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Plato`s Atlantis

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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Plato`s Atlantis
    Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 02:05
About the Lady of Elche I have seen a picture in Tani Jantsang's stuff of an Altaic womans headdress with exactly the same type horns. (I once thought Elche might relate to Elishah/Alashiya (supposedly Cyprus) but now think Elishah may be Hellas.)
About the walls of silver: have any of you looked in to what the oreichalcos was of the Atlantis acct. Spanuth believes it was amber which may fit with Majus theory. I think Zangger was right that it was brass with pseudarguros being zinc.
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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 15:13

Maju, what Mari were you refering to ?

Rob any pictures.?

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 19:39
Originally posted by docyabut

Maju, what Mari were you refering to ?



The same you do: Mari the Basque Goddess - aka Anbotoko Mari, aka Murumendiko Mari, etc.

But the Wikipedia article is wrong in some things and specially in the image (that I have already deleted).

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 19:45
Originally posted by Arthur-Robin

About the Lady of Elche I have seen a picture in Tani Jantsang's stuff of an Altaic womans headdress with exactly the same type horns. (I once thought Elche might relate to Elishah/Alashiya (supposedly Cyprus) but now think Elishah may be Hellas.)
About the walls of silver: have any of you looked in to what the oreichalcos was of the Atlantis acct. Spanuth believes it was amber which may fit with Majus theory. I think Zangger was right that it was brass with pseudarguros being zinc.


I have also thought of amber... but I truly have no preference: it might well have been a later literary decoration of the story... based in something but what?

Ilici fits the Iberian pattern of Ili- to mean city. Notice that Iri, Hiri, Uli, Uri are still used in Basque for the same concept: city or town. My guess (following Krutwig) is that the word ultimately comes from SW Asia, where it appears in names such as Jerico (Iriko), Jerusalem (Irisalem), Ilion, Ur, Uruk, Iridu, etc.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 19:56
Originally posted by Komnenos

Originally posted by Maju

Who was the &%@#! that moved this topic to Historical amusement? For once that do have a serious debate on this issue! Historical amusement is for things like "what if ..." or stuff like that not for serious ancient proto-history discussion.


The &%@#! was me. I have no idea what you are complaining about, the thread is still open in the original forum. Any discussion about Atlantis belongs into the "Historical Amusement" section, where alternative histories are being discussed.


I strongly disagree because our understading of Atlantis is not any "alternative history" but which is the truth behind it, based on archaeological facts mostly and avoiding speculation as much as possible. It's ridiculous to have such a serious discussion mover to the "circus" section.

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  Quote Ulf Richter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 19:56

Maju,

When the one-eyed administrator decided to shift our  scientific thread into "Historical Amusement",  because he is of the opinion that any idea that Platos Atlantis story could be a historical source, could only amuse him, then let him do that. In some years he must change his mind, no doubt. We have similar narrow-minded people also in Germany who do not even allow in the Wikipedia-article "Atlantis" to bring a notice about the International Atlantis Conference in Milos 2005 as an evidence, that many university scientists of today are dealing seriously with the question, if real historic sources could be found in the "Timaeus" and the "Critias".  According to these dogmatics the only correct scientific theory is that the whole story is a 100% invention of Plato, and another theory is not even worth mentioning.

Nevertheless, we should continue our serious debates also at the new location.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 00:19
Well, I disagree and when I disagree, I do protest. Let me do it may way, please.

I am actually thinking of opening a brand new topic in Ancient Mediterranean and Europe, where it beleongs without doubt and do it with an article explaining my "theory" and also the other mainstream theories on Atlantis.

But not today...

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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 09:05
Historical amusement? Does`nt the administrator know that some of our history is missing , the dark ages. Nothing amuseing about that
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 09:28
What is damn stupid about this is that in the same section (General History) there is another thread about... believe or not... Eden!!! Yes: the Garden of Eden is considered serious history and this discussion on the Bronze Age isn't.

It's truly annoying!

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2006 at 04:47
Just started a "serious" topic in its adequate forum:

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10234&am p;PN=1


Edited by Maju

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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2006 at 09:22
I still haven't got the slightest idea what the fuss is all about. I made both Atlantis threads available in two Forums, in an additional one that might attract members that are interested in alternative and speculative history, and you complain, instead of being grateful.
And if you have complaints against narrow-minded and one-eyed administrators, do it via PM to other AE staff and not in the thread here.
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  Quote Ulf Richter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2006 at 17:58

Komnenos,

The remark "one-eyed" came from your former Avatar showing a one-eyed horror mask. Excuse me.

The availability of this thread in two forums will last only a very limited time, according to my experience with another thread which was also displaced, after a short time only the new place will be valid. Therefore it is no acceptable way for us, and we will go over withour discussion to Majus new thread.

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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2006 at 08:59

Sorry to report  our member and a good friend  Ulf  Richter has passed away  he will be sadly missed.

http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_ topic;f=1;t=001578;p=1#000009

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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2014 at 06:18

There were 4 atlantis topics in my search results (atlantis, plato's atlantis, atlantis fact or fiction, did atlantis exist), i wasn't sure which to post this in so i picked the most read one (though it maybe i should have picked the least posts one so this doesn't get lost in the mass of posts/pages).

I posted this on historum in 'America before Columbus' thread/topic but will post it here for those who have seen me mention about Atlantis & Tiahuanaco.

This Inca picture from the Coricancha in Cuzco is one of the proofs that Atlantis city/continent is Tiahuanaco/South America.



things in the picture that match Plato's Atlantis account are :
sun/stars/summer & moon/clouds/winter = 2 crops a year
criss-crossed rectangle = great plain with ditch & criss-crossing channels
man & woman = poseidon & cl(e)ito
concentric ringed city on left / concentric ringed city in lake on right = concentric ringed city.
(?mound in city/circle on left ~ akapana ~ (dwelling of poseidon &) cleito)
cliff
"mountains"?
plant/tree ~ woodlands or crop?
lake (titicaca) = city by/near sea.
[canal/river ~ canal/river/ditch?]
[7 dots ~ 7 cities/islands in some versions?]

I am not able to re-write up my paper with all my evidences at present, but Jim Allen's 'Atlantis in Bolivia' site has alot of info. Here is the start of a table of some evidences (not anywhere near detailed enough) :

Tiahaunaco/Peru/SAmeric -- Atlantis account
Atlantis city/isl -- Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku "Baalbek of New World" (Posnansky), Huinaymarka means "eternal city";
Atlantis continent/larger than Asia&Africa -- SouthAmerica?
near sea / 9.2km from sea -- Tiahuanaco 10miles from Titicaca
small low hill / (dwelling of Poseidon &) Clito -- Akapana
high mountains -- Andes
large plain with crisscrossing channels -- Altiplano, crosscrossed rectangle on coricancha picture
sinking/submergence, quakes&floods -- continental shift / Tiahuanaco flooded, ... force ...., long night?
bulls / bull sacrifice -- ceramic stone bulls on housetops, pottery cow / cow shaped vase / cow sacrificed & entrails put in vase, seated "deer" figure carrying a club (larouse world mythology)
900(0)yrs / c 1400s bc -- c1400/1394bc (long night) / "12000th yr" / [1580bc] <Moses/Josh>
Atlanteans own script --
orei-chalcum -- tumbaga (gold-copper alloy), (crespi collection, unusual alloys)
circular/concentric rings -- concentric canals Tiahuanaco, concentric in coricancha picture
central island 5 stades -- central island Tiahuanaco 2x1 miles
2crops a year -- sun/stars/summer&moon/clouds/winter on coricancha picture
temple / palace 185mx92m -- kalasasya 400x450ft / kantatayita / (puma pinku) / throne room160x130ft / [100x85ft / hall 45x22ft]
Atlas/world pillar -- world pillar motif
winged horses -- winged attendants on gate of sun?
opp/fac pillars of hercules at gibraltar -- opp/beyond poh at gibraltar (map projection, pole shift, continental shift)
west/Atlantic -- west/Atlantic
in real/true ocean/Atlantic not Mediterranean/sea -- is in Atlantic/Pacific ocean
midpoint of sea side of island -- is in middle area of Pacific side of SthAmerica
all kinds of animals --
boats -- totora/reed boats of Urus Titicaca (kon tiki)?
red, white & black -- (r w & blue steps church Paucarcolla), gold silver copper,
10 / 5x2 twins/kings [12 ks Scheria] -- 5 flanking either side on 'Gate of the Sun', (10 kings Taycanamo dynasty,) 11 pillars Tiahuanaco? viracocha adopts 5 pairs of Twins (Jim Allen).


The thesis/discovery is that Atlantis the continent is south America, the city is Tiahuanaco, the "sinking" was continental shift (the Atlantic was previously say half the current distance [and South America is centred further east than north America), and the date was 900 years or ca 1400s bc.

I can't really claim much credit for the discovery because Jim Allen more or less already discovered it himself (though his site is abit further south at Poopo, though i saw a webpage awhile ago that looked like he may have also or since identified the city as Tiahuanaco?), and i possibly wouldn't have been able to narrow down Atlantis from Americas (north &/or south) to south America and Peru/Bolivia and Titicaca and Tiahuanaco if it wasn't for his own info helping me abit, though the continental shift part of my theory was my own thesis from 1999 to now and i otherwise did all my own thinking/etc until certain that right site was Tiahuanaco. This discovery synthesises various reasearchers: Posnansky, David Fasold, Sitchin, Jim Allen, me, (HS Bellamy, Charles Berlitz,) etc.

ps people rubbish/discredit me just because some of my sources are like Sitchin, yet they can't deny that there is some true info in them like the coricancha picture (and that is all the sort of things i glean from them anyway (because some of us can only use what sources we have access to)). If it wasn't for Sitchin's Lost realms i may not have found the final proof. They can't rubbish the Incas (and other evidences).


Edited by Arthur-Robin - 27-Jan-2014 at 06:22
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  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2014 at 22:46
I'm happy to accept the city of Atlantis could have once existed.
 
I lean towards those theories that it was located somewhere on an Atlantic shoreline, or close to that ocean. I would extend that to the Mediterranean Sea, but I couldn't accept South America.
 
The references to the Pillars of Hercules, modern day Straits of Gibraltar, could have placed it somewhere in Spain, North Africa or even Portugal.
 
Would someone enlighten me, Atlantis comes from which language?
 
Was it Phoenecian?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by toyomotor - 12-Feb-2014 at 22:52
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  Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2014 at 13:48
Atlantis was a parable about a proud people being brought down by their own hubris.
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2014 at 14:33
Originally posted by toyomotor

I'm happy to accept the city of Atlantis could have once existed.
 
I lean towards those theories that it was located somewhere on an Atlantic shoreline, or close to that ocean. I would extend that to the Mediterranean Sea, but I couldn't accept South America.
 
The references to the Pillars of Hercules, modern day Straits of Gibraltar, could have placed it somewhere in Spain, North Africa or even Portugal.
 
Would someone enlighten me, Atlantis comes from which language?
 
Was it Phoenecian?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
The Nahuatl language was spoken by the Mayans and Aztecs.  In that language "atl" means water.
 
It's assumed that the unusual structures found in that language stem from a much older civilization.
 
To my knowledge, the only uses of the "atl" combination, outside of S. America are "atlantic, and atlas". 
I'm not that familiar with Phoenician to exclude it entirely, but I doubt it. 
 
 
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2014 at 14:59
In all of them is "Human dream&imagination",Red!Was it based on memories or fantasies?!?
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  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2014 at 15:47
There are several curious points in the Atlantis myth. First, Atlantis shall have exist already 1000 years before the foundation of Athens. Athens itself shall have existed already 9000 year before Solon. Egypt is said to be 1000 years younger than Athens.
These story was told to Solon by a priest from the temple of Neith in Sais.
Platon has this story from Kritias as it seems. Kritias lived between 460 and 400. Platon was born around 430. He probably wrote his Kritias in the 350th. So what did Platon really know? Kritias itself shall have heard the story from his grandfather, who got the story from his father Dropides, who shall have been Archon in 593/2. Solon shall have lived between 640 and 560. So Dropides was nearly as old as Solon. That makes 180 years between the birth of Kritias and his great-grandfather. That's a too great difference to be true. It can only match if Solon lived at a later date, which some scientists suppose.
So let us take a year 590 BC (the suppose year of Solon's visit in Egypt) for the story Platon is telling us. As I wrote above, the story was told by a priest of neith in Sais. This town is settled since 4000 BC, but a temple is just know in the Middle Kingdom (after 2100 BC). It was the temple of Nb.T SW, which is perhaps identical with Neith (Nj.T). She is known already in the 1st dynasty around 3000 BC, but she got more prestige in the new Kingdom since 1550 BC.

We have now the problem, that Platon writes, that Egypt existed already 8000 years before Solon and Athens 1000 years before Egypt and that Atlantis even 1000 years more.
So Atlantis evolved around 10600 BC, during the Dryas, a time when the Tundras returned, a stadial. Shall we really expect a great empire, that had conquered nearly the whole mediterranian Sea during the Dryas? If we follow Platon, Athens existed since 9600 BC. As far as we know today, are there neolithic artefacts already from 7500 BC, a city, especially one which could defeat a great power like Atlantis, existed not before the mycenian era. Egypt, one of the oldest cultures is as well not 8600 years old. It goes back to 4000 BC, but as i said, the old kingdom doesn't start before 2700 and even the 1st dynasty is not older than 3000 BC.

So we see, before we search for Atlantis, we should solve all these problems. One solution would be to change the 8000-10,000 years for lunar month, which would give us a time between the 14th and 13th century. If we date Solon later, the 12th century.

This would bring us to the sea people era. If we remember Thera, the end of the mycenian and minoan era, then in Platon's story about Atlantis (or in those of the priests of Sais) it is possible, that several incidents melted together in a single story, like we have it in the Artus-legend or those of the Nibelungs, if these story isn't completely invented and an allegory.
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  Quote Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2014 at 16:37
Originally posted by toyomotor

I'm happy to accept the city of Atlantis could have once existed.
 

I lean towards those theories that it was located somewhere on an Atlantic shoreline, or close to that ocean. I would extend that to the Mediterranean Sea, but I couldn't accept South America.

 

The references to the Pillars of Hercules, modern day Straits of Gibraltar, could have placed it somewhere in Spain, North Africa or even Portugal.

 

Would someone enlighten me, Atlantis comes from which language?

 

Was it Phoenecian?
 


Plato took it from the Greek name Atlas. He says in the Critais that the first king was called:

"Atlas, and after him the whole island and the ocean were called Atlantic."

The names that Plato gives in connection with the history of Atlantis are all Greek. He comments on this himself (in the Critais);

"Yet, before proceeding further in the narrative, I ought to warn you, that you must not be surprised if you should perhaps hear Hellenic names given to foreigners. I will tell you the reason of this: Solon, who was intending to use the tale for his poem, enquired into the meaning of the names, and found that the early Egyptians in writing them down had translated them into their own language, and he recovered the meaning of the several names and when copying them out again translated them into our language."

So the names that Plato records are Solon's attempts to give the Greek meaning to the Egyptian names he heard. However, Solon believed that the Egyptians themselves gained the names originally from the ancient Athenians who had fought against Atlantis (thus the comment by Plato that "the early Egyptians in writing them down had translated them into their own language, and he [Solon] recovered the meaning of the several names").

As far as Plato was concerned 'Atlantis' was Solon's translation of the meaning of an Egyptian word, which itself was a translation from the ancient Athenian language. The 'meaning' of Atlantis means pertaining to 'Atlas', so whether the original name (if Plato's story is true) was 'Atlantis' (or attached to some name identified by Solon as 'Atlas') would depend on how much divergence did or did not occur through these translations.



Edited by Sidney - 13-Feb-2014 at 16:42
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