Kashmir from a Neutral perspective....

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/kashmir.htm

The full article being (note date at bottom)

23 Kashmiri Hindus Gunned Down on Republic Day Eve

Terrorists shot dead 23 civilians in the village of Wandhama, near the town of Ganderbal in Jammu and Kashmir. The victims, all civilians, included four children, nine women and 10 men. Wandhama, a village at the foothills of the mountains just 30 km outside Srinagar, boasted four families of Kashmiri Hindu Pandits, numbering around 24. A boy is the only survivor of the tragedy. The attackers also torched a small Hindu temple and blew up a house.

According to one reporter (Mukhtar Ahmad), the survivor is 14-year old Vinod Kumar Dhar. According to his report two dozen-odd militants dropped in for tea, around 2030 hours on 25 January at the village. "When they came, they assured us they wouldn't harm the four Pandit families... one Urdu-speaking gunman asked for tea and my mother made it for all of them and served it to them herself... then time passed, and other militants began entering the other three houses of my relatives," Dhar recalls. Dhar was in the upper story of the house, fighting sleep and waiting for the "guests" to leave before retiring for the night, when the death-rattle of automatic weapons broke out. "I heard the cries of my mother and sisters, I heard the sounds of shots from the homes of my relatives as well... I hid upstairs, scared they would search the house... they didn't, but two militants set it on fire before leaving... I came down, but all I saw was bodies lying scattered everywhere... my mother, my sisters, relatives... all, dead... when I went out, I saw the other three houses burning, a temple near our home was also in flames..."

Ahmad report goes on to quote a local. "These families were happy here in the village, they never migrated despite all the troubles, they always said they would be part of our community, would live and die with us," said a grief stricken Ghulam Rasool, native of Wandhama. "I had been pressing them, saying they should migrate to Jammu, they never listened, they said they loved their village and wanted to stay there. And since we never had any problems here before, I thought they were right."

Twenty three funeral pyres were erected, bearing the bodies of the victims. And Dhar, lone survivor of the carnage, went tearfully from one to the other with burning brand in hand, consigning his mother, his sisters, father and relatives to the sacred flames -- which rose against the backdrop of the four torched houses where, a day earlier, four families of Kashmiri pundits had lived in peace and amity with their neighbours. "Where will I go now?" a sobbing Dhar asked as he was led away, out of range of the scorching flames. "There is no one for me, no one to look after me, no one to care for our fields, our orchard and cattle...there is no one left for me..."

Kashmiri Pundits Outraged

The Kashmiri pundit (Hindu) community all over the world has reacted with shock and outrage at the incident. Before the beginning of militancy in the state of Jammu & Kashmir in 1989, the Valley had over 3,00,000 pundits. Today, it is estimated that there are just a few hundred left. The pundits are the original inhabitants of the Valley.

The day after the incident, agitating Kashmiri Pandits clashed with police in the Capital, New Delhi, when they broke barricades and tried to force their way to the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC). At least 11 Kashmiri Pandits, including ''Panun Kashmir`` convenor Dr Agnishekhar, were injured when they were hit by water cannon. Dr Agnishekhar fell unconscious and rushed to the All India Institute of Medical Sciences. Earlier, all the prominent Pandit organisations asked the Centre to dismiss the Farooq Abdullah government in Jammu and Kashmir and demanded a fresh look to their rehabilitation in view of the January 25/26 massacre of Pandits in Wandhama village in the chief minister`s constituency. ''We unanimously reiterate our loss of faith in the Farooq Abdullah government`s competence to control the situation in Kashmir, where the remaining Pandits are butchered by militants as the administration watches on,`` said Panun Kashmir Convenor Dr Agnishekhar.

In Jammu, the winter capital of the state of Jammu & Kashmir, an agitating mob set on fire two trucks and students clashed with the police leaving four persons injured in sporadic violence as a general strike, called to protest against the killing of 23 Kashmiri Pandits, evoked a partial response in Jammu region on 27 January.

In a press release, the Indo-American Kashmir Forum (IAKF) in Washington D.C. condemned the carnage and demanded military protection. "The details of the latest carnage are of unprecedented proportions. On the eve of India&;s 48th Republic day, January 25, 1998, a band of armed Islamic terrorists fighting the Jihad in Kashmir entered Wandhama village in Ganderbal district, about 20 miles north of Srinagar, the State capital. In the village, a predominantly Muslim area, the militants sought out the four Pandit (Hindu minority) families living there. Additionally, another Pandit family was visiting the village on this unfortunate day. By the time the Islamic insurgents were through, 23 Pandits lay dead from the five families that included 10 men, 9 women and 4 children. Of these, 17 were gunned down including a one year old boy who received 18 bullets. The remaining 6 victims consisting of 4 women and 2 children were burnt alive. Following the massacre, the militants torched their homes and the nearby Hindu Temple, before escaping into the vastness of night. No group has so far claimed responsibility for this crime against humanity.

The Indo-American Kashmir Forum joins our apex organization in North America, the Kashmiri Overseas Association (KOA), in condemning this brutal outrage on the Pandit minority in Kashmir. The significance of this massacre, coming on the eve of a national celebration and in the constituency of Dr.Farooq Abdullah, the Chief Minister, is a further indication of the evil designs by fanatic Islamic warriors armed and supported by Pakistan. But even more importantly, it undermines any claims by the Central government in Delhi or by the State government that normalcy is returning in Kashmir. Indeed, since the return of the elected government in the state, Kashmiri Pandits have been the targets of three massacres, one in Sangrampura (March 1997), the other in Gool Gulabgarh (June 1997), and now the latest massacre in Wandhama (January 1998). Therefore, any efforts by the Abdullah government to urge Pandit refugees to return to the State without first acknowledging and mitigating their security and related concerns lends credence to the charge that the State government has utterly failed to respond to Pandit concerns, needs and demands. And the posture of the Central government in playing a role of a silent spectator in this political tussle between the Abdullah government and the Pandits is both deplorable and shocking. Kashmiri Pandits, loyal Indian citizens, feel betrayed and the latest massacre only proves what was inevitable given the attitude of the Central and State governments towards their security needs, and their political and human rights."

Gujral visits Wandhama

Prime Minister Inder Kumar Gujral on 28 January joined the mourners in Kashmir's Wandhama village. Amidst tight security, the prime minister, accompanied by Governor General K V Krishna Rao (retired), Chief Minister Dr Farooq Abdullah and Union Minister for Environment Saifuddin Soz, arrived in the afternoon after inaugurating the National Winter Games in Gulmarg.

"I have come here to express my grief on behalf of the nation," he said, "The people of Punjab had unitedly defeated the nefarious designs of the enemy. The people of Kashmir will also defeat the designs.''  Gujral assured 14-year-old Vinod Kumar Dhar, the lone survivor of the massacre, that the government would bear the cost of his education and upbringing. Speaking to a group of Kashmiri Pandits who had come down from nearby villages, the premier said adequate security would be provided in all vulnerable areas. Reports from Ganderbal, meanwhile, said that many Kashmiri Pandits in the area were preparing to leave for Jammu.

Foreign Mercenaries Responsible

Jammu & Kashmir Chief Minister, Dr Farooq Abdullah, flew to the village where the carnage took place. He said that such acts of terror were guided and masterminded by Pakistan and militant groups sponsored by ISI. "Where were those making noises about human rights violations?" Let them come and see now who is committing the human rights violations," he said.  He said that his government would take all set ups to ensure security of the minorities in the State."Kashmir Pandits were part of all of us and no one can change that fact," he added.

Police squarely blamed the pro- Pakistan Hizbul Mujahideen for the killings. However, the army did not disclose the identity of the group. A spokesman of the army said the group would be neutralised soon. He said: ''It is known that this group consisted of 10 to 17 foreign militants supported by some local ultra. The local militants operating with the group are known to have certain links with certain political leaders of that area and is because of these political links that they have certain amount of confidence in carrying out such acts. The wide condemnation of this cowardly act by Hurriyat Conference, Jamaat-e-Islami and other parties is a positive sign. What is needed now is that these culprits be exposed by the Hurriyat and Jamaat who have all along supported them and even fueled them."

Algeria type situation Likely, warns former JKLF Leader

Hashim Qureshi Chairman of Jammu & Kashmir Democratic Liberation Party express his deep sadness and anger against killing of 23 Kashmiri Pandits in Ganderbal on January the 26. Hashim Qureshi condemned and said in his press statement: " These kind of inhuman and barbaric actions are not only grass violation of human rights but also action of wild boar against humanity, it proves, that these kind of people who are killing women, men and children are enemies of the Kashmiri people and enemies of the Kashmiri struggle. Actions like, blowing up human bodies and burning down the religious worships should be called "an act of a beast against civilised people". Hashim Qureshi warns the people of Kashmir that these kind of unhuman killings are the beginning of an Algerian kind of massacres against innocent people. He said; " If we Kashmiris will not stand up against these kind of barbaric acts, it can be happen anywhere and with everyone.

NHRC to probe Wandhama massacre

The National Human Rights Commission on Wednesday decided to conduct an on- the-spot investigation into the Wandhama massacre. After hearing representatives of the Kashmiri people, the Commission's three- member bench, headed by Justice M N Venkatachaliah, asked its director general (investigation) to proceed to the spot immediately.

The Commission also issued notices to Union Home Secretary B P Singh and the chief secretary and director general of police of Jammu and Kashmir on the safety of the minorities in the valley. The other Pandits should be given 'adequate protection'. And the state should report back what security measures it had adopted. The Commission would hear the matter again after receiving the government's action-taken report as well as the one from its own investigators.

It asked the state to take special care of Vinod Kumar Dhar, the lone survivor of the incident. The boy's closest relatives should be located and he should be entrusted to their care. The expense of his upkeep should be borne by the government.

Date: 26 January 1998

http://www.subcontinent.com/sapra/research/terrorism/tr_1998 _01_002_s.html

Please disprove anyway I am "biased". So far not one of you have. I have no reason to be biased or pro Kashmiri on this issue. I do not mind if Kashmir goes for independence, the sooner it's resolved the better. Given the choice between India and Pakistan in a plebiscite, Kashmiris would vote Pakistan guaranteed which is why India has avoided it. Given the choice between India, Pakistan and independence, most would vote independence. I do not care what they vote, only that they be given the vote. 

Most of my articles have been from neutral sources, or pro Indian ones. Show me some that are from anti Indian websites, any incidences in fact that are disputed by the neutral medias, just point them out. 

I didnt show articles claiming that one Kashmiri "Pandit" was taking up arms against Indian forces in Kashmir. I showed an article that said 50 of them had taken up arms against the Indian security forces and paramilitaries in only 3 small districts alone!!

Intelligence agencies have so far identified 40-50 Hindu youth who have taken up arms in Doda, Rajouri and Poonch

http://www.hardnewsmedia.com/portal/2005/09/111 

I agree that Hindu pandits have relocated to Srinigar, Kashmiri Muslims have been forced out of their homes by Indian Army soldiers and paramilitary squads. Both Hindu and Muslim Kashmiris in other words have suffered from this, from both sides in the conflict.

Nope. There has been no major change in the demographics of Kashmir, though according to all neutral websites the proportion of Muslims in Kashmir has decreased (though they still remain in the majority).

Currently, the Muslim proportion in Jammu & Kashmir is 67% according to the 2001 census

http://india_resource.tripod.com/religion-demographics.html 

(pro-Indian website or not?)

According to the Indian census 2001, 67% of 10 million is 6.7 million Muslims in Indian Kashmir.

http://censusindia.net/profiles/jk.html 

Azad/Pakistani Kashmir has 4 million people, mainly Muslims.

http://kashmirstudygroup.com/awayforward05/p6_kj_popdist.htm l 

• That makes perhaps a total of 10.7 million out of 14 million people in Kashmir Muslim or about 76% Muslim.

In other words, the Muslim population of Kashmir has decreased by more than a percent, since 1941, and this was excluding Ladakh which would have decreased the percentage more.

Hindus form 66% of Jammu and 4% of Kashmir Valley as shown.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/south_asia/03/kashmir_ future/html/default.stm

Hindus in Jammu

66% of the total in Jammu (4.5 million) = 2.97 million Hindus in Jammu.

Hindus in Kashmir Valley

4% of the total people in Kashmir Valley (5.5 million)= 0.22 million Hindus

Total Hindus n Kashmir today = 2.97 + 0.22 = 3.2 million.

Total population of Kashmir = 14 million.

• So Percentage Hindu in Kashmir = 3.2 million of 14 million= 23% Hindu (excluding Ladakh)

Currently, Kashmir is 76% Muslim, and 23% Hindu according to 2001 census data.

In the 1941 census there was a 77% Muslim portion and 20% Hindus.

http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/research/rp2004/rp04-02 8.pdf 

(neutral website or not?)

So over the last 50 years, the percentage of Muslims in Kashmir has decreased by dropped slightly, the percentage of Hindus has increased by 3%. Can you dispute this?

Interestingly, the demographics of Kashmir in 1981 (pre-fighting) have not changed much by comparison with today. Fighting started in 1989, so the Kashmir Valley never had many Pandits anyway.

If you can dispute the figures given in the sites or calculations then do so.

Truckloads might be moving in, but the census figures do not show this. You can present your evidence to show this.

Then India has nothing to fear - let the people of Indian Kashmir vote in a plebiscite.

Post it up if you want, but if you're so sure you should support a plebiscite that would once and for all end any dispute.

I never said they would give it back. They can keep their part(s) of Kashmir. All the people there are Buddhists and ethnically more towards China anyway.

So how's your picture coming along that's going to wet everybodies Shalwars?  Dont tell me you bottled it.

The majority of this is all waffle. If you can show that Pakistani minorities are discriminated against anymoreso than Indian minorities then show it.

BELOW IS A LIST OF ALL KNOWN MUSLIM INSURGENT OUTFITS THAT ARE KILLING INNOCENT INDIAN CIVILIANS EVERY YEAR; THEIR AIM IS TO WIPE OUT ALL NON-MUSLIM MINORITIES IN JAMMU-KASHMIR AND TO MAKE IT AN ISLAMIC STATE.  I LEAVE ALL RATIONALE PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM TO FIGURE OUT WHO THE BAD GUY IS BASED ON THIS.  THIS IS SURELY A MATTER OF WORLD CONCERN AND SHOULD NOT BE LABELED AS A 'INDIA-PAKISTAN' ISSUE. THERE IS DEFINITELY A PATTERN AMONGST THESE 'PEOPLE'.

TeleIndus

what is the population density in buddhist areas

This is just absurd.

And? The Iraq elections allowed Iraqis in the US to vote. I dont see why anyone who is a citizen of Kashmir shouldnt be allowed to vote either.

In a vote you have the 4 million people in Azad Kashmir who'd vote for Pakistan in a choice between India or Pakistan.

______________________________________________________

In Indian occupied Kashmir (IOK), you have Kashmir Valley which is 95% Musim and has the highest number of people in the 3 areas of IOK (Kashmir Valley, Jammu and Ladakh = IOK. The figures for each area are as follows.

Kashmir Valley (pop. 5.5 million) = 95% Muslim - The Kashmir Valley people would vote for Pakistan in a choice between India and Pakistan

Jammu (pop. 4.4 million)  = 30% Muslim, 66% Hindu. Jammu would therefore go to India in a choice between Pakistan and India.

Ladakh (pop. 250,000 ) = 50% Muslim, 50% Buddhist. This may go either way, India or Pakistan, but will say it goes to India.

This situation is shown below. The present line of control is shown in red, the black line show the worst case scenario for Pakistan in a case of plebiscite with choice of India or Pakistan, in the three regions of IOK mentioned above. The worst case situation (for Pakistan) is that they get all of Azad Kashmir and also the Kashmir Valley (the most populated region of Kashmir).

Bits of Jammu have a higher Muslim percentage in them. Let's say Ladakh would vote to join India. If it's regional ethnicities to go by then the borders after a plebiscite same as above would be

So you see, even if you look at regions, going by religious variations in different parts of Kashmir, you'll get at the very least Kashmir Valley voting for Pakistan in a two choice plebiscite. This is what India would lose in a regional plebiscite, but in the most likely case scenario if a plebiscite is held (and the way it should be held), India would lose the whole of Kashmir in a plebiscite, since Kashmir is 76% Muslim.

Then India should have nothing to worry about, and a plebiscite could be called if you are so confident that India would win it. Why is a plebiscite not held?

Then India should hold a plebiscite if all the Muslim Kashmiris are going to choose India over Pakistan.