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Plato`s Atlantis

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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Plato`s Atlantis
    Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 10:16

 Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits.

Maju could this nation of VNSP have ruled the seas all the way to Egypt, and is there any real evidence of their presence in these regions?

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 11:47
Not really. Yet the macro-culture known as Megalithism (religion?) of which I can speculate of this nation being a major center did extend for all those areas. Even if Megalithism in the Mediterranean was for the most part tardy in comparison to the Atlantic, it did reach Italy and North Africa. I haven't studied this in depth but Corso-Sardinian Megalithism seems to be of about 1500 BCE.

This map will give you an idea of the cultural and possibly political influence of VNSP (it's just an approximat draft I did in a rush for the occasion):



Over a 1900 BCE cultural map I painted the extension of VNSP commercial influence c. 1900 BCE (thick orange line), the approximate outer borders of Western Megalithism c. 1500 (thin orange line) and the area without Megalithism c. 1500 in Iberia (purple line). VNSP is represented by an orange dot and El Argar is represented by a purple dot.

Anyhow I think that claiming that VNSP controlled all those regions like an empire is dreaming awake: an exaggeration of the Egyptian historians. But I don't discard that even as late as c. 1500-1300 its cultural influence could be strong in all the Megalithic area - though Megalithism as such was weaker after 1900.

I think that is Pliny who records a religious ceremony still done in Roman times at the Cape of St. Vincent, caled then Holy Cape, which is the westernmost place in Europe: pilgrims carried libations to the place and priests did some stone-revolving ceremonies, all apparently associated with the setting Sun. At night it was taboo to be there, as it was supposed that the gods took over the place. It might well be that Portugal was a sacred center for the ancients, and that may have been related with the origins of Megalithism in that region and the prominent role played by VNSP, as leader of the Western nations.

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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 19:37

 We are close on where this land,or city could have been. however different on the timeline. What is really interesting are the ten tombs you refering to.Do you have anymore info?  Plato`s five set of  twins could have been dynasties. As Plato said they were not the real names  and twins also means together in strenght.

Timaeus

 Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits; and then, Solon, your country shone forth, in the excellence of her virtue and strength, among all mankind. She was pre-eminent in courage and military skill, and was the leader of the Hellenes. And when the rest fell off from her, being compelled to stand alone, after having undergone the very extremity of danger, she defeated and triumphed over the invaders, and preserved from slavery those who were not yet subjugated, and generously liberated all the rest of us who dwell within the pillars. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea.

 

 Also this whats makes think it was Mainke the priest was telling of , since it was a  Greek seaport close to the  Tarrtesso that sank. And the greeks did win this battle

 

Battle of Alalia (?)

A battle with no official name, before the death of Arganthonios, the Greeks and a fleet of Etruscan and Carthaginian ships fought off the coast of Alalia. The Greeks with 90 ships and the Etruscans and Carthaginians with 120. The Greeks won the battle but lost 40 ships and lost dominance in the western Mediterranean.

The capital was surrounded and its walls demolished. When the capital fell the city and the empire sank into the Guadalquivir river. Mainake, the Greek colony which protected Tartessia from Carthage, also sank.

The Greeks compared Tartessia to Atlantis and Hesperides and possibly Tartessia was Atlantis. Hearing all these rumours about silver, good life, and luxury, the Greeks named the isolated west Isles of the Blessed, Tartessos.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arganthonios

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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 22:32

What also makes think it is the story of Tartesso, Herodotus is the only author before Plato to write of the western cities of Tarttesso , Manike and of this war. All the rest came after Plato. Plato must have study Herodoutus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 07:37
Here is my apprximation to how my "Atlantis" would be in the regional context and locally at its apogee (c. 2000 BCE):


Notice that at this point and later too, Western Andalusia is just scarce on findings: it would seem scarcely populated and uncivilized. Andarax is the name of the river at which Los Millares stood, I like it as tentative ancient name, as it sounds Basque.



Here you can see the towns (black dots, the large square is Zambujal, the capital), the approximate limit of VNSP (thick pink line), the ten "royal tombs" (red "houses": flat ones are "artificial caves" and pointed ones "tholoi type") and the speculative limits of the ten sub-kingdoms (thin pink lines). Notice that not all the towns were active at the same time necessarily (they may be from different periods).

Also notice that, in the Bronze Age all southern realms and "the marks" became gradually an uncivilized tribal area, whose limited findings (tombs mostly) exapanded gradually northwards. The tombs are mostly cists with a bronze knife as typical finding but a few ones are much more outstanding: three stone open circles, bracing each other in a shape called grabsystem, unique of this area and time but that could resemble Mycenean circle tombs.

I must mention that the concept of "tholos" as tomb and the shape of Minoan/Mycenean "tholoi" may have been imported from Iberia, where it was older than in the Aegean. There are older eastern tholoi in Cyprus and Tell Halaf but they were used as homes and were of a different shape mostly (without tumulus, more pronounced conic shape).

The main problem with East-West Mediterranean relations is not the lack of cultural influences but the lack of material imports. Only in the Bronze Age we find a few beads of Egyptian or Minoan origin in the Levante. This could point to a very limited trade between the two areas before the Bronze Age and the "Hellenization" of El Argar, still I suspect that Minoan Crete must have kept some relationship with Los Millares and later with early El Argar before being conquered by the Greeks. And I suspect it was in this process when "tholoi" tombs migrated West->East (independently of any possible "tholoi" basic idea migrating East->West from Cyprus possibly much earlier).

I would outline a chronology (with some refrence dates for other geographies):
  • 6th milennium: Andalusian Neolithic
  • c. 5000: Neolithic arrives to the SW
  • c. 4800: Developement of earliest Megalithism
  • c. 4700: Mediterranean Neolithic arrives at Eastern Iberia
  • 3800-3000: Megalithism expands by the Atlantic, maybe with cod fishermen
    • 3500-3000 early IE expansion in Eastern and Central Europe
  • 3000-2600 BCE: Early Chalcolithic. Possible eastern influences favoring the developement of two civilizations in SE and SW Iberia. Commercial relations with far North and South. First "royal tombs" of neo-Megalithic style.
  • 2600-2150 BCE: Two civilizations with fortified towns, some of them of considerable size, arise in the SE (Los Millares) and SW (VNSP). Megalithism expands into southern Iberia.
    • C. 2600: Cycladian culture in the Aegean.
    • C. 2400: Corded Ware culture: major IE expansion. Denmark and Germany lost to IEs.
  • 2150 BCE: Arrival of Bell-Beaker.
  • 2100-1900 BCE: Apogee of VNSP inside the Bell-beaker commercial context.
    • C. 2000: possible date for Greeks migrating into Greece
  • 1900-1800 BCE: Diversification of Bell-Beaker styles, other centers compete with VNSP.
  • 1800-1500 BCE: Los Millares supplanted by nearby El Argar, which resembles a centralized state of relative large extension. Bronze Age with center at El Argar. First "cultural horizons" of the difuse "grabsystem people" in the SW. Formation of Cogotas I sepherd culture in the Plateau.
    • C. 1800: Apogee of Minoan Crete (Palaces' phase)
    • C. 1600: conquest of Crete by Mycenean Greeks (Cnossos' phase). Start of Mycenean period.
  • 1500-1300 BCE: El Argar B: Hellenization of burial customs, Eastern beads found at nearby "Levante" region (Iberians), military colonization of La Mancha (Motillas), greater expansion of the "grabsystem people" around VNSP.
    • C. 1450: Thera explosion.
  • C. 1300 BCE: Celtic invasion in the NW (Urnfields). Abandonement of the VNSP cities, disgregation of El Argar in smaller city-states. Begining of the Atlantic Bronze complex. Tartessos is possibly founded a little later.
    • C. 1200: Sea Peoples break lose over the Eastern Mediterranean. Start of the Dark Ages.
    • C. 1100: Troy conquered. Phoenicians found Gadir and Carthague (claimed dates). 


Edited by Maju

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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 08:39

Maju, this could be the area where the ten kings originated from.

 All these and their descendants for many generations were the inhabitants and rulers of divers islands in the open sea; and also, as has been already said, they held sway in our direction over the country within the Pillars as far as Egypt and Tyrrhenia.

  Arganthonios`s Tartesso and empire were the  many generations.

I  believe the egyptains were refering  to what is now spain as a island for this map of 300 bc is all they knew.

 

http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/Ancient%20Web%20Pages/111.ht ml

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 15:13
I think they didn't have clear the geography of the region and called  some peninsulas as islands. If they never sailed north of VNSP area they would not know for sure that it was a peninsula. Also it is initially called a "perirruthos", what is more undefined: it gives the impression of island but could be a peninsula as well.

They knew that Spain wasn't an island and I doubt they knew it was a peninsula because I don't think that the Mediterraneans adventured in the open Ocean before the Phoenicians. That's why it was so important to secure the land route of tin for El Argar and that's why the Motillas were built and how Bronze arrived to the Plateau and Galicia before it did to VNSP.



Above: Map showing the possible tin routes +/- controlled by El Argar and VNSP. The military colonization of Las Motillas and the extension of Bronze tech can have no other explanation in my understanding than a conflict between the two main civilizations of the area, where the easiest option for El Argar and their hypothetical Greek allies was to secure a route by land never controlling the naval route which remained in the hands of VNSP till the end (c. 1300).

Tin at that time held as much strategical importance as oil or uranium may have now. Copper instead was much more aboundant but one of the richest regions in tin seems to be NW Iberia and SW Britain, and that attracted Bronze Age adventurers from foreign lands surely.

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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 23:51

Maju, I really like your Atlantis.  It would fit the ten kingdoms, however what do you make of this portion of land (facing the country which is now called the region of Gades in that part of the world)?

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/critias.html

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/timaeus.html

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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 00:10
Would you point out where Gades would have been your map.  I am a little confused , is the area of VNSP located by the now  called Guadalquivir river or is it much higher up?
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 04:19
Originally posted by docyabut

Would you point out where Gades would have been your map.  I am a little confused , is the area of VNSP located by the now  called Guadalquivir river or is it much higher up?


Sure:



I have marked the eventual location of Gadir as a red square and the area of possible location of Tartessos as a black ellipse. Notice that they weren't there then but would only appear at least 4 centuries later. Actually Gadir is not confirmed archaelogically before 800 BCE (but Phoenicians claimed the 12th century as date of its foundation, more than 3 centuries before).

Notice also that Phoenicians actually exploited the vaccuum caused by Greek Dark Ages and they are probably a by-product of Sea Peoples' invasions. There were no Phoenicians as such before 1200 BCE, just Canaanites.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 04:28
Originally posted by docyabut

Maju, I really like your Atlantis.  It would fit the ten kingdoms, however what do you make of this portion of land (facing the country which is now called the region of Gades in that part of the world)?

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/critias.html

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/timaeus.html



It's just a reference, I believe: Gades was the only "civilized" place beyond the Columns of Herakles in times of Plato (excluding maybe other Phoenician colonies in Morocco). VNSP country is not far from Gades actually and Gades (Gadir) was precisely placed there to control the many resources (mostly mineral) that were in Iberia and via Iberia (in Britain). This doesn't mean that Gades existed back then in the times of Atlantis: it's just a modern reference, like saying that the Aztec Empire was facing Havana or near Veracruz, just diachronic refrerences for the contemporaneous reader.

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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 08:45

Thanks Maju,your theory is good, and does convince me that there could have been a  culture from the west, that invaded Athens around 1300 bc  before the Sea people.However what do make of this whole glorified city made with water channels and metals?

 

First of all they bridged over the zones of sea which surrounded the ancient metropolis, making a road to and from the royal palace. And at the very beginning they built the palace in the habitation of the god and of their ancestors, which they continued to ornament in successive generations, every king surpassing the one who went before him to the utmost of his power, until they made the building a marvel to behold for size and for beauty. And beginning from the sea they bored a canal of three hundred feet in width and one hundred feet in depth and fifty stadia in length, which they carried through to the outermost zone, making a passage from the sea up to this, which became a harbour, and leaving an opening sufficient to enable the largest vessels to find ingress. Moreover, they divided at the bridges the zones of land which parted the zones of sea, leaving room for a single trireme to pass out of one zone into another, and they covered over the channels so as to leave a way underneath for the ships; for the banks were raised considerably above the water. Now the largest of the zones into which a passage was cut from the sea was three stadia in breadth, and the zone of land which came next of equal breadth; but the next two zones, the one of water, the other of land, were two stadia, and the one which surrounded the central island was a stadium only in width. The island in which the palace was situated had a diameter of five stadia. All this including the zones and the bridge, which was the sixth part of a stadium in width, they surrounded by a stone wall on every side, placing towers and gates on the bridges where the sea passed in. The stone which was used in the work they quarried from underneath the centre island, and from underneath the zones, on the outer as well as the inner side. One kind was white, another black, and a third red, and as they quarried, they at the same time hollowed out double docks, having roofs formed out of the native rock. Some of their buildings were simple, but in others they put together different stones, varying the colour to please the eye, and to be a natural source of delight. The entire circuit of the wall, which went round the outermost zone, they covered with a coating of brass, and the circuit of the next wall they coated with tin, and the third, which encompassed the citadel, flashed with the red light of orichalcum.

The palaces in the interior of the citadel were constructed on this wise:-in the centre was a holy temple dedicated to Cleito and Poseidon, which remained inaccessible, and was surrounded by an enclosure of gold; this was the spot where the family of the ten princes first saw the light, and thither the people annually brought the fruits of the earth in their season from all the ten portions, to be an offering to each of the ten. Here was Poseidon's own temple which was a stadium in length, and half a stadium in width, and of a proportionate height, having a strange barbaric appearance. All the outside of the temple, with the exception of the pinnacles, they covered with silver, and the pinnacles with gold. In the interior of the temple the roof was of ivory, curiously wrought everywhere with gold and silver and orichalcum; and all the other parts, the walls and pillars and floor, they coated with orichalcum. In the temple they placed statues of gold: there was the god himself standing in a chariot-the charioteer of six winged horses-and of such a size that he touched the roof of the building with his head; around him there were a hundred Nereids riding on dolphins, for such was thought to be the number of them by the men of those days. There were also in the interior of the temple other images which had been dedicated by private persons. And around the temple on the outside were placed statues of gold of all the descendants of the ten kings and of their wives, and there were many other great offerings of kings and of private persons, coming both from the city itself and from the foreign cities over which they held sway. There was an altar too, which in size and workmanship corresponded to this magnificence, and the palaces, in like manner, answered to the greatness of the kingdom and the glory of the temple.

In the next place, they had fountains, one of cold and another of hot water, in gracious plenty flowing; and they were wonderfully adapted for use by reason of the pleasantness and excellence of their waters. They constructed buildings about them and planted suitable trees, also they made cisterns, some open to the heavens, others roofed over, to be used in winter as warm baths; there were the kings' baths, and the baths of private persons, which were kept apart; and there were separate baths for women, and for horses and cattle, and to each of them they gave as much adornment as was suitable. Of the water which ran off they carried some to the grove of Poseidon, where were growing all manner of trees of wonderful height and beauty, owing to the excellence of the soil, while the remainder was conveyed by aqueducts along the bridges to the outer circles; and there were many temples built and dedicated to many gods; also gardens and places of exercise, some for men, and others for horses in both of the two islands formed by the zones; and in the centre of the larger of the two there was set apart a race-course of a stadium in width, and in length allowed to extend all round the island, for horses to race in. Also there were guardhouses at intervals for the guards, the more trusted of whom were appointed-to keep watch in the lesser zone, which was nearer the Acropolis while the most trusted of all had houses given them within the citadel, near the persons of the kings. The docks were full of triremes and naval stores, and all things were quite ready for use. Enough of the plan of the royal palace.

Leaving the palace and passing out across the three you came to a wall which began at the sea and went all round: this was everywhere distant fifty stadia from the largest zone or harbour, and enclosed the whole, the ends meeting at the mouth of the channel which led to the sea. The entire area was densely crowded with habitations; and the canal and the largest of the harbours were full of vessels and merchants coming from all parts, who, from their numbers, kept up a multitudinous sound of human voices, and din and clatter of all sorts night and day.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 11:06
First, I don't think that they ever attacked Athens. I think that's an exaggeration of the chronists. What happened is that, for centuries, they stayed in a central position of a strategical large socio-economic region, comprising all the native Atlantic Europe and even some parts of Western Mediterranean. The events that are being unfolded in the Bronze Age are very revealing:
  • 1800-1300: Replacement of the southern "Portuguese" cities by a barbarian something with some Hellenic flavor, that keeps pushing north towards VNSP/Atlantis
  • 1600: Conquest of Crete by the Mycenean Greeks but certain continuity
  • 1500:
    • Hellenization of El Argar
    • Colonization of Las Motillas to open a Tin Route (and maybe of silver and gold too) to NW Iberia
    • Megalithism in Sardinia ("Atlantization" of Sardinia?)
  • Uncertain date: Megalithism in North Africa
All this scenario will end in the 1300-1200 period both in Iberia and Greece. So what do we have? A 200 years' struggle for the domain of Iberia and the western trade routes and natural resources that ends suddenly without apparent connection with anything other than a marginal Celtic invasion c. 1300.

Here is where the hypothesis of an earthquake with tsunami, simmilar to the Great Earthquake of Lisbon would play a role.

Atlantis/VNSP is abandoned after the disaster and the Greeks are possibly expelled by Celtic incursions and maybe their own problems, while El Argar breaks up in little states. The native West is reorganized in the Atlantic-Bronze macro-culture that seems more centered in Britain but also keeps some secondary center in Central Portugal, though not anymore urban. Whatever happened exactly: there seems to be a total reorganization.

Eventually Tartessos is founded and some isolated Greeks, but specially the Phoenicians come to trade with them in a colonial manner.

...

Second, I have nothing to back up the detailed description of Atlantis, only that the distance from Zambujal to the sea seems to fit very well with the Platonic description for the canal's lenght (50 stadia are aprox. 10-12 km.)

But maybe more investigation could find some of that.

Or maybe it's all in the mind of the narrators, based in some other stuff or whatever.


Edit: I've just found something more:


The fortification complex of the 3rd and 2nd millennium B. C. is situated in the Cencelho Torres Vedras (province of Estremadura, district of Lisbon) some 14 km as the crow flies from the present-day Atlantic coast on a hill projection steeply dropping away towards the west. Geo-archaeological investigations (in 1986) established that, until the 2nd half of the 2nd millennium B. C., Zambujal was at most 1 km away from a former marine branch.


Source: http://www.dainst.org/index.php?id=595 (take a look: it's interesting).

A detail of the fortification that I could find:



Edited by Maju

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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 00:28

 Neat Maju

 Sank could have very well  meant abandoned.  I just wonder if there are any other qoutes in history, that the ancients in refering to cities that were over thrown ,or destroyed in the terms of sank or sinking).

 however in timaeus the priest says,

But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island.

 

 

 

 

 

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  Quote Alkiviades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 03:01

Neat theory maju and very well thought out, but I believe it's basic premise (ie the Atlantis connection) just ain't there. I think we are trying way too literally to find some Atlantis or (in your case) we are trying to adjust the myth to fit a specific area/culture we have in mind.

Both approaches are rather fallacius and can lead only to error.

If you wanna play arrogant with me, you better have some very solid facts to back up that arrogance, or I'll tear you to pieces
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 06:23
Originally posted by docyabut

 Neat Maju

 Sank could have very well  meant abandoned.  I just wonder if there are any other qoutes in history, that the ancients in refering to cities that were over thrown ,or destroyed in the terms of sank or sinking).

 however in timaeus the priest says,

But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island.



I am working with the hypothesis of an earthquake and tsunami that might not have destroyed totally the cities but, additionally to the wars, broke havoc causing the cities to be abandoned. Notice also that, though the civilization is known since the 1930s, it's only been partially excavated and not paid too much attention, so there's much yet to find out about this civilization, wether it is Atlantis or not.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 06:31
Originally posted by Alkiviades

Neat theory maju and very well thought out, but I believe it's basic premise (ie the Atlantis connection) just ain't there. I think we are trying way too literally to find some Atlantis or (in your case) we are trying to adjust the myth to fit a specific area/culture we have in mind.

Both approaches are rather fallacius and can lead only to error.



The fact is that VNSP fits too well with the narration of Atlantis to ignore the possibility that they are one and the same. Unlike most Atlantologists who think that the city must be submerged and yet to be found, I follow a more prosaic approach: looking into the simmilarities between the narration of Atlantis and the legends of Herakles with what we already know. I also consider the possibilty (very convenient, I must admit) that some details of the narration have been fabricated and don't correspond tightly with the real Atlantis, but I also think that te coincidence of at least two legends with diferent origins into about the same story must mean something. I think that, like in the case of Troy, behind the legend there is more than just fantasies, though, of course some fantasies could have been added as well.

I truly think that if there is one candidate to be Atlantis/Erythia, that one is VNSP-Zambujal. And I don't see other candidates anywhere with such a strong resemblance with both legends.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 07:59
Furthermore, I'll put the 1500-1300 scenario that I'm considering as most likely for the Atlantis/Erythia semi-mythical events to have happened in pan-Mediterranean context with a map:



Light Blue color means the area of Atlantean/VNSP possible influence (North Africa is very hypothetical)
Orange color means the area of Mycenean Greek influence
Light Green color means the area of Hittite influence
Some nations/cultures have been indistinctly painted of grey

The "mine" symbols at NW Iberia and SW Britain mean the main sources of tin, which was very scarce and without doubt was the cause of all the mess, withe Greeks and Argarians trying to remove Atlantis/VNSP from the monopoly of its trade.

Notice that while Hittites and Egyptians did not "need" the tin (Hittites had already invented iron casting, while Egyptians remained in the Copper Age), Greeks did need it strongly, because they relied on Bronze tech and possibly did not have free access to the possible mines of Eastern Anatolia/Caucasus, nor the ability to defeat the Hittites without it.


Edited by Maju

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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 12:10

While there are many theories about Atlantis, nearly all serious research shows that Atlantis never existed as Plato described it, although elements of his story may have been drawn from real events.

 

I agree maju much of the story was exaggerated,after all Solon was going to use this story in his poems. however he does say the story was true. It is in finding the facts .

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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 12:17

To me the only real clue in Critias`s memory is atlantis was located near the country that they knew in their time, Gadir, Gades, now Gadiz

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadir

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