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Plato`s Atlantis

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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Plato`s Atlantis
    Posted: 14-Jan-2006 at 07:22

Mainake wasn't founded by Greeks but by Phoenicians

maju, I believe the phocaean and the phoeninician were two different groups of people.The phocaean were greeks

 

http://libro.uca.edu/stanislawski/Chap7.htm

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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2006 at 07:30
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2006 at 08:36
Originally posted by docyabut

Mainake wasn't founded by Greeks but by Phoenicians

maju, I believe the phocaean and the phoeninician were two different groups of people.The phocaean were greeks

 

http://libro.uca.edu/stanislawski/Chap7.htm



You are right, I was confusing Mainake (Marbella) with nearby Malaka (Mlaga).

However, the importance of the Greek outposts south of Emporion is very limited: they were never any more than trading posts:

According to Herodotus, the first Greek in Iberia was the adventurer Kolaios of Samos, who was blown off course and landed at Tartessos during the reign of Arganthonius. His reception was a warm one, and he returned to Greece with a cargo of 1,500 kilos of silver from the king, whose name itself meant "he of the silver land."  It is more likely that the voyage of Kolaios, about 2,300 kilometres each way, was actually planned with the fabulous Tartessian silver mines as the objective.

Traders from the Greek city of Phocaea followed, reaching Iberia around 600 BC to found the colonies of Rhode and Emporion ("market place") on the northeastern coast. The Greek presence was limited mainly to present-day Catalonia (place names ending in -oussa.) and did not penetrate the interior; they wanted trade, not conquest. Many places suggested as colonies were just small trading posts or landmarks; these include Mainake (Velez-Mlaga), Hemeroskopeion (Denia), Alonis (Benidorm), and Akra-Leuke (Alicante).

(Source)

The Phoenicians arrived on the coast of the province around 1.000 B.C., creating the city-factory of Malacca (in touch with the Tartessos Empire), according to Estrabon, around the actual Alcazaba hills. Following the Phoenicians example, the Greek colonists arrived in the 7th century, coinciding with the peak of the Phoenician factories. They founded Mainake, to the east of Malacca. In the face of the tension which arose between the Phoenicians and Greeks, the former called for the Carthaginians to help, and once the Greeks were defeated, Carthage extended its domains over Andalusia, the Carthaginians fortified the Phoenician Malacca and destroyed the Greek Mainake. The power of the Carthaginians allowed a certain urban development and a relative prosperity. There are findings of their presence in Ronda, Antequera, Arenas, Campillos, Comares, and many other towns in the province.

(Source)

Another Tartessos-versed link that you may like to take a look at is THIS ONE.

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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2006 at 11:33

Maju, what I am suggesting is that the battle of Alalia,( A battle with no official name)  the cities of Tartesso and, Manike were the bases for the story that the priest of Sais gave to Solon, that was recorded in egyptain history in 600bc.

http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/history3.html

 

 

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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2006 at 11:43
The tale was told to Critias`s grandfather from Solon and Critias 2  resites the tale that Plato records ,making it the ancient city of athens.
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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2006 at 11:47

Critias.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke.


It shall be the ancient city of Athens,

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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2006 at 12:07

Phocaean ships were observed in Sardinian waters. Swiftly the Etruscan and Carthaginian vessels were manned and the combined fleet of 120 ships went out to meet the invaders. "The Phocaeans replied by manning their own vessels, also sixty in number, and sailed to meet the enemy off Sardinia," says Herodotus.

Now in this tale of Critias, he states that the atlantians had 12,000 ships  the same numbers as in Homers  tale of Troy.

 And you`ve got to remeber that Herodotus was the frist greek writer before Plato that wrote of the western colonies. 484bc to 425bc

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2006 at 13:21
I don't think so: the battle of Alalia isn't just a well known event for the Greeks but also involves a nation, the Phoenicians, that was even more familiar to the Egyptians than Greeks themselves. Besides, I don't understand why, if Tartessos was then independent and had a friendly relation with Greeks, would they fight against them (in the Carthaginian-Etruscan side).

Also, the Tartessians never seem to have exerted any power beyond southern Iberia, what doesn't fit with the Platonian descriptions of Atlantis as a power that dominated many lands, specifically parts of Lybia (Africa). Instead VNSP can be considered to have exerted some significative influence both in Western Europe and in North Africa, noticeable by the extension of its trade (Scandinavia, Africa and all SW Europe) and the lack of any comparable civilization besides Los Millares and El Argar successively in all that area, which, in the case of El Argar B exclussively, would seem to play the role of Greek outpost.

The struggle described by Plato only mentions Atlanteans and Athenians (Greeks). There's no mention to any other nation, like the ones not just present but leading (!!!) one of the alliances at the time of Alalia.

It must be also, by definition something that happened before Greeks started to have a precise historic memory, something that was only recorded in oral legends like the Works of Herakles, whose adventures are all in a Mycenean (c. 1600-1200) and not Classical (c. 800-350) Greece. Athens was also a major city among those existent in the Mycenean period, so even by Athenians we may need to understad, if not specifically the Greeks of Athens itself only, at least the Greeks (Ionians) that were culturally associated to the Mycenean period.

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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2006 at 19:00

Mauj qoute-I don't think so: the battle of Alalia isn't just a well known event for the Greeks but also involves a nation, the Phoenicians, that was even more familiar to the Egyptians than Greeks themselves.

That why the egyptians recorded it in their history 600 bc, from the phoenicians in 600bc . Athens had no over seas city states.The priest reffered to the hellen desendants and Critais made it Athens. I believe the priest was reffering to  the citizens of Mainike. 

Maju qoute- Besides, I don't understand why, if Tartessos was then independent and had a friendly relation with Greeks, would they fight against them (in the Carthaginian-Etruscan side).

They didn`t they protected Tartesso.What I am saying is the priest said it was a power gather into one, where as  Solon  combines this power into the word Atlantis ( the men of the sea of atlas ).

Timaeus

Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits; and then, Solon, your country shone forth, in the excellence of her virtue and strength, among all mankind. She was pre-eminent in courage and military skill, and was the leader of the Hellenes. And when the rest fell off from her, being compelled to stand alone, after having undergone the very extremity of danger, she defeated and triumphed over the invaders, and preserved from slavery those who were not yet subjugated, and generously liberated all the rest of us who dwell within the pillars. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea.

Herodutus

The capital was surrounded and its walls demolished. When the capital fell the city and the empire sank into the Guadalquivir river. Mainake, the Greek colony which protected Tartessia from Carthage, also sank.

 

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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2006 at 19:15

It was a battle over who would rule the seas.

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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2006 at 19:50
 Before 600bc Athens was just  a small town in Attica.however it did not establish overseas colonies as the other city states instead ,it extended its territory on the greek mainland by 600 bc, it had brought all of the villages of Attica under its leadership.
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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2006 at 21:44

Maju, there were many lost ancient civilizations in the ancient world.  However Critias and Plato places this lost civilization near the country now called Gades in their  time.If there was a power as you say in Iberia that could have control the mediteranean (c. 1600-1200. before the dark ages , then you would like  the theories and discoveries of  Gerogous Diaz.

http://discoveryatlantis.sytes.net/

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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2006 at 21:53
Gerogous thinks it was of that time period ,however he is the one that brought me to my theory of 600 bc.
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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2006 at 22:32
He had a  accident  this last spring while diving and  is still recovering. However he has found many artifacts and is into the ancient lanuages of  the story of atlantis. To me he is the best source.  
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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2006 at 23:17
I would like to aplogize to this forum for going on and on, but to me Atlantis is the most mysterious event in our history.I would  like to find it in our true history.I have been studying Atlantis ever since the age of 16 and am now 63.  I was raised on Cayce readings and  knew a women that had a reading.Cayce had it right only in a different fashion. There  were many theories that were presented at the  Atlantis conferenences in Milos Greece this summer , however to find it in our true history is my quest. Troy was found and I think the meaning of atlantis could be found  also.  Should I go on or do you want me to quit?
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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 05:18

Originally posted by docyabut

 Should I go on or do you want me to quit?

Absolutelly not! Your posts are most interesting and your knowledge on the matter makes them even more.



Edited by Yiannis
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 06:27
Let me put my main points systematically:
  1. The main source is Plato, attributing the origin of the story to the Egyptians. Egyptians could have known via the Phoenicians or (as I believe) via the very Greeks (or Minoan Cretans), as Egypt and Crete had a strong commercial connection even before Phoenicians existed as such.
  2. I believe that narration is paralleled by two of the legends of Herakles: Herakles against Geriones and Herakles and the Golden Apples of the Hesperides. The mythical figure of Herakles lives clearly in Mycenean Greece (c. 1600-1200 BCE), not in later times.
  3. Atlantis is supposed to have been a major power able to carry war into the Mediterranean and defy the Greeks. Tartessos was a relatively small power and their only known battles were defensive against the Phoenicians, not the Greeks (and this is important). Instead VNSP had probably the ability to lead coalitions of Atlantic aborigin peoples against any invader. Greek presence is rather clear in rival El Argar and is possible among the difusse tribes of the SW Iberian Bronze Age (grabsystem tombs resemble strangely Mycenean ones).
  4. VNSP geography is much better coincident with the Platonian description: capital city placed in a central mountain, 10 "royal tombs", appears to be a large island, has clear influence over other peoples, etc. Tartessos instead seems to be forced to fix in that description: small island, no mountain, no "royal tombs", no influence beyond Andalusia, no fight against Greeks...
  5. Tartessos belongs to the Dark Ages and maybe to the Classical Period of Greece. In the Dark Ages, Greek power shrinked and they didn't carry on expeditions anywhere beyond the Aegean. In the Classical Ages they recorded their history, so we would know. VNSP instead belongs partly to the Mycenean Age and there is clear Mycenean influence in southern Iberia as to consider plausible that Greeks were involved in struggles there. Yet Greeks would not have kept memery of these wars in other way than through legends, what actually is the case.
In brief, I think that Tartessos doesn't fit with the description almost in anything, while VNSP fits better than any other thing I could think about. I think that Tartessos grew up after both VNSP and the centralized state of El Argar sucumbed c. 1300 BCE. There's no archaeological chronology for Tartessos as such, because the city haven't been excavated but the surrounding Tartesian culture is well known and it is basically a semi-colonial culture, with intense Phoenician influences. Instead VNSP is a native culture, with only limited foreign influences, and it would fit the Platonic description in almost all.

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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 00:18

Maju, I like your theory  Are you contributing this war to the Egyptian account of the sea people 1200bc?

 

  http://artsales.com/ARTistory/Ancient_Ships/17_sea_peoples.h tml

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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 05:09
Thanks Yiannias, not really knowledge, just like most Atlantian researchers,  tearing  Plato`s Timaeus and Critias apart, to see where its fits into our history. Plato said the story was true.
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 06:45
Originally posted by docyabut

Maju, I like your theory  Are you contributing this war to the Egyptian account of the sea people 1200bc?

 

  http://artsales.com/ARTistory/Ancient_Ships/17_sea_peoples.h tml



I suspect that most of the Sea Peoples wer in fact Mycenean Greek subgroups. Your link is very speculative and I honestly doubt that any of the Sea Peoples came from the far away places that map shows.

The Danuna are probably the Danaes of Homeric narrations: a group among the Greeks, the Pheleset are almost without doubt the Philisteans but they seem also Greeks with base at Crete, from where they invaded Gaza and the rest of Philistine. The Shakala and Sikulu are probably the same tribe and they may be Sicilians, the Lukka are almost without doubt Lycians, and the Lybu are Lybians. The other tribes are much more uncertain but I don't think any of them came from farther west than Italy.

In any case the Sea Peoples' epysode (c. 1200 BCE)happens clearly after whatever happened in Iberia in the 1500-1300 period, so instead of being "Atlanteans" they should have been the ones that defeated them: Greeks and other Mediterranean peoples.

I can't exclude that Egyptians who at the time weren't yet a sailor nation could have mixed both episodes in one, but among the rather well recorded names of the Sea Peoples' tribes there's not a single one that can recall the name "Atlantis", so I think that from the viewpoint of actual history these are two separate epysodes.

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