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Plato`s Atlantis

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Plato`s Atlantis
    Posted: 19-Mar-2006 at 18:17
Sorry, Docy, but I just don't believe that Alalia has anything to do with this.

Basically I have a much better explanation with the (VNSP-centered) Megalithist culture of Western Europe. And I hope that, as current excavations proceed, we will find much more about the identity VNSP-Atlantis. The fact that a "sea branch" reached Zambujal itself, has shocked my imagination quite a little.

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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2006 at 19:59

Maju I was asking  on another string ,what the lady of Elx head dress repesented and seems to tie in with the rings of atlantis.

 

 The enigmatic Lady of Elx, a high artistic quality, ancient bust of a woman found in southeastern Spain, has been tied with both Atlantis and Tartessos since the statue displays the dress of unrecognized culture, that presumably developed great artistic skill to have produced such a work.

Some Tartessian enthusiasts imagine it as a contemporary of Atlantis, with which could have traded.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessos

 

 

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2006 at 21:45
I just see an elaborated headdress, proper probably of an aristocratic lady, surely she was the representation of a godess (Mari?)


The Lady of Elx, with a reconstruction of the original policromy


Lady of Baza

These two are truly Iberian, from the area not of what is called "Tartessian" culture but from the post-Argarian one. A region that spoke Iberian in historical times.

The headress is just that: a typical Iberian headress.


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  Quote Ulf Richter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2006 at 22:46

Maju, Herr_Saltzman,

We could indeed speculate for years about what the Egypteans and the Greeks knew and what not, in Solons times. It will not bring us a step forward, because we cannot prove our respective opinion. And so a decision about the validity of a theory as Majus VNPS being Atlantis cannot be made from those speculations.

What we can do is to study all available archaeological remnants in different regions, compare them if there is any congruence, and draw our conclusions. The enigma of Atlantis will not be solved before the circular island with the three enclosing circular ditches can be found, eventually also the city walls covered with metal sheets.

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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2006 at 23:03

I see no connection with the godness Mari.

 

Goddess of Fertility
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Goddess of Fertility
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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2006 at 23:10

how ever to this culture.

Drawing of the walls of the city of Los Millares (source)
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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2006 at 23:24

Los Millares

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Los Millares is the name of a Chalcolithic occupation site 17km outside Almera in Andalusia, Spain.

It consists of a settlement, guarded by numerous outlying forts and a cemetery of passage grave tombs and covers around 5 acres (2ha). It was discovered in 1891 during the course of the construction of a railway and was first excavated by Luis Siret in the succeeding years. Further excavation work continues today.

The settlement itself was surrounded by three concentric walls with four bastions; radiocarbon dating has established that one wall collapsed and was rebuilt around 3025 BCE. A cluster of simple dwellings lay inside the walls as well as one large building containing evidence of copper smelting. Pottery excavted from the site included plain and decorated wares including symbolkeramik bowls bearing oculus motifs. Similar designs appear on various carved stone idols found at the site. Although primarily farmers, the inhabitants of Los Millares had crucially also learnt metal working and the site is considered highly important in understanding the transition from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age. The Los Millares culture eventually came to dominate the Iberian peninsula.

Analysis of occupation material and grave goods from the cemetery of 70 Tholos tombs with port-hole slabs has led archaeologists to suggest that the people who lived at Los Millares were part of a stratified, unequal society which was often at war with its neighbours.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Millares
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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2006 at 23:52

maju.

 Can`nt help but think that tartesso was a extention of this culture.

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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 00:15
The settlement itself was surrounded by three concentric walls
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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 00:28

And look how the head dress looks like the  symbolkeramik bowls bearing oculus motics.

 

 

This page is about the architectural term. See also: eye.

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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 00:32
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 02:20
Originally posted by docyabut

I see no connection with the godness Mari.

 

Goddess of Fertility
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Goddess of Fertility


That is not the Mari I was talking about. I don't know what relation may have this statue to Basque Godess Mari - probably none at all and it's rather a divinity from Mari, the city at the Eufrates, Syria.

Anyhow, I judt can't know wether Iberian and Basque divinities had any connection at all. Just speculating, as we don't know enough about Iberian religion.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 02:34
Originally posted by docyabut

maju.

 Can`nt help but think that tartesso was a extention of this culture.



Of which culture?

We just don't know enough about Tartessos.  El Argar was an extension of Los Millares (but with some clear changes) and post-Argar is somehow in the context of the Tartessian-Orientalizing culture. But all that area falls in the Iberian proper linguistic context not in the Tartessian one, which includes the SW: Lower Andalusia and Southern Portugal. It is believed that Tartessos city belonged to this SW cultural area.

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  Quote Ulf Richter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 08:49

docyabut,

I was myself visiting Los Millares and can assure you, that its position has not the slightest similarity with the description Plato has given from Atlantis. You could compare it e.g. with the Etruscan city of Tarquinia or many other fortified places from ancient times, which use the natural slopes above a river valley to construct their city walls.

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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 10:05
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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 10:26

Ulf its the closes description of the city described in Palto writings. The settlement itself was surrounded by three concentric walls.Tartesso  could have been built on similer patten near the sea, by Gades.

As muju said,we just don't know enough about Tartessos.

The Greek historian Strabo wrote of the wealth and great generosity of Arganthonios in the story of a Greek sailor named Koliaos whose ship was blown off course and landed in Tartessos. After being regally entertained for some months, his ship was loaded up with silver and he was sent home. The story also tells how Arganthonios gave the Greeks 1 1/2 tons of silver to build defensive walls to protect themselves from the Persians.

I wonder if that  meant walls of silver.

 

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  Quote Ulf Richter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 14:50

docyabut, certainly not walls of silver, because then 1,5  tons wouldnt  have been sufficient, but the silver was used to pay the workers.

When we think Tartessos was an heir of Atlantis in the same region - you think it was the same but this is highly unprobable, as discussed already in this thread - the wealth of silver was also a heritage. As Plato wrote, the Atlanteans took orichalcum in value  second to gold, not silver as most other cultures. That means, that they had a great abundance of silver in their area. When they gave 1,5 tons of it to the Greek sailor, it had perhaps a multiplied value in Greece, when the ship arrived home.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 23:08
Who was the &%@#! that moved this topic to Historical amusement? For once that do have a serious debate on this issue!

Historical amusement is for things like "what if ..." or stuff like that not for serious ancient proto-history discussion.


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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 23:14
Originally posted by docyabut

maju,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mari_%28goddess%29



It's wrong. I can tell you that it is an error.

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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 01:31
Originally posted by Maju

Who was the &%@#! that moved this topic to Historical amusement? For once that do have a serious debate on this issue! Historical amusement is for things like "what if ..." or stuff like that not for serious ancient proto-history discussion.


The &%@#! was me. I have no idea what you are complaining about, the thread is still open in the original forum. Any discussion about Atlantis belongs into the "Historical Amusement" section, where alternative histories are being discussed.
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