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  Quote Anujkhamar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Kashmir
    Posted: 10-Apr-2006 at 12:33
I never said all. All im saying is that you can't put it down to religion to see which way they're going to. There are other things, like the reasons i have stated above.

I am interested in knowing however how you think the Pakistani army can beat ours (you said something similar in a previous post). I hounestly want to see this from a Pakistani point of view
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2006 at 13:44

Originally posted by Anujkhamar

I never said all. All im saying is that you can't put it down to religion to see which way they're going to. There are other things, like the reasons i have stated above.

You didnt state any reasons above except your own feeling that Muslims Kashmiris would vote for India in a plebiscite. You did try and manufacture something about Pathans invading Kashmir in 1947 and fighting the Army of Hari Singh (dictator of Kashmir in 1947). The details of what really happened are below. The summary is

  • local uprising began in Poonch (region of Kashmir) in 1947 against the Hindu ruler of Kashmir
  • Poonch commanders fight the Dogra Army (Army of Hindu ruler), and ask Pathans to help
  • Pathans come and help Poonch resistance fight the Dogra Army.

In 1947, two subcontinent regions were invaded by mainly India on the grounds that they had a majority Hindu population but a ruler that was Muslim and acceded to Pakistan under the partition agreement. One was Hyderabad whose ruler had decided to accede to Pakistan, though his people were majority Hindu. In the end, Hyderabad was taken by force by India. Similarly Kashmir was/is a Muslim majority state being ruled by a Hindu (Hari Singh), who appeared to be leaning towards India. These sort of pre emptive invasions were nothing unusual at the time, and would not have been possible without the compliance of the Kashmiri/Hyderbadi people. The important point about the Pathans going into Kashmir to help liberate it from HariSingh, was that they were invited into Kashmir by the resistance - they only faced resistance from the Dogra Army of the Hari Singh. The Pathans acted independently of the Pakistan government - the Pakistan government Army was ill equipped and underpowered as the country had just formed when these events were occurring. Later on the Indian Army rolled into Kashmir (which of course was much larger and better equipped than the Pathan tribes), and that led to the Line of Control being formed. The Pathans were replaced by Pakistan Army soldiers.

There is plenty of evidence that the Poonch resistance invited the Pathans in to Kashmir (the Indian side) to help in the rebellion against Hari Singh's Dogra Army.

The majority of the Muslim Kashmiris that served in the British Indian forces during WWII were from Poonch or Mirpur. this is cited in the book "Danger in Kashmir" by Josef Korbel (p.55). Hari Singh in July, 1947, fearing an uprising once the British had left asked these Poonchis to give up their weapons, which most of them did. However, the weapons ended up in the hands of the Dogra Army and other groups, so the Poonch people needed to get their hands on weapons, the most obvious place was from NWFP. From there, they made contact with the Pathans and invited them into Kashmir to participate in the Poonch resistance. "This laid the basis for direct contact between the members of the Poonch resistance and the tribesmen who lived in the strip of mountainous tribal territory bordering Pakistan and Afghanistan (p-41)(Victoria Schofield in her book Kashmir in Conflict : India, Pakistan and the Unending War)

Globalsecurity.org would not be biased towards Pakistan judging by its past records but even they do not deny what I just said -

  • it was an indigenous revolt in Poonch.
  • The Pathans were invited in by Poonch resistance commanders.

During the uncertain times surrounding partition in 1947, an entirely indigenous revolt against the rule of the Maharaja broke out in the Kashmiri town of Poonch.

According to the findings of Alastair Lamb it seems that a few resistance commanders in Poonch had toyed with the idea of getting assistance from Pathan tribes in the North-West Frontier. Pathans had a reputation for being vicious fighters but not very disciplined, even in their home region. Kashmiri rebels in Pooch, unlike the Pakistani authorities, had not anticipated the level of fierce brutality the Pathan tribes would employ. Lamb points out that as a result of the prospects of Pathan intervention: More experienced Pakistani soldiers and politicians who were aware of what was brewing were seriously alarmed.[12] Unfortunately, however, once contacted for assistance, it was too late to turn them back. Kolodner notes that: the Pathans had mobilized for battle and little could stop them from joining it.[13] Thus, Contrary to the claims of some pro-Indian writers, it seems unlikely that Pakistan was involved in sending the Pathans to Kashmir in order to capture the territory without using the Pakistani army.[14]

Thus, just like the previous and current Palestinian Intifidahs, the Kashmiri rebellion was undoubtedly popular and indigenous.

http://www.globalresearch.org/view_article.php?aid=461136933 

It's a good article from globalresearch, seems balanced for once. 

As for atrocities, I would say that Hari Singh was never liked by Muslim Kashmiris more so than the Pathans who never considered Kashmir as their homeland. The following books written at the time clearly show that it was the Dogra Army (Hari Singh's) that was committing atrocities in Kashmir). Ian Stephens, editor of Calcutta based "The Statesman" newspaper noted in his book Pakistan that on 10th October 1947, London Times gave news of such atrocities by the Dogra Army. There is also the date of November 6th which most true Kashmiris will remember.

"Farida Behanji in a statement here yesterday said that the best way to pay tributes to the martyrs of Jammu of November 6, 1947 is to continue the on-going freedom struggle. She said November 6 is a very sad day in Kashmiris history when thousands of innocent citizens of Jammu were martyred by Dogra army and Hindu extremists. Thousands of Jammu citizens were loaded into vehicle by dogra army on this pretext of transporting them to Pakistan but were mercilessly slaughtered in the jungles on the way."

http://www.infopak.gov.pk/news/kashnews/kashnews2004/kash_no v06_2004.htm 

http://www.hizbmedia.com/BBC.htm 


I am interested in knowing however how you think the Pakistani army can beat ours (you said something similar in a previous post). I hounestly want to see this from a Pakistani point of view

Where did I say the Pakistan Army could beat the Indian Army. India is 6 times bigger than Pakistan with 6 times the money and manpower - yet I think in a conventional war Pakistan wont be able to be defeated by India.



Edited by TeldeInduz
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  Quote Anujkhamar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2006 at 18:04
i must have missread it then. By conventional war do you mean non-nukes?

I agree with you to a certain extent in the sense that India doesnt have the money to beat Pakistan. The only way to beat Pakistan would be to invade it completly, and well obviously enough neither country has the money to do it (vice-versa). But i do feel that in every non nuclear war we will come on top until the inevitable ceasefire, as we have more money, more soldiers, more reserves etc

I mean its not as if either country has "super soldiers" as the films may portray. as i said, my mistake on this part then.


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  Quote Anujkhamar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2006 at 05:50

Just thought this would be usefull, the voice of Kashmiri's, from a neutral source:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/south_asia/02/voices_f rom_kashmir/html/default.stm

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  Quote Rajput Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2006 at 15:40

Originally posted by Voices from Kashmir

Elections have been declared and we are being asked to cast our vote. In all these past years, in previous elections, I haven't seen a single candidate.

Nobody has come here to ask us to cast our vote for them. That's how much they care for us.

Why would they ask people like this Radhakrishnan fellow to vote for them, these people are not of their religion or race so therefore they are left out of the picture.  The next step the Indian Government should take is to transfer dalits and other indigenous people into Jammu & Kashmir or else it will be too late.  The incompetent leaders in the govt. should be replaced by people like Lal Bahadur Shastri!  This man even though being a brahmin by caste was truly an Indian Soldier by his deeds!



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  Quote Anujkhamar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2006 at 16:07
Well personally rajput i reckon our government needs an overhaul. We need new blood and not some 80 year old politicians that make our country look weak
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  Quote Anujkhamar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2006 at 08:57
An injured woman being carried to a hospital in Jammu following the attack in Doda
The attack precedes talks between India's government and separatists
Suspected Islamic militants have killed at least 22 Hindus and wounded 10 others in a raid in a remote area of Indian-controlled Kashmir, police say.

Police said the victims were taken from their homes in the mountainous Doda district before being shot.

No group has yet said it carried out the attack, the worst since a ceasefire between India and Pakistan in 2003.

More than 60,000 people have been killed since an armed separatist insurgency began in Kashmir in 1989.

QUICK GUIDE

News of Sunday's attack in Doda district emerged only on Monday.

It came ahead of a meeting between moderate separatist Kashmiri leaders and Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh planned for Wednesday in Delhi.

Mr Singh was swift to condemn the killings, saying people in the state of Jammu and Kashmir had "rejected and rebuffed terrorists repeatedly".

'Massacre'

Police Inspector-General Sheesh Pal Vaid said the "pre-planned attack" took place in the remote village of Thawa, about 170km (100 miles) from the city of Jammu.

"The militants forced their victims from three villages into the house of the village chieftain of Kalhand and then shot them dead from close-range," he told the news agency AFP.

Villagers went to a nearby army camp to seek help, but by the time the troops had returned on Monday morning the assailants had gone, he said.

The injured were taken to hospital in Doda.

One survivor of the attack said the militants had come in the night.

"They took one man from each house. The others they told to go inside," the man told Sahara News television channel, Reuters news agency reports.

"They said they would set us free later. After going some distance, they started beating us up and then opened fire."

Jammu and Kashmir chief secretary Vijay Bakaya described the killings as a "massacre" in an interview with Reuters.

On Sunday, police found the bodies of four Hindu cattle grazers who had been abducted in the nearby Udhampur district.

An official told AFP there was still no trace of five other people abducted at the same time.

Kashmir talks

The BBC's Altaf Hussein, in the Jammu and Kashmir summer capital, Srinagar, says that at Wednesday's meeting the Kashmiri leaders are expected to give the Indian government a road map for a resolution of the Kashmir dispute.

Indian intelligence services had warned of an increase in militant attacks in the lead-up to the talks.

Both the Indian and Pakistani armies have observed a ceasefire since 2003 along the de facto border that divides the Kashmir valley, but the conflict between Indian security forces and Kashmiri militants continues.

India accuses Pakistan of failing to dismantle training camps for militants on its soil despite a peace process launched by the two countries more than two years ago.

Pakistan says India is going slow on resolving the dispute on Kashmir, which both countries claim in its entirety.

After talks in January, Indian foreign secretary Shyam Saran accused Islamabad of not doing enough to prevent militants entering Indian-administered Kashmir.

He warned any attacks on India could affect the peace process.

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  Quote Rajput Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2006 at 10:20

"They took one man from each house. The others they told to go inside," the man told Sahara News television channel, Reuters news agency reports.

"They said they would set us free later. After going some distance, they started beating us up and then opened fire."

 

 



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  Quote Anujkhamar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2006 at 12:17
Originally posted by TeldeInduz

Originally posted by Rajput

who have been slaughtered and exiled from their homes by insurgents over the years. 

This is very debatable.



Well Telde, i've given you a link showing pandits being killed. But then again, i suppose these were also hired by the Indian army?
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  Quote Anujkhamar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2006 at 15:08
Hizbul Majahidin are now blaming it on Indian Intelligence agents (the article has been updated since).

Which leads to the following:
1)Either it was actually Indian intelligence
2) It was Hizbul and they are now denying it to create chaos and distrust
3) it was not hizbul nor Indian intelligence, but another group, who will not come out as they have already been covered by Hizbul's coments.

I believe its obvious which one your going to go for Telde, after all, you want to believe its the Indian intelligence, probably about as much as i want to believe it was millitants


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  Quote Rajput Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2006 at 16:17

Originally posted by Anujkhamar

I believe its obvious which one your going to go for Telde, after all, you want to believe its the Indian intelligence, probably about as much as i want to believe it was millitants

Who has more to gain by carrying out such an act? 

a) The Pakistan backed extremists who by doing so will cause scare to the hindus and may even tempt them to leave the area causing the % of muslims in the state to swell up even higher than ever before.

b) The Indians, who by doing so will alienate themselves from the hindu population and not even gain a legitimate amount of global interest in the whole issue.

 



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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2006 at 09:55
Originally posted by Rajput

Originally posted by Anujkhamar

I believe its obvious which one your going to go for Telde, after all, you want to believe its the Indian intelligence, probably about as much as i want to believe it was millitants

Who has more to gain by carrying out such an act? 

a) The Pakistan backed extremists who by doing so will cause scare to the hindus and may even tempt them to leave the area causing the % of muslims in the state to swell up even higher than ever before.

b) The Indians, who by doing so will alienate themselves from the hindu population and not even gain a legitimate amount of global interest in the whole issue

or

c) The Indians, who try to disrupt the peace process by blaming the attack on Hizb.

a) can be discounted, because the statistics show that since 1947, the number of Hindus is up 3% in Kashmir, the number of Muslims is down 1%.

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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2006 at 09:59
Originally posted by Anujkhamar

Originally posted by TeldeInduz

Originally posted by Rajput

who have been slaughtered and exiled from their homes by insurgents over the years. 

This is very debatable.



Well Telde, i've given you a link showing pandits being killed. But then again, i suppose these were also hired by the Indian army?

Your guess is as good as mine.

But Pakistan had recently offered to withdraw its weapons from Kashmir, only to be rejected by India. Perhaps this was perpetrated by India to show the need for Indian weaponry in Kashmir?

India rejects Pak. proposal to shift weapons from Kashmir

Islamabad, April 28 (AP): India has rejected a Pakistani proposal that all heavy weapons be removed from disputed Kashmir, a Pakistani official said.

However, the two sides agreed that they would not set up new military posts along the heavily militarized frontier, known as the Line of Control, in the Himalayan region.

Senior officials of the nuclear-armed rivals held talks in Islamabad on Thursday on confidence-building measures in conventional weaponry, as part of a peace process aimed at ending a half-century of hostility.

Tariq Usman Haider, head of the Pakistan delegation, said Pakistan proposed moving all heavy weapons above 120mm caliber from Jammu and Kashmir. India did not accept the proposal, saying it was its sovereign right to decide where to deploy its forces, he said.

"We have made a very serious and sincere proposal to reduce the threat along the Line of Control, and that is ... redeployment by both sides of artillery, guns, rockets and mortars above 120mm,'' he told reporters.

"The Indian side was not ready to accept this,'' he said.

At an earlier joint news conference, Dilip Sinha, chief of the Indian delegation, was asked about Pakistan's hope for demilitarization in Kashmir, and he stressed that deployment of troops was India's "sovereign'' decision.

"We have made our position quite clear that the deployment of force in any part of India is the sovereign right of the country and it is taken in conjunction with the security situation,'' Sinha said.

Pakistan and India have fought two of their three wars since independence in 1947 over Kashmir, which is divided between them but claimed by both. India accuses Pakistan of helping Islamic militants to cross the frontier to launch attacks on Indian security forces in Kashmir. Pakistan denies it.

Thursday's talks follow two days of discussions over nuclear-confidence-building measures _ part of a wide-ranging dialogue initiated in early 2004 to try to resolve their long-standing difference over Kashmir and other issues.

Haider said that at the talks on nuclear confidence-building, the two sides exchanged four drafts for an agreement aimed at preventing any unauthorized or accidental use of nuclear weapons.

He criticized a deal U.S. President George W. Bush signed with India last month that would provide New Delhi with civilian nuclear technology.

" We have made it plain, our feeling is that this is not a positive development in terms of strategic stability,'' Haider said. ``We will certainly maintain our credible deterrent, whatever developments may take place across our border.''

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/001200604280922.htm

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  Quote Anujkhamar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2006 at 11:11
I swear that's old news... but i do feel we should atleast reduce heavy artillary. I mean, keeping it there is wasting rupees, India and Pakistan are unlikely to go to war this decade.

I have found a neutral source for Kashmir, a lecturer from the London School of Economics and Political Sciences. It is after all one of the most respected universities in the world (and i have plans to apply there for an undergraduate course):

http://www.fathom.com/course/10701013/index.html

go through the seminars
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2006 at 11:19

Originally posted by Anujkhamar

I swear that's old news...

It was rejected last week.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/world/20060427-0437-pakis tan-india.html 

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  Quote Anujkhamar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2006 at 13:02
and for me one week is old news
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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2006 at 22:50

Originally posted by Anujkhamar


The only way to beat Pakistan would be to invade it completly, and well obviously enough neither country has the money to do it (vice-versa).

Even if money was not an option, to invade is is not the real art of war, but to hold is.

India would need a lot more more than money and material resources to hold.

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  Quote Rajput Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2006 at 09:46

Originally posted by malizai_

Even if money was not an option, to invade is  not the real art of war, but to hold is.  India would need a lot more than money and material resources to hold.

Agreed, they have the support of one segment of a key local populus... just like the Israelis used the bedouins.

"Thus those skilled in war subdue the enemy's army without battle .... They conquer by strategy."



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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2006 at 10:42
Originally posted by Rajput

Agreed, they have the support of one segment of a key local populus... just like the Israelis used the bedouins.

What am i missing?

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  Quote Rajput Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2006 at 11:03

Originally posted by malizai_

What am i missing?

'India would need a lot more than money and material resources to hold.'

They can hold man trust me especially when this key populus is with them, I think India doesnt want the hassel of occupying muslims.  I personally would like Pakistan divided into 2 halves: west going to Afghanistan and East coming to India then India would perform a genocide and afghans would get their Pashtunistan and everyone is happy.

 



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