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Plato`s Atlantis

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Plato`s Atlantis
    Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 07:21
Originally posted by docyabut

Maju you keep referring to Herakles. however he was a one man army well a boyfriend came along, not would you call a whole army that defeated the atlantians.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labours_of_Herakles



But that is the myth. Obviously it wasn't that way.

What the myth actually is telling us is that some Greek expedition went to the Far West and achieved some sort of victory and pillage (btw, I read somewhere that melos may be sheep or apples equally - but I'm not sure about the exact thing). Herakles, Geriones and the other characters of the stories must be taken as groups of people even if they are depicted as single persons.

The resulting fact of Greeks going to the far west to make war against an "island" is totally parallel in both Herakles 10th labour and Critias.

I am quite possitive that they are both telling the same story with diferent styles.

What I'm not sure is wether Herakles hiself (as a royal warlord with military command) was at the head of that expedition or just it was attributed to him as national Hellenic hero but was executed by other anonymous commander(s). Impossible to say.

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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 09:34
I don't think Hercules was a people but a person. The 12 pillars/labours of Hercules (and 12 intended books of Homer) match the 12 tablets and 120 poles of Epic of Gilgamesh.
Yes, melon means goat, apple and bad/evil.
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 13:23
What the heck has to do the Epic of Gilgamesh in this?

Besides, I don't believe in esotheric argumentations. We are discussing history.

Thanks for confirming about melos.

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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 07:24

maju what is meant on this map the group of atalaia? 

 

 
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 10:08
In archaeology "group" is a cultural something that has too little evidence to be called a "culture". Actually it should probably be "horizon", which is an even more ghostly definition.

SW Iberia, which was relatively urbanized in the Chalcolithic, falls with the arrival of Bronze in a non-urban scenario. The successive horizons (of which Atalaia is just the third one and the largest one) are nothing more than groups of tombs (cist type) where the only identificative fossil seems to be a small bronze knife that these people were buried with.

Among the many cists there are a handful of "royal tombs" which consist in three open circular walls ensembled onto each other, called "grabsystem" tombs. I have speculatively associated them with Mycenean circular tombs.


Basic pattern of a grabsystem tomb


The few of these tombs follow the expansive S->N pattern of these SW Bronze horizons being built each time at a more northern place.

The uncivilized SW Bronze Age peoples (they actually have a few unfortified towns but all in the easternmost strip, in Spain, not in Portugal), show a growing extension northwards as the chronology advances.

While I haven't stressed this in other posts, I do feel that these barbaric bronze peoples (proto-Tartessians?) are the avant-guard of the war against VNSP. As they have Bronze tech and VNSP does not, I have always suspected that El Argar supported them - but the conection is not confirmed by any connective fossil that I know of, so they might well be invaders from Africa, a local phenomenon with some uncertain foreign connection or whatever you want to imagine.

They are not the product of a day: they are a people that occupies the area in expansive fashion for 5 centuries (1800-1300), with some continuity also in the late Bronze Age (SW slabs, specially) . But they are barbaric enough not to have left many remains apart of the mentioned tombs and the few "Spaniard" towns.

Compared with the previous stage of the Chalcolithic, when southern Portugal was rather civilized, having the third city of Iberia (Santa Justa) and many notable towns and other cultural elements, they are a celar cultural recession but they are very difficult to interpretate.

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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 06:33
Maju, Plato places Atlantis near Gades , according to history there is no what you would call a great empire on etheir side of the pillars of Heracles 1800 to 1300 bc, that could have rule all the way to egypt or the tyrrhenia. Another puzzlement in the story . The sea people in 1200 bc were just scattered tribes most likey displaced from climate change. Tartesso seems to be the only capital that had a empire after that was ruled by king Aganthonos.
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 07:07

Well, whatever Plato's descriptions gave about "Atlantis" have to be viewed with a grain of salt. Even after Thucydides, Greeks felt there was nothing wrong with mythologizing history - especially when one was recording ancient oral accounts, since it was to be expected that they would contain mythology which should not simply be lost and the chronicler could not objectively sort fact from fiction without being a witness or at least a contemporary of the events in question. There was a very wide latitude in mixing the two, especially in such cases of historical hearsay. So, any specifics given have to be regarded as little better than suggestions or rumours, and it is only the core elements of the story - an advanced island civilization of great antiquity destroyed somehow - that really have any meaning. Its location and features as given by Plato are extremely dubious, but there could be an element of truth to its essential parts. Minoa is a very good candidate - simply because it is strange to think there wouldn't be some echo of its story passed down through the ages.

 

The story of Atlantis is not offered by Plato as any sort of historical account, or even recounting of oral legend, it is actually presented as some sort of allegory for ideas about his "ideal state" mostly in the Critias dialogue. Here, then, he has an even wider latitude in terms of the specifics and is very much free to invent as little or as much as he chooses, and the reader would be expected not to take it literally. Treating it literally would have a number of huge problems in any case; for instance, Athens was reckoned by Plato to have been a contemporary of his Atlantis, and a powerful challenger to its power, and eventually its conqueror. In Plato's version, Atlantis falls not to earthquake but to Athens. It is actually Athens that suffers some sort of calamity related to an earthquake.



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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 08:18
I agree that the Critias must be taken with a grain of salt and that legend is legend and not a first hand historical account, like the one that can be provided by memoirs, newspapers, contemporary chronicles, etc.

What I don't agree is in placing the catastrophe in Athens: the Athenians go to fight to Atlantis and find the catastrophe there - after their victory, if I'm not mistaken.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 08:40
Originally posted by docyabut

Maju, Plato places Atlantis near Gades , according to history there is no what you would call a great empire on etheir side of the pillars of Heracles 1800 to 1300 bc, that could have rule all the way to egypt or the tyrrhenia. Another puzzlement in the story . The sea people in 1200 bc were just scattered tribes most likey displaced from climate change. Tartesso seems to be the only capital that had a empire after that was ruled by king Aganthonos.


What Egyptians and Greeks see as an Empire, to me is rather a religious area of influence.

In my theory, the king-priests of Atlantis are the spiritual and political leaders of a Western bloc that is threatened and weakened successively by the following events:
  • c. 2600 - Danubian tribes (Seine-Oise-Marne) invade Armorica. As reaction, the Aquitanian tribes are organized as Artenac culture. VNSP-Atlantis fortifications are built.
  • c. 2400 - Indo-European tribes invade Scandinavia and other regions of Northern and Central Europe, displacing the Megalithic religion from those regions. Aquitanians conquer all France and Belgium up to the Rhin, that becomes a stable border with continental IEs for more than 1000 years)
  • c. 2200 - The new merchant organization of the Beaker People (probably of IE origin) reaches the coasts of the Western peoples.
  • c. 2100 - VNSP becomes for two centuries the world-wide center of this Bell-Beaker phenomenon. It's probably the apogee of Atlantis.
  • c. 1900 - Bell-Beaker guild dissolves in several smaller groups in Iberia, while its center goes back to Bohemia
  • c. 1800 - Friendly Los Millares civilization is destroyed by El Argar (of simmilar culture but with Bornze tech). The cities south of VNSP-Atlantis are invaded by an ill-known people (discussed above). The formerly megalithic tribes of the Plateau are reorganized as non-Megalithic in Cogotas I culture (with bronze)
  • c. 1500 - El Argar, now under strong Greek influx (El Argar B), launches a major strategy to control the strategic tin routes bypassing rival VNSP-Atlantis: planifies a colonization of La Mancha, in order to have direct access to the routes to the Plateau, the NW and Atlantic Europe. As a reaction Megalithists of Occitanie absorb Corsica and Sardinia in the "Atlantean sphere".
  • c. 1300 - Everything goes to Hell: possible tsunami, simultaneous with Celtic invasions in Occitanie and NE Iberia cause the abandonement of VNSP cities and the disintegration of the Argarian centralized state into city-states. Probably Greeks remained around, obtaining tin, until their own destruction one or two centuries later.
I have some blanks right now, like the British chronology... but I'll fix it.

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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 10:04

Religious area of influence? That could also be said of the Hebrew and of the one God influence.I believe Solomon was dated 800bc

 

http://dictionary.christianpost.com/definition/tarshish.htm

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 11:11
I'm thinking more in the sense of the Church of Rome or maybe even the Caliph. Not just an idea that has offshots but rather a culture structured around a religion in a defensive (and sometimes maybe even offensive) sense. The fact that political and spiritual leadership would be the same maybe would make leadership easier, as "the Atlas" (let's call him that way) would have the power (assumed enough consensus) to lead VNSP politically and the whole Western World ideologically.

It's impossible that a direct ruele of the size described by Plato could have existed at that time: we would see it in the homogeneity of the archaeological remains if that was the case and, anyhow, such huge states are rare and unstable. We are talking of something that would extend from Britain to Lybia. It's imposible that such a huge area would be under a single rule at that time - and we would have stronger evidence if that would be the case. I rather thik in a willing alliance based in culture, economy and religion than in a centralized empire.


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  Quote Ulf Richter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 06:30

Maju,

"I'm thinking more in the sense of the Church of Rome or maybe even the Caliph. Not just an idea that has offshots but rather a culture structured around a religion in a defensive (and sometimes maybe even offensive) sense. The fact that political and spiritual leadership would be the same maybe would make leadership easier, "

I agree with you,that according to Platos texts the 10 kingdoms of Atlantis could have formed not a uniform great empire, but a loose confederation of independent states, which were only tied up by their same religion. Plato described that the 10 kingdoms had for instance a different military system. But the 10 leaders came together all 5 or 6 years in the central santuary, the Poseidon temple on the hill of Cleito, to sacrifice a bull to the god and to speak about mutual political or religious problems.

The fact that the time between these meetings was 5 or 6 years shows clearly, that the area of these 10 kingdoms was very large.

We have a comparable example of a federation of 12 different states on the base of their religion in a later time: The 12 leaders of the independent Etruscan states gathered once a year (the whole territory in central Italy was not as large) in their central santuary, the "Fanum Voltumnae" to sacrifice their offers to the gods and to speak about mutual political and economical problems. This is written in the historical books of Livius, a Roman historian.

"It's impossible that a direct rule of the size described by Plato could have existed at that time: we would see it in the homogeneity of the archaeological remains if that was the case and, anyhow, such huge states are rare and unstable. We are talking of something that would extend from Britain to Lybia. It's impossible that such a huge area would be under a single rule at that time - and we would have stronger evidence if that would be the case. I rather think in a willing alliance based in culture, economy and religion than in a centralized empire."

Exactly ! 

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 22:38
Doesn't Plato says that they met yearly?

One could consider that, while the tombs were all in VNSP, the realms were out of it but I fond it very odd - specialy because apart of VNSP and El Argar nothing seems to have the necessary level of organization - except possibly Britain - to be considered a kingdom.

I haven't found that pattern of 10 countries in the Megalithic region. I have found a patter of 10 "royal tombs" in the VNSP culture: one of the tombs is in the southern peninsula and the other 9 are in the northern (largest) one.

I think that there's confussion in many aspects of what has arrived to us via Plato and that I can't read the Platonian account too literally but flexibly, adapting it to facts (and parallel accounts).

...

I agree that the Etruscans fit pretty well in the same idea. But their core region (where the 12 kings dwelt) was small not really much larger than the Estremadura of VNSP. When they expanded to the Padania, Latium, Campania and Corsica they did not move the kings nor the cities... they duplicated the system in Padania and followed diferent methods in the rest of Italy.

I rather imagine that VNSP/atlantis was much like the Etrscan confederation but with a much larger and much more consolidated area of influence. Etruscans were active for 800 years or so, Megalithism was active for maybe 3,000 years, and Vilanova as such was civilized/fortifed for 1300 years, while Etruscan cities existed for just a few centuries. Etruscans (we must reckon) were under much greater pressure by the bellicose Indo-Europeans, which were still a distant threat in the times of VNSP.

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  Quote St. Francis of Assisi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 23:11
Maju, do you have any evidence that VNSP was the cult centre of megalithism? It would be an interesting thing, but to me it appears to be unsubstantiated.

Going back on the Sea Peoples confederacy, the Sea Peoples had ten tribes, from a variety of places. The Egyptians might have confused this loose confederacy for a "vast" empire, and thought they were fighting an organized empire with ten kings.
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  Quote Ulf Richter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 23:23

Maju

 [Crit119d]:" and thither they assembled every fifth year, and then alternately every sixth year--giving equal honor to both the even and the odd--and when thus assembled they took counsel about public affairs and inquired if any had in any way transgressed and gave judgement" (transl.Bury).

The topics of the assemblies were nearly the same as in the case of the Etruscans. Perhaps it was the old tradition of the Atlanteans which gave the pattern for the Etruscan meetings.

It will be indeed a serious task to find out the 10 different organized culture substrates from the megalithic time which could have been the 10 Atlantean kingdoms. Up to now you mentioned three: the VNSP, El Agar, England.  I think we can consider also the Guadalquivier delta/Bay of Cadiz region, where the catastrophe has abandoned most of the remnants.

But how is it with the region of Brittany/France? How with northern and central Germany where the very sophisticated cultures called "Roessen" (4900-4200 BC), "Michelsberg" (4200-3500 BC) and "Wartberg"(3500-2800 BC) existed? The "Bell Beaker People" are found in Germany between 2600 and 2000 BC, and an older Beaker Culture between 2900 and 2400 BC which already used copper tools beside the usual flint and stone tools. 

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  Quote St. Francis of Assisi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 23:25
Almost no theories on Atlantis deal with the essential question of how and why the Egyptians acquired the information, and why they told it to Solon. Just using common sense, and the clues within the text, we can arrive at the following conclusions about the nature of the story:

  • The conflict between Athens and Atlantis was the oldest mention the Egyptians had of Athens.
  • The Egyptians remembered this action of the Athenians because the Atlanteans were a menace to the E. Mediterranean, and the Athenians defeated them, ensuring the safety of the E. Med. trade routes or such.
  • The Egyptians had detailed knowledge of the land of Atlantis -as such, they must have had this information from personal experience or from the Atlanteans themselves. In any case, Atlantis was a culture with which the Egyptians had contact. Moreover, it was so powerful that it posed a threat to the "Cretan" sea, otherwise known as the E. Med.
  • The Athenians no longer remembered this action of theirs, but only recalled the names of the combatants, not the actual action. The Egyptians are reminding them of this action.

Going just with this information, Atlantis could not be VNSP.
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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 14:52

Herr leave ,out athens and it history all together and what story is there in 600 bc.?

I think the greeks borrow the story just as they did with Deucalion  making the story their own. 

Deucalion's parallels with Noah and with Utnapishtin.

Maju could be right of the ten tombs( they could be the frist kings)  their desendants for many generations ruled over the diver islands, the story says it took generations of many kings to build the capital city. The city that sank was near gades. Tartessos.

 

 

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 19:51
Originally posted by Ulf Richter

Maju

 [Crit119d]:" and thither they assembled every fifth year, and then alternately every sixth year--giving equal honor to both the even and the odd--and when thus assembled they took counsel about public affairs and inquired if any had in any way transgressed and gave judgement" (transl.Bury).

The topics of the assemblies were nearly the same as in the case of the Etruscans. Perhaps it was the old tradition of the Atlanteans which gave the pattern for the Etruscan meetings.

It will be indeed a serious task to find out the 10 different organized culture substrates from the megalithic time which could have been the 10 Atlantean kingdoms. Up to now you mentioned three: the VNSP, El Agar, England.  I think we can consider also the Guadalquivier delta/Bay of Cadiz region, where the catastrophe has abandoned most of the remnants.



El Argar is not Megalithic. It started as heir of Los Millares and therefore was Megalithic in the sense of using tholoi but then they dropped the tradition and adopted Greek burial in pithos.

One problem in talking about such a large league (comprising almost all Western Europe and North Africa) would be that their members seem not just to be too different but also change.

I think it's much more reasonable to consider that the 10 kings just ruled diferent parts of VNSP under the hegemony of "the Atlas", who was the true leader. Only "his twin" "the Gadeirus" of the southern penisula would be somehow comparable in power to the Lord of Zambujal.

...

I find odd that 5-6 years organization of the meetings. We know now that Atlantic peoples of that age, notably VNSP, used a calendar based in the figures 4 and 19, which were useful for predicting the Lunar ecclipses. 19 is not divisible by any ammount of 5 and 6, it could be (6x2+7) or (5x3+4) or (4x4+3). Another distortion?



But how is it with the region of Brittany/France? How with northern and central Germany where the very sophisticated cultures called "Roessen" (4900-4200 BC), "Michelsberg" (4200-3500 BC) and "Wartberg"(3500-2800 BC) existed? The "Bell Beaker People" are found in Germany between 2600 and 2000 BC, and an older Beaker Culture between 2900 and 2400 BC which already used copper tools beside the usual flint and stone tools. 



The Bell-Beaker phenomenon: they are no people, not even a cohessive normal culture, but rather they seem a trading guild. They appear always among continuous local cultures and they seem to be of the local "races" as well - they are not a people at all but a strange fashion that seem to show a trading network of some sort.

They seem originary from Central Europe (though this is not totally clear) c. 2300 BCE, they stabilish they headquarters in VNSP c. 2100 BCE and "return" to Bohemia c. 1900 BCE, while the Iberian Bell Beaker diversifies its centers (in Los Millares and Ciempozuelos, near Madrid, but keeping one center in Palmela). The "return" of the Bell Beaker to Central Europe is coincident with an apparent recolonization of what's now West Germany (definitive Indo-Europeization?) and the gradual loss of Megalithic culture in France (Artenac) but without a cultural change in any other aspects: proto-Aquitanians keep dominating the landscape of France for a while yet.

The overall timeline of the Bell Beaker can be simplified to 2300-1700, according to the chronology I use and I find acceptable in most sites (you know that this question of the chronologies is somehow misty - depending on who writes). Phases:
  1. 2300-2100: The first phase is confuse but probably generated in Bohemia and nearby regions (Austria, Moravia) by influence of Vucedol. The typical ware is the corded beaker, which shows the imprint of the IE Corded Ware culture (aka Battle Axe people) that then still dominated Central and Northern Europe. It expanded via the Rhone and the Ocean into Western Europe.
  2. 2100-1900: This phase is centered in VNSP, where the International (or Maritime) style of beaker is produced. It shows a great increas of the exchanges in SW Europe and specially between SE France (Treilles group) and VNSP, following a route that seems to anticipate the route of Santiago and the route of Silver of later dates, a route that was also previously used in the difussion and persistence of Megalithism.
  3. 1900-1700: This phase brings the centrality back to Bohemia (now very clearly). While Iberian Bell-Beaker now shows several centers. It is followed by the early Bronze Age. VNSP will keep having Bell Beaker until the end (or so I think): the same that El Argar is divided in A and B, around 1500, depending on the burial type (tholos or pithos), VNSP is divided in I and II depedneing on wether there is or not Bell Beaker.

The other cultures you mention (Rssen, Michelsberg, etc.) belong to a very complex scenary of the Danubian macro-culture (c. 5200-2400 BCE - Neolithic and Chalcolithic), which seems to be just wiped out c. 2400 BCE by the double expansion of Indo-Europeans from the East and Aquitanians from the West. The border between these two macro-cultures is stable around the Rhin until c. 1300 BCE. The expansion of Aquitanians seems rather a counter-attack (Danubians had been infiltering Armorica and further south) in what were probably bloody conflicts. Guess this space is too small to deal with all that.

In any case neither Rssen nor Michelsber are Megalithic. Only some of the offshots of Rssen are, probaly as a reaction to "Indo-Europeized" Michelsberg faction - this last is just my interpratation, of course.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 20:39
Originally posted by St. Francis of Assisi

Almost no theories on Atlantis deal with the essential question of how and why the Egyptians acquired the information, and why they told it to Solon.


That's a good point. I always assume that Greeks themselves or maybe their Philistine offshot told them. They could have found by interrogating the Sea Peoples POWs also, specially if they were basically Greeks, as I think. Or they could have found by an even easier way: asking the Lybians, who apparently wre implied in all the mess.

What I'm pretty sure is that the Pharaohs that were able to fight against and makepacts with the Hittites, were perfectly able to gather info about what was going on in the Med.




Just using common sense, and the clues within the text, we can arrive at the following conclusions about the nature of the story:

  • The conflict between Athens and Atlantis was the oldest mention the Egyptians had of Athens.


Or they say Athens for Greece (or pre-Dorian Greece), maybe even with the intention of complimenting their guest.


  • The Egyptians remembered this action of the Athenians because the Atlanteans were a menace to the E. Mediterranean, and the Athenians defeated them, ensuring the safety of the E. Med. trade routes or such.


That's not so clear. Egyptians seem worried about Mediterranean trade but specially about theior Lybian neighbours. For sure acquiring direct routes to the tin and other mineral sources of the Hesperides was an interesting matter for the Pharaohs but, considering that they did not made bronze, their interest may had been a lot less important.

Yet they were interested in geopolitical affairs logically. They could have also mingled Sea Peoples' invasions with the war of Atlantis... maybe the Egyptians records aren't so accurate, after all they did not know first hand for sure.


  • The Egyptians had detailed knowledge of the land of Atlantis -as such, they must have had this information from personal experience or from the Atlanteans themselves. In any case, Atlantis was a culture with which the Egyptians had contact. Moreover, it was so powerful that it posed a threat to the "Cretan" sea, otherwise known as the E. Med.


The Egyptians seem to have got some details... which could have been made up by the proverbial hot imagination of the sailors that told them about the semi-mythic city. Some could be true, others half-true and some could well be just fantasies. The Egyptians didn't go to the Far West to find out themselves for sure.

There's no reason to think that Atlantis posed any threat to the Eastern Med. All what Plato's narration says is that they advanced into the pillars up to the Thyrrhenian Sea (Sardinia probably, though maybe also other regions of Italy).

The rest is your speculation.


  • The Athenians no longer remembered this action of theirs, but only recalled the names of the combatants, not the actual action. The Egyptians are reminding them of this action.


They did not even recall any names of combatants - where do you get that from?

Greeks as a whole did keep a diffuse memory of all that war and it is reflected in the national myth that are the Labours of Herakles: a heroic presentation of the campaigns of "Argos" (Mycenae probably) under this divinized leader. This saga starts with local wars in Mainland Greece, escalates to interventions in Crete and Thrace and ends into the long distance campaign into an island of the Ocean, called Erythia.

When two more myths are added to fill the "sacred" figure of 12 and represent the divinization of Herakles by overcoming Death (related to the mysteric cult of Dyonisos), a 11th labour is added,w hich is no other that a naif parallel narration of the campaign of the Far West.

Greeks had memory, Athenians as such maybe not.



Going just with this information, Atlantis could not be VNSP.


Going with all this analysis, Atlantis must be VNSP (or so I think).

Guess we could be bouncig heads for decades on our diferent iterpretation. But one thing is clear to me:

... they held sway in our direction over the country within the pillars as far as Egypt and Tyrrhenia.

That's all they had within the pillars (which can only be read as Gibraltar Strait): exactly what Megalithism reached to: Sardinia/Italy and North Africa.

Full stop.


NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2006 at 09:53

Or it could have been simpley this navel war threating the trade in the Med of 600 bc , when the story was spoke of and recorded in Egyptian history.  you know the anicent greeks and some of their made up heros.This way it made all of athens and their Gods heros.

 

http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/history3.html

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