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tadamson View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Mongol heavy cavalry?
    Posted: 07-Feb-2006 at 10:55
Originally posted by Temujin

i think you do not know what skirmish really is...



To be honest I think he does.

skirmish:

Merriam-Webster:
1 : a minor fight in war usually incidental to larger movements

Dictionary.com
  1. A minor battle in war, as one between small forces or between large forces avoiding direct conflict.
  2. A minor or preliminary conflict or dispute: a skirmish over the rules before the debate began.

intr.v. skirmished, skirmishing, skirmishes
To engage in a minor battle or dispute.
etc.....

Normaly military historians use the term for the low level fighting that takes place before a full scale fight.  It normaly takes place as ranged combat with missiles (stones, javelins, arrows etc...) and the intention is often simply to disrupt the enemy.
rgds.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2006 at 11:30

From what I remember (and I wrote something to this extend in one of the threads from yore) is that the Mongols had a very effective and distinct units to field in the event of a battle. The heavy cavalry was one of them. They were either used as a secondary unit that brought a decisive gain in the heat of battle, or they would be sent out initially (ahead of the lightly armored units) at the discretion of the leaders. 

The shock effect of the heavier cavalry was effective by the use of long spears, maces and swords instead of other missle weapons.

Skirmishing was not haphazzard as one might think. But a routinely planned event to disrupt the cohesion of enemy formations. This was done generally from a distance where the bow and arrow recieved primary importance.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2006 at 12:25
Heavy cavalry often did skirmish. For example, among the Byzantine Klibanophoroi, which was their unit of their heaviest cavalry, 1/3 of the members carried bows in addition to normal melee weapons.

In any case, Mongol heavy cavalry was definately not as specialized as European Knights, both tactically and socially.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2006 at 15:02

in order to skirmish, the Mongols need to change horses to not tire them, i can hardly imagine fully armoured Mongols to change horses, especially if they are armoured themselves.

the original statement was: "any troops with missiles can skirmish", however that is clearly wrong. for example Legionaries in armour are no skirmishers, they throw their missile then engage in close combat, thats not the principle of skirmishing. skirmishing is shoot & scoot, that means never let the enemy get hands on you, for this, it is important to be lightly equipped and highly mobile. Legionaries in full armour are not, they are not flexible enough for the skirmish. neither are heavily armoured Mongol cavalrymen.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2006 at 16:26

The mongol battle order

1/4-1/3 heacvy cav 2/3 3/4 light cav

Heavy cav makes a 2 line deep formation ,light cav form 3 lines behind the heavy cav+ seperate units of light cavalry to protect flanks and scout.

When battle start the light cavalry moves through the gaps in the heavy cavalry and Dances and wheels using superior mobility to outshoot the enemy,heavy cavalry stands back shooting long range shower shooting.

units of light cavalry make consecutive charges and retreats shooting volleys of arrows,and then resting after.General skirmishing commences.If enemy heavy cavalry charges mongols the skirmishing units will retreat to the protection of heavy cavalry.

If enemy light cavalry is skirmishing mongols will wait till their horses tire and chargge often with light cavalry .Heavy cavalry supports charges and mongol charges often constist of flanking maneouveres by light cavalry combined with frontal heavy charge

 

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2006 at 23:02
[QUOTE=BigL]

The mongol battle order

1/4-1/3 heacvy cav 2/3 3/4 light cav

Heavy cav makes a 2 line deep formation ,light cav form 3 lines behind the heavy cav+ seperate units of light cavalry to protect flanks and scout.

When battle start the light cavalry moves through the gaps in the heavy cavalry and Dances and wheels using superior mobility to outshoot the enemy,heavy cavalry stands back shooting long range shower shooting.

 

The following link has info regarding this the above mentioned formation.

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=7753&am p;st=0

Chris

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2006 at 08:38
Originally posted by shurite7

[QUOTE=BigL]

The mongol battle order

1/4-1/3 heacvy cav 2/3 3/4 light cav

Heavy cav makes a 2 line deep formation ,light cav form 3 lines behind the heavy cav+ seperate units of light cavalry to protect flanks and scout.

When battle start the light cavalry moves through the gaps in the heavy cavalry and Dances and wheels using superior mobility to outshoot the enemy,heavy cavalry stands back shooting long range shower shooting.

 

The following link has info regarding this the above mentioned formation.

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=7753&am p;am p;st=0

Chris



Hi Chris,...

If you remember correctly the quote from Meng Hung states that the Mongols fight in shallow formations like the Jin, then goes on to copy the description of the "horse team" from the histories.  It isw possible that he meant that the Mongols also employed the five rank horse team, but even then you have a mixed unit not separate units of 'heavy' and 'light' cavalry.

There are also several instances of the Mamluks describing how IlKhanid troops fought in a single rank.

Most historians will agree that Mongol armies included men with different levels of protection, but there is no evidence of 'light' or 'heavy' units other than 'guard' or 'hero' units being better equipped in general than ordinary troops.
rgds.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2006 at 08:55
Originally posted by Temujin

in order to skirmish, the Mongols need to change horses to not tire them, i can hardly imagine fully armoured Mongols to change horses, especially if they are armoured themselves.

the original statement was: "any troops with missiles can skirmish", however that is clearly wrong. for example Legionaries in armour are no skirmishers, they throw their missile then engage in close combat, thats not the principle of skirmishing. skirmishing is shoot & scoot, that means never let the enemy get hands on you, for this, it is important to be lightly equipped and highly mobile. Legionaries in full armour are not, they are not flexible enough for the skirmish. neither are heavily armoured Mongol cavalrymen.



Changing horses in mid battle is a recognised and documented event in Mongol and other armies.

Vegitus describes how Legions should include light troops who can issue out and persued beated enem, or enemy troops that run away following the initial skirmishing.  -  The skirmishing is performed by the normal legionaries. Much earlier Ceasar describes how legionaries go into woods to skirmish with gauls.

'shoot and scoot'  is a rather more modern approach to skirmishing.  Though the psiloi of ancient Greece did adopt the same approach, in most periods it was a prelude to close combat.  The main role of psiloi seems to have been to screen the deployment of the hoplites.  This compares to the Roman armies graduly reducing the amount of 'light' (ie not close combat capeable) infantry as the heavies switched from spear to javelin.
I agree that your description of 'shoot andscoot' would apply to units of 'light' cavalry who relied entirely on missiles and didn't close to melee.  Mogol armies didn't contain any such units.

Liao heavy cavalry (fully armoured, on metal armoured horses) had a specific drill for skirmishing.  Some of the early Jurchen victories were attributed to their charging immediately, without the normal skirmishing phase, which unbalanced the Liao cavalry.

During the Ghurid attacks on North India the records describe how the  cavalry (armoured horse archers with laances, maces etc for melee)  would skirmish with enemy elephant forces (each animal had 12 infantry as well) to pull them out of formation before making a decisive charge.
rgds.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2006 at 15:19

just because there was no level of standardization in the Mongol army doesn't mean there were no heavy or light units. it clearly states that at the battle of Kalka River the Mongol heavy cavalry did engnage in a charge before the ligth cavalry starded the skirmish. maybe you misunderstood me but i wrote before: in order to support your theory you must come up with proove that Mongol heavy cavalry (fully armoured horsemen) changed horses during battle and how this would look like. second, skirmishers are shoot & scoot light troops, somethign that was excersiced EVERYwhere in the world at times, not just by greek psiloi. in cases were missile troops were not light but armoured, those were SUPPORT troops, not skirmishers, thats why i said some of you have no understanding of what skirmishing really is about. Heavy Mongol cavalry used their missiles in support of their charging comrades, not for skirmishing! (yes, Roman legionaries had detachement of skirmishing legionaries, those however discarded their armour and heavy javelin in favour of more and lighter javelins.) and just because there was no regulation of litgh or heavy cavalry in Napoleonic term doesn't mean there was no distinction being made. the whole point is, no, not every troop with missiles can skirmish...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2006 at 18:13

How does my mongol battle order sound guys accurate?

When we say Heavy cavalry i mean armoured horse,light cavalry had alot more differentiation in the human armour but never wore horse armour.

Now how heavy cavalry change to a fresh new horse ,does it get onto an already armoured horse or do they change armour .

How does mameluke battle order differ from the mongols do they have similiar skirmishing tactics?

Ottoman turks had light and heavy cavalry ?if so do they learn from mongols? 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2006 at 20:02
I think what Tadamson is saying is that heavy cavalrymen were mixed with light cavalrymen within a single unit and that there were no standard units solely for light or heavy troops.


Edited by Imperator Invictus
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2006 at 07:27
Originally posted by Temujin

just because there was no level of standardization in the Mongol army doesn't mean there were no heavy or light units. it clearly states that at the battle of Kalka River the Mongol heavy cavalry did engnage in a charge before the ligth cavalry starded the skirmish. maybe you misunderstood me but i wrote before: in order to support your theory you must come up with proove that Mongol heavy cavalry (fully armoured horsemen) changed horses during battle and how this would look like. second, skirmishers are shoot & scoot light troops, somethign that was excersiced EVERYwhere in the world at times, not just by greek psiloi. in cases were missile troops were not light but armoured, those were SUPPORT troops, not skirmishers, thats why i said some of you have no understanding of what skirmishing really is about. Heavy Mongol cavalry used their missiles in support of their charging comrades, not for skirmishing! (yes, Roman legionaries had detachement of skirmishing legionaries, those however discarded their armour and heavy javelin in favour of more and lighter javelins.) and just because there was no regulation of litgh or heavy cavalry in Napoleonic term doesn't mean there was no distinction being made. the whole point is, no, not every troop with missiles can skirmish...



I would be interested to see the source for the Kalka River battle that goes to this level of detail (I suspect that it is a much later assumption in a secondary source).  The Romans who discarded armour did so for specific pursuit duties not for general skirmishing (again this is clear from the source).

There is no original source that differestiates between units of light and heavy cavalry in a Mongol army.  I can't 'proove' this but if anyone can come up with such a source it will disproove what I am saying.

And again, 'shoot and scoot' is a very specialised, and very rare, form of skirmishing.  Original sources for it are extreemly rare. (nb Modern use of it appears to stem from the activities of irregular forces in America).
rgds.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2006 at 08:23

Though not an ancient source, D. Nicolle writes, 'Kalka River 1223-Genghiz Khan's Mongols invade Russia' Osprey Publishing, the following:

   The normal battle array of the Mongol's included five rows of dzaguns (hundreds). The first two consisted of heavy cavalry, sword-armed men wearing armour. Light cavalry formed the rear three rows. Furthermore the army which Subodei and Jebei led into the western steppes was much better armed than most Mongol forces. This was a result of its previous successful operations...

   In battle the rows of Mongol cavalry were divided into a checkerboard pattern of distinct units. There were large gaps between the units of heavy cavalry in the front rows, allowing the horse-archers to advance from deep inside the Mongol battle array. If this initial assault failed and the enemy counter-attacked, the lightly armoured Mongol horse-archers could retreat while the Mongol heavy cavalry renewed the attack, protected by their armour. If this also failed, then the entire process could be repeated again and again until the enemy was worn down and defeated.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2006 at 12:45
There is no original source that differestiates between units of light and heavy cavalry in a Mongol army.


I think if you put it like that you're probably right. You would have to find unit names on the level of "Hussars" and "Cuirassiers" in the Mongol army, rather than generic descriptions of light and heavy cavalry.

But another problem is the scarcity of sources to find unit names.

For this reason, it seems like many barbarian armies did not have specialized units.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2006 at 14:06
Aside from the decimal system, the Mongols employed three arms of forces. The center was called the Khol (Kol) and was comprised of the Imperial Guard (Keshik) mostly. The Left Wing (East) was the Junghar and the Right Wing (West) the Baraunghar. With the decimal system command was given to leaders of tens, hundreds, thousands and ten thousands. Final authority resting with the Khan. Individual units had specific duties. Men could not transfer from their units either. Whether units carried duties similar to light and heavy cavalry tasks is not clearly determined in my research so far. However, it is most likely that each soldier had precise equipment and duties to follow once given their command.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2006 at 14:45
Originally posted by Seko

Though not an ancient source, D. Nicolle writes, 'Kalka River 1223-Genghiz Khan's Mongols invade Russia' Osprey Publishing, the following:

   The normal battle array of the Mongol's included five rows of dzaguns (hundreds). The first two consisted of heavy cavalry, sword-armed men wearing armour. Light cavalry formed the rear three rows. Furthermore the army which Subodei and Jebei led into the western steppes was much better armed than most Mongol forces. This was a result of its previous successful operations...

   In battle the rows of Mongol cavalry were divided into a checkerboard pattern of distinct units. There were large gaps between the units of heavy cavalry in the front rows, allowing the horse-archers to advance from deep inside the Mongol battle array. If this initial assault failed and the enemy counter-attacked, the lightly armoured Mongol horse-archers could retreat while the Mongol heavy cavalry renewed the attack, protected by their armour. If this also failed, then the entire process could be repeated again and again until the enemy was worn down and defeated.



Much as I respect Dr Nicolle he is a specialist in the early arab period.  All his writings on steppe peoples are taken from other secondary sources and 'leave much to be desired'.  His knowlege of artifacts etc East of Persia is also limited (eg his medieval sourcebooks mave many errors and incorect attributions for the East Asian and Steppe drawings).  The above section is speculation lifted from Howarth.
rgds.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2006 at 14:48
Originally posted by Imperator Invictus

There is no original source that differestiates between units of light and heavy cavalry in a Mongol army.


I think if you put it like that you're probably right. You would have to find unit names on the level of "Hussars" and "Cuirassiers" in the Mongol army, rather than generic descriptions of light and heavy cavalry.

But another problem is the scarcity of sources to find unit names.

For this reason, it seems like many barbarian armies did not have specialized units.


Mongol units were named after the hereditary leader of the 1000 households, they didn't have differentiators (we know the names of several hundred such units).

nb.  units were multiples of thousands of households, not thousands of men.  eg typical field strength of later turmen was around 6000 men. (something else the popular histories tend to miss out).
rgds.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2006 at 14:56

I think you wrote something to that extent in a previous post of yours last year and I didn't pay attention to the various families as being counted in the units. If this were the case then the soldiers numerical strength should remain smaller then the assumed level presented by the decimal code. Some confusion on my part. Wouldn't this effect the chain of command if units were then not strictly decimal or balanced?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2006 at 15:10

just because there is no primary source describing the exact composition and tactic of Mongol forces in the style of a 18th century military manual doesn't mean such distinction did not exist. common sense and militarical necessity dictates the existence of such an organization.

a napoleonic line infantry regiment in 1805 was composed liek that: 1 regiment = 3 battailons, 1 battailon = 1 company grenadiers (heavy inf) 4 companies fusiliers and 1 company Voltigeurs (light infantry). then, a light infantry battaillion looked like this: 1 company of carabiniers (heavy infantry in theory) 4 of chasseurs (the original light infantry) and 1 of voltigeurs (light infantry again). from this you can see that French napoleonic infantry distinctions completely blurred after the introduction of Voltigeur companies. the idea was to have 2 elite companies (heavy & light) and 4 regular companies in a battaillion. the line regiments would have their own light infantry but the light regiments were all light, depsite of classification. also, for battles like Austerlitz, provisional regiments were created, those were all-grenadier regiments as a reserve, those were created from assigning all grenadier companies from line regiments. they only existed for 1 battle and then were disbanded and the grenadiers returned to their original untis. this was not recorded in any primary sources other than the orders for the battle of austerlitz by napoleon. what i want to say with that is that roles on the battlefield were not always clear defined and that unit organization was in many cases upon the descision of the individual commander. Roman manipular army is also an example of this.

about Kalka river, it says that the cavalry did first charge, then start the skirmish. it doesn't make sense letting horse archers charge while cataphracts do the skirmish. this is what i mean with common sense. just because sources don't mention details like that doesn't mean that the Mongol army was a homogenous mass of horsemen with no understanding of utilizing its own forces. given the sucess of Mongol forces this is especially unlikely...

Mamluke horse archers did not skrimish, they were used tactically like their foot counterparts, they approached the front as a cohesive unit and shot in volleys from horseback. they did not "dance".

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2006 at 16:47

yes i agree with Temujin

another reason why heavy cavalry does not skirmish is because of its slow speed it wil not be able to fake retreat in the face of enemy cavalry,

the power of light cavalry was its ability to engage at will and disengage at will and nothing but light cavalry can catch it,but heavy cavalry retreating can be caught up by light cavalry or by a well rested enemy heavy cavalry horse.

therefore Heavy cavalry supports light cavalry in skirmishing

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