I have a large kashmiri community living in my town, they r always referred to by the govt as Pakistanis, although they r kashmiris from Free-Kashmir.

I have asked many, the question of union with India or pakistan. I have only heard two different answers.

1. Union with pakistan  50%
2. Independent Kashmir  50%

However, most of the latter opt for independence because they feel frustrated with the Pakistani Govt's insincerity towards that goal.

one question and one concern

Originally posted by Rajput  then again you've probably never met the likes of me, my grand father wouldnt even let a muslim touch his luggage at the train station.

question

 

R U A rajput?

If u r then there could be another reason Y ur grandfather didnt want his muslim brother to touch his luggage, it may have been because he didnt want to pass on any contagious diseases to this man.

After all rajputs fought alongside afghans against fellow hindu marathas. Ur great great grandfather could hve been one of those who did so.

Originally posted by Rajput INDIA IS NOT GOING TO GIVE IT UP WITHOUT WWIII

concern

how do u plan to bring the rest of the world into ur war?

Edited by malizai_

Originally posted by malizai_ R U A rajput? If u r then there could be another reason Y ur grandfather didnt want his muslim brother to touch his luggage, it may have been because he didnt want to pass on any contagious diseases to this man. After all rajputs fought alongside afghans against fellow hindu marathas. Ur great great grandfather could hve been one of those who did so.

Progeny of our HINDU - RAJPUT great-grandfathers :

 

Yes I'm a rajput not some mix breed mongrel.  The Rajputs fought against the marathas because the marathas were responsible for genocide against former, which they repeated on and off.  Times have changed and India is now more united than ever under the Hindu Faith!

how do u plan to bring the rest of the world into ur war?

Well first and foremost its not my war but yea you have China sitting pretty to the east and India just signed a Nuclear pact with the Americans, yea its gona get messy. Russia is not going to sit idle while they go at it and neither is North Korea, so its a recipe for WWIII.

Edited by Rajput

R all rajputs hindus, by the way?

Originally posted by malizai_ R all rajputs hindus, by the way?

Most of the Rajput kings are still all Hindu, some are Sikh and One is muslim, Ruler of Bhawalpur now in pakistan, but even they now claim arab descent.

The muslim rajputs converted to Islam mainly to keep their titles and lands under the afghans or mughals.  They are ostracized by the rest of the non-muslim rajputs since they had converted and were marrying their cousins (against hindu/sikh faiths).  Most Rajput kings were leniant when it came to religion, the sufi saint khwaja chisti even flourished his madrasa during the reign of Pithora Chauhan.  Most of the rajputs that converted to Islam are of the Sindh and Punjab regions and even though they'll tell you that they converted under sufi saints, the truth is that they converted to save their lands which is why they're not accepted as rajput anymore.  The duty of a rajput as a kshatriya is to defend ones dharma(religion) unto death.

 

                        

                    

 

Originally posted by Rajput  Ah, yes, your fortitude must be a mental carryover from "Tiger Gurpreet Singh's" last wrestling match, most likely watched from your armchair with all the enthusiasm of a kid riding his first bike. What can I say teldeinduz, if its testicular fortitude you're looking for then trust me, my people can help your people out because I know for a fact that yours will not have the ballocks to display such bravado in war.  "The Thermoplyae of 19th Century" - Battle of Saragarhi 21 sikh soldiers of the punjab regiment led by Ishar Singh defended a fort in the NWFP area of Pakistan against approximately 10,000 Orakzai and Afridi tribesmen.  All were awarded the Indian Order of Merit equivalent to the victoria cross. http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armycampaigns/indianca mpaigns/samana.htm

Interesting. But you missed out that there were some 4 forts, and that they kept the gates locked out of fear for letting in the tribals. Fortresses are very difficult to break into without heavy weaponry,  yet thousands of reinforcements were sent, who did not stay and fight..

On the 9th Sept the sentries on the eastern outposts saw something that caused great excitement thoughout the Samana fortifications. A large body of soldiers marching towards them under a British flag, about 2000 men of the Royal Irish Regiment, 2nd and 3rd Gurkhas, and 2nd Punjab Infantry commanded by Major-General Yeatman-Biggs.

Yeatman-Biggs feared that they would cut off his route back to Hangu, and as there was insufficient water to supply his men on the Samana, he decided to return.

Then later on..heavy weapons arrive (though I dont get why Yeatman-Biggs only just received news of the fighting when he had already launched an expedition there before)

Yeatman-Biggs received news of their plight and sent the 3rd Bengal Cavalry, a squadron of the 3rd Punjab Cavalry and four guns of the 9th Field Battery RA down the Miranzai Valley to give support to Fort Gulistan.

The Pathans in NWFP didnt take too kindly to colonialism..

Interesting. But you missed out that there were some 4 forts, and that they kept the gates locked out of fear for letting in the tribals.

 

 2 main forts and the one being discussed was a VERY small one in the middle. 

On the 9th Sept the sentries on the eastern outposts saw something that caused great excitement thoughout the Samana fortifications. A large body of soldiers marching towards them under a British flag, about 2000 men of the Royal Irish Regiment, 2nd and 3rd Gurkhas, and 2nd Punjab Infantry commanded by Major-General Yeatman-Biggs.

So whats your point?  The sikhs inside Saragarhi were still numbered to 21 and they fought to the last man; I'm pretty sure that the 'pathans' saw this as a humiliating battle for themselves .

The gate was forced at the same time and the 19 men fought a desperate hand-to-hand fight with their few remaining bullets and their bayonets. The sheer weight of numbers soon overwhelmed them and they were all killed.  Even the naik who had been wounded earlier shot four attackers from his sick-bed. The last man to die locked himself in the guardroom from where he managed to shoot 20 Pathans, but they set fire to the building and left him to burn to death.

The Pathans in NWFP didnt take too kindly to colonialism..

 I know my share of 'pathans' they're also notorious for switching sides, not staying true to their word and fleeing the battle field.  History has proven this more than once.

PS.  The topic is your testicular fortitude remember??....lets see that you of your people. 

23 Kashmiri Hindus Gunned Down on Republic Day Eve Terrorists shot dead 23 civilians in the village of Wandhama, near the town of Ganderbal in Jammu and Kashmir. The victims, all civilians, included four children, nine women and 10 men. Wandhama, a village at the foothills of the mountains just 30 km outside Srinagar, boasted four families of Kashmiri Hindu Pandits, numbering around 24. A boy is the only survivor of the tragedy. The attackers also torched a small Hindu temple and blew up a house. According to one reporter (Mukhtar Ahmad), the survivor is 14-year old Vinod Kumar Dhar. According to his report two dozen-odd militants dropped in for tea, around 2030 hours on 25 January at the village. "When they came, they assured us they wouldn't harm the four Pandit families... one Urdu-speaking gunman asked for tea and my mother made it for all of them and served it to them herself... then time passed, and other militants began entering the other three houses of my relatives," Dhar recalls. Dhar was in the upper story of the house, fighting sleep and waiting for the "guests" to leave before retiring for the night, when the death-rattle of automatic weapons broke out. "I heard the cries of my mother and sisters, I heard the sounds of shots from the homes of my relatives as well... I hid upstairs, scared they would search the house... they didn't, but two militants set it on fire before leaving... I came down, but all I saw was bodies lying scattered everywhere... my mother, my sisters, relatives... all, dead... when I went out, I saw the other three houses burning, a temple near our home was also in flames..." Ahmad report goes on to quote a local. "These families were happy here in the village, they never migrated despite all the troubles, they always said they would be part of our community, would live and die with us," said a grief stricken Ghulam Rasool, native of Wandhama. "I had been pressing them, saying they should migrate to Jammu, they never listened, they said they loved their village and wanted to stay there. And since we never had any problems here before, I thought they were right." Twenty three funeral pyres were erected, bearing the bodies of the victims. And Dhar, lone survivor of the carnage, went tearfully from one to the other with burning brand in hand, consigning his mother, his sisters, father and relatives to the sacred flames -- which rose against the backdrop of the four torched houses where, a day earlier, four families of Kashmiri pundits had lived in peace and amity with their neighbours. "Where will I go now?" a sobbing Dhar asked as he was led away, out of range of the scorching flames. "There is no one for me, no one to look after me, no one to care for our fields, our orchard and cattle...there is no one left for me..." Kashmiri Pundits Outraged The Kashmiri pundit (Hindu) community all over the world has reacted with shock and outrage at the incident. Before the beginning of militancy in the state of Jammu & Kashmir in 1989, the Valley had over 3,00,000 pundits. Today, it is estimated that there are just a few hundred left. The pundits are the original inhabitants of the Valley. The day after the incident, agitating Kashmiri Pandits clashed with police in the Capital, New Delhi, when they broke barricades and tried to force their way to the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC). At least 11 Kashmiri Pandits, including ''Panun Kashmir`` convenor Dr Agnishekhar, were injured when they were hit by water cannon. Dr Agnishekhar fell unconscious and rushed to the All India Institute of Medical Sciences. Earlier, all the prominent Pandit organisations asked the Centre to dismiss the Farooq Abdullah government in Jammu and Kashmir and demanded a fresh look to their rehabilitation in view of the January 25/26 massacre of Pandits in Wandhama village in the chief minister`s constituency. ''We unanimously reiterate our loss of faith in the Farooq Abdullah government`s competence to control the situation in Kashmir, where the remaining Pandits are butchered by militants as the administration watches on,`` said Panun Kashmir Convenor Dr Agnishekhar. In Jammu, the winter capital of the state of Jammu & Kashmir, an agitating mob set on fire two trucks and students clashed with the police leaving four persons injured in sporadic violence as a general strike, called to protest against the killing of 23 Kashmiri Pandits, evoked a partial response in Jammu region on 27 January. In a press release, the Indo-American Kashmir Forum (IAKF) in Washington D.C. condemned the carnage and demanded military protection. "The details of the latest carnage are of unprecedented proportions. On the eve of India&;s 48th Republic day, January 25, 1998, a band of armed Islamic terrorists fighting the Jihad in Kashmir entered Wandhama village in Ganderbal district, about 20 miles north of Srinagar, the State capital. In the village, a predominantly Muslim area, the militants sought out the four Pandit (Hindu minority) families living there. Additionally, another Pandit family was visiting the village on this unfortunate day. By the time the Islamic insurgents were through, 23 Pandits lay dead from the five families that included 10 men, 9 women and 4 children. Of these, 17 were gunned down including a one year old boy who received 18 bullets. The remaining 6 victims consisting of 4 women and 2 children were burnt alive. Following the massacre, the militants torched their homes and the nearby Hindu Temple, before escaping into the vastness of night. No group has so far claimed responsibility for this crime against humanity. The Indo-American Kashmir Forum joins our apex organization in North America, the Kashmiri Overseas Association (KOA), in condemning this brutal outrage on the Pandit minority in Kashmir. The significance of this massacre, coming on the eve of a national celebration and in the constituency of Dr.Farooq Abdullah, the Chief Minister, is a further indication of the evil designs by fanatic Islamic warriors armed and supported by Pakistan. But even more importantly, it undermines any claims by the Central government in Delhi or by the State government that normalcy is returning in Kashmir. Indeed, since the return of the elected government in the state, Kashmiri Pandits have been the targets of three massacres, one in Sangrampura (March 1997), the other in Gool Gulabgarh (June 1997), and now the latest massacre in Wandhama (January 1998). Therefore, any efforts by the Abdullah government to urge Pandit refugees to return to the State without first acknowledging and mitigating their security and related concerns lends credence to the charge that the State government has utterly failed to respond to Pandit concerns, needs and demands. And the posture of the Central government in playing a role of a silent spectator in this political tussle between the Abdullah government and the Pandits is both deplorable and shocking. Kashmiri Pandits, loyal Indian citizens, feel betrayed and the latest massacre only proves what was inevitable given the attitude of the Central and State governments towards their security needs, and their political and human rights." Gujral visits Wandhama Prime Minister Inder Kumar Gujral on 28 January joined the mourners in Kashmir's Wandhama village. Amidst tight security, the prime minister, accompanied by Governor General K V Krishna Rao (retired), Chief Minister Dr Farooq Abdullah and Union Minister for Environment Saifuddin Soz, arrived in the afternoon after inaugurating the National Winter Games in Gulmarg. "I have come here to express my grief on behalf of the nation," he said, "The people of Punjab had unitedly defeated the nefarious designs of the enemy. The people of Kashmir will also defeat the designs.''  Gujral assured 14-year-old Vinod Kumar Dhar, the lone survivor of the massacre, that the government would bear the cost of his education and upbringing. Speaking to a group of Kashmiri Pandits who had come down from nearby villages, the premier said adequate security would be provided in all vulnerable areas. Reports from Ganderbal, meanwhile, said that many Kashmiri Pandits in the area were preparing to leave for Jammu. Foreign Mercenaries Responsible Jammu & Kashmir Chief Minister, Dr Farooq Abdullah, flew to the village where the carnage took place. He said that such acts of terror were guided and masterminded by Pakistan and militant groups sponsored by ISI. "Where were those making noises about human rights violations?" Let them come and see now who is committing the human rights violations," he said.  He said that his government would take all set ups to ensure security of the minorities in the State."Kashmir Pandits were part of all of us and no one can change that fact," he added. Police squarely blamed the pro-pakistan Hizbul Mujahideen for the killings. However, the army did not disclose the identity of the group. A spokesman of the army said the group would be neutralised soon. He said: ''It is known that this group consisted of 10 to 17 foreign militants supported by some local ultra. The local militants operating with the group are known to have certain links with certain political leaders of that area and is because of these political links that they have certain amount of confidence in carrying out such acts. The wide condemnation of this cowardly act by Hurriyat Conference, Jamaat-e-Islami and other parties is a positive sign. What is needed now is that these culprits be exposed by the Hurriyat and Jamaat who have all along supported them and even fueled them." Algeria type situation Likely, warns former JKLF Leader Hashim Qureshi Chairman of Jammu & Kashmir Democratic Liberation Party express his deep sadness and anger against killing of 23 Kashmiri Pandits in Ganderbal on January the 26. Hashim Qureshi condemned and said in his press statement: " These kind of inhuman and barbaric actions are not only grass violation of human rights but also action of wild boar against humanity, it proves, that these kind of people who are killing women, men and children are enemies of the Kashmiri people and enemies of the Kashmiri struggle. Actions like, blowing up human bodies and burning down the religious worships should be called "an act of a beast against civilised people". Hashim Qureshi warns the people of Kashmir that these kind of unhuman killings are the beginning of an Algerian kind of massacres against innocent people. He said; " If we Kashmiris will not stand up against these kind of barbaric acts, it can be happen anywhere and with everyone. NHRC to probe Wandhama massacre The National Human Rights Commission on Wednesday decided to conduct an on- the-spot investigation into the Wandhama massacre. After hearing representatives of the Kashmiri people, the Commission's three- member bench, headed by Justice M N Venkatachaliah, asked its director general (investigation) to proceed to the spot immediately. The Commission also issued notices to Union Home Secretary B P Singh and the chief secretary and director general of police of Jammu and Kashmir on the safety of the minorities in the valley. The other Pandits should be given 'adequate protection'. And the state should report back what security measures it had adopted. The Commission would hear the matter again after receiving the government's action-taken report as well as the one from its own investigators. It asked the state to take special care of Vinod Kumar Dhar, the lone survivor of the incident. The boy's closest relatives should be located and he should be entrusted to their care. The expense of his upkeep should be borne by the government.

Edited by Rajput

Cent

They haven't been given that chance, there hasn't been a referendum. For there are only two outcomes, separation from both countries or union with Pakistan. None, benefiting India.

They are better off with separation.

ok the main reason i havn't written in this topic is because of the fact that it involves pages of essay's to disprove Telde's bias. I mean, throughout this entire talk all he has posted are anti-indian articles, some which have no credibility at all ie generalising that if one kashmiri pandit took arms against india, then all of them are.

He then denies them being forced out of their houses or leaving due to fear of murder. He then states there has been no change of demography. and yet there has been a huge migration of kashmiri's into what he would call the indian "mainland". are they moving across the border into pakistan? sadly not. i mean, after all, theres even a net migration from Pakistan to India. As Rajput stated very badly, why is it that out border forces are stoping hundreds, if not thousands, of people crossing into India?

He claims that Pakistan is a saint throughout this, only wanting the wellbeing of kashmir, and yet truckloads of pakistani's are moving into azad kashmir.

Someone above even claimed that all the kashmiri's he has asked would either want to join pakistan or ask for independance. I then decided to carry out my own poll. i know 10 people from Jammu and Kashmir. 6 from Srinagar, 2 from Leh, one from a village near Kargil and 2 from Padam.

Suprisingly i got half and half. Half dont mind being with India. Half want independance. When all were asked about joining Pakistan they laughed. One even took me to see his grandfather. He was in Kashmir at the time of partition. Guess what? I heard stories of PAKISTANI tribesman coming and invading his kingdom.

In that time ive also seen the Indian army welcomed into Srinagar to thundrous applause in 1947, want me to post it up? it's from a bias source, but you cant fake the area's, the numbers or the year in which the clip was made.

Telde, answer this one question though. How can you possibly believe China would ever give their part of Kashmir back? Even if the rest of Kashmir had independance, they would never give it back. Their still in Tibet!