deep under water, because after its disappearance it left a shoal mud. In the millenia since the flooding, the land was rising again, and the place where the city was, could well be on land now, hidden and covered with a thick layer of mud and later sand dunes. The canal built in Greece by Xerxes in 480BC was recently detected under 15 meters of mud.

Scientific investigations show, that in the region around the Gulf of Cadiz, where the African Plate moves northward and presses against the Eurasian Plate, some coastal regions are uplifting in a complicated tectonic process . E.g. the city of San Fernando south of Cadiz is situated on a hill, which was pressed upwards by a diapiric process. In our time the velocity of the uplift was measured near Gibraltar to be 1,5 mm/year, but in the past it might have been still greater:

Gracia et al. : "Rapid coastal diapiric uplift in Cadiz Bay" 

http://www.dsm.unile.it/Bacheca/IGCP437FinalConference/Abstr actBook/Gracia113_116.pdf

On the other hand, such a diapiric uplift followed by partial erosion of the softer bended-up sediment layers could lead to form a natural multi-ring-structure round a hill (existing example: Guelb er Richat in Mauretania), http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/images.p hp3?img_id=9319    http://www.image-contrails.de/mauritania/mauritania-met-rich at-1.html  as Plato had described it for the circular canals of the Royal city of Atlantis, produced by Poseidon, that means by natural forces. I wrote about this possible process in my paper for the International Atlantis Conference 2005 in Milos:

http://www.atlantis-schoppe.de/richter.pdf