Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Alija Izetbegovic

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
medenaywe View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator
Avatar
Master of Meanings

Joined: 06-Nov-2010
Location: /
Online Status: Online
Posts: 14613
  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Alija Izetbegovic
    Posted: 16-Aug-2017 at 14:24
Sorry I did not understand you are looking for the name of place on photo.Check where his resident place was by plates on car.
Back to Top
red clay View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
Tomato Master Emeritus

Joined: 14-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 10108
  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2017 at 10:47
The Lic. plate may be from here in NJ. That's an older model Ford. The house is a typical condo type.
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
Back to Top
amar94 View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 12-Aug-2017
Location: Austria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2
  Quote amar94 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2017 at 07:12
are you sure? because the car number plate is an american, and the house behind him has an average american style, such house designs doesnt exist in bosnia and hercegovina. i think that this pic was taken in america but the question: where exactly? when? has he lived in america?.....
Back to Top
medenaywe View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator
Avatar
Master of Meanings

Joined: 06-Nov-2010
Location: /
Online Status: Online
Posts: 14613
  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2017 at 04:26
Bosanski Shamac,birth place.
Back to Top
medenaywe View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator
Avatar
Master of Meanings

Joined: 06-Nov-2010
Location: /
Online Status: Online
Posts: 14613
  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2017 at 04:18
It is tipical "road of stateman" on Balkan.It always has started with prizonBig smileActours of movie "Fail of Yugoslavia" are all dead now!Conspiracy!?!

Edited by medenaywe - 23-Aug-2017 at 02:47
Back to Top
amar94 View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 12-Aug-2017
Location: Austria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2
  Quote amar94 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2017 at 14:31
do anybody know some closer information about this pic from alija izetbegovic? (which city?, when?,....) thanks in advance



 
Back to Top
Cunctator View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 12-Feb-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 105
  Quote Cunctator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2006 at 00:38

Jay,

I agree about the need for balance in the study of what happened in BiH. I cannot recall who said it, but there is a saying that "truth is the first casualty in war." In the Balkan wars on the 1990s, that is absolutely the case. It would seem that all sides lied and misled a great deal. To me, the worst example is the coverage of events leading up to the Kosovo war and what has happened since then.

I also agree that lots of people disliked/hated/despised Milosevic and Izetbegovic. But many, perhaps the overwhelming majority in each community, did not. If I were "dictator of the world", I would never have created the Hague Tribunal and would never have tried anyone for war crimes. I would leave judgements to the governments of the former combatants (who could, if they wanted, have their own trials) and history professors.

Back to Top
Jay. View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 24-Nov-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1207
  Quote Jay. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2006 at 16:18
Originally posted by Cunctator

No Jay, it isn't anywhere near as simple as that. Black and white distinctions just don't apply there. The nature of the conflict in the former Yugoslavia, and the tensions and feelings the fighting reflected and gave rise to, complicates such assertions. Each of the three main leaders -- Tudjman, Milosevic and Izetbegovic -- all appealed to nationalists. (Milosevic was probably the least so committed to nationalist ideals, and far more an opportunist who manipulated such feelings.) Therefore, each was seen at the time, and for many long after, as a hero in his own land. Again, Milosevic, having lost all his wars is the least regarded as a hero.

I am sure Mila will disagree with what I have written, but so be it. Still, I will read whatever she writes (and will think about it) because it is always very interesting.



I don't really agree. You said that each leader was seen at the time, and for many long years, a hero in his own land. Milosevic was still hated by many Serbs. Alija was still no liked but some Muslims. But, the thing that PISSES me off the most is when the media just concetrates on Milosevic and inflates numbers of deaths in the war. No one even knows Alija or Tujdman or what they did during that war.
Back to Top
Jay. View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 24-Nov-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1207
  Quote Jay. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2006 at 16:14
Originally posted by DayI

Alija Izzetbegovic, great man may he R I P.


Great man? He killed many people just like Milosevic and Tujman.
Back to Top
Cunctator View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 12-Feb-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 105
  Quote Cunctator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 17:12

No Jay, it isn't anywhere near as simple as that. Black and white distinctions just don't apply there. The nature of the conflict in the former Yugoslavia, and the tensions and feelings the fighting reflected and gave rise to, complicates such assertions. Each of the three main leaders -- Tudjman, Milosevic and Izetbegovic -- all appealed to nationalists. (Milosevic was probably the least so committed to nationalist ideals, and far more an opportunist who manipulated such feelings.) Therefore, each was seen at the time, and for many long after, as a hero in his own land. Again, Milosevic, having lost all his wars is the least regarded as a hero.

I am sure Mila will disagree with what I have written, but so be it. Still, I will read whatever she writes (and will think about it) because it is always very interesting.

Back to Top
Jay. View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 24-Nov-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1207
  Quote Jay. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 12:10
Alija is nothing but a war criminal just like Milosevic and Tudjman.

Edited by Jay.
Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava
Only Unity Can Save the Serb
Back to Top
Mila View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4030
  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2006 at 23:41
A little message from Sarajevo's Serbs who stayed behind in regard to your claims that Serbs were ethnically cleansed from Sarajevo, Cunc.

The president of the Serb citizens council/Citizen's movement for equality, Mirko Pejanović, stated that "Nobody, not even Bukejlović, can change or cover up the truth for the sake of current political needs. In Sarajevo, during the four year siege carried out by Karadić's military forces and the SDS, there were deaths of Sarayliyas of all ethnicities. The people were both suffering and dying from hunger, cold, they were being killed by mortar shells... among the 12,000 killed Sarayliyas recorded in the war, at least one fourth were members of the Serb nation or had Serb ethnic ancestry. Thus, we can not talk of an extermination or genocide of Serbs, but of a responsibility of the SDS and Karadić's military forces for the overall extermination of Sarajevo and Sarayliyas, and within that of the Serb people".

There's a careful refutation of the rest of the claims there as well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Sarajevo

EDIT: Anyhow, I'm so sick of this conversation and it was so nice not to have it for so many weeks. I've made my point - the same points I've been making for a decade - and now I'm, once again, bowing out.


Edited by Mila
[IMG]http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/9259/1xw2.jpg">
Back to Top
Mila View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4030
  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2006 at 23:33
I responded so many times and each time I deleted it.

Originally posted by Cunctator

All I am saying is that all sides committed war crimes and all sides had innocent victims.


I would never claim otherwise. Thinking that disproves or even validates the dynamics of the war as I explained them is desperate.

Originally posted by Cunctator

Does it really matter if one side killed 10,000 and the other only 2,000?


Of course it matters. It matters even more than more than 100,000 were killed in an organized, purposeful campaign using everything from arbitrary executions to concentration camps.

Originally posted by Cunctator

I cannot agree with one of your statements. The situation of the Bosniaks did not at all resemble the situation of the Jews under Nazi rule (to use your example), although I am certain (and your last posting demonstrates this) that many people felt and still feel that way.

You're right, it doesn't compare at all. In fact, Greta Ferusic - who survived Auschwitz - said life in Sarajevo during the siege was even worse.

Originally posted by Cunctator

It is one thing to force a people to leave their homes in the course of which some people are murdered, and another to create an elaborate system to exterminate a whole race. The latter never happened to the Bosniaks.

Actually, that's called genocide - and it did happen to the Bosniaks.

Originally posted by Cunctator

The Bosniaks did much the same with the Serb minority in Sarajevo.

Blasphemy. Sarajevo still has all of its Orthodox Churches, Banja Luka dynamited all of its more than 40 Mosques, all of its more than 15 Roman Catholic churches, as well as it's two Synagogues - one of which wasn't even a Synagogue anymore.

Banja Luka's Bosniaks and Bosnian Croats were herded onto cattle cars and many were sent to their deaths at 23 concentration camps in and around the city of Prijedor. Sarajevo's Serbs remained in the city until the United Nations refused to allow them to continue construction of a Berlin-style wall and opted to award the whole of the city to the Bosnian government. Sarajevo's Serbs packed up their belongings, dug up their graves, and moved the living and the dead a few kilometers east. Serbian forces set fire to everything as they fled - especially the homes and belongings of the 40,000 Serbs who refused to leave. All of this has been well documented and could only be disputed in bad faith.

Originally posted by Cunctator

After Belgrade was defeated, the Albanians have been doing this since 1999 in Kosovo.

The Republika Srpska was an important lesson for the Kosovar Albanians - kill who you can, drive away who you can't, and the United Nations will allow you to establish you're own entity on the territory. The UCK's own documents prove as much.

And as for strategos, well...

I hate stooping so low... but perhaps it's time Vojvodina joins Hungary and Kosovo joins Albania. Then we'll have a little war to ethnically cleanse Bosniak-dominated regions of southern Serbia. Then, we'll of course, have to attack Serbian-dominated territory to create an ethnically homogenous land bridge linking the Republika Bosnjacka to Bosnia and Herzegovina proper. Then they have the Republika Srpska and we can have our Republika Bosnjacka.

I'd rather not, but if people like you get to make the decisions perhaps we will see it.

[IMG]http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/9259/1xw2.jpg">
Back to Top
strategos View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 09-Mar-2005
Location: Denmark
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1096
  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2006 at 22:01
Perhaps it is time Republika Srpska joins Republic of Serbia
http://theforgotten.org/intro.html
Back to Top
Cunctator View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 12-Feb-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 105
  Quote Cunctator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2006 at 21:28

Mila,

I am not disputing that atrocities were committed. That would be very foolish. All I am saying is that all sides committed war crimes and all sides had innocent victims. Does it really matter if one side killed 10,000 and the other only 2,000? (I am choosing those numbers arbitrarily.) To suggest that one side was all good and the other all bad only serves to obscure the reality on the ground. I am certain that the Serbs did kill many more than the Bosniak forces, but that is to be expected -- they were better equipped and armed and were on the offensive for much of the war. But, many of the Serbs were just as fearful of living under Bosniak rule as vice versa, and that fear grew as the war continued -- I know that you will not like reading that, but it is true and is often obscured by the nationalist rhetoric of the leaders and by media reports that tended to paint the war in black and white colours. 

I cannot agree with one of your statements. The situation of the Bosniaks did not at all resemble the situation of the Jews under Nazi rule (to use your example), although I am certain (and your last posting demonstrates this) that many people felt and still feel that way. It is one thing to force a people to leave their homes in the course of which some people are murdered, and another to create an elaborate system to exterminate a whole race. The latter never happened to the Bosniaks.

I would also point out that many Balkan wars have tended, historically, to involve what we call today "ethnic cleansing". The Republika Srpska wanted to push the Bosniaks out of as much territory as possible and eradicate their presence. The Bosniaks did much the same with the Serb minority in Sarajevo. After Belgrade was defeated, the Albanians have been doing this since 1999 in Kosovo. And we should not forget earlier examples -- where are all the Turks that used to live in the region? They didn't all move back to Turkey. In this sense, what happened in Bosnia is just another chapter in that region's bloody history. That is not to minimise recent events, or to be morally equivocal, but it is an attempt to put them in some perspective.

As to your disputing my term "Bosnian civil war", I do not care about the label. We can call the war by whatever name is agreed upon. All three combatants in Bosnia (Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks) had outside help, in different amounts but it was still from outside. I do not have any figures to cite, but I think it is generally accepted that most of the fighters in the Republika Srpska and Bosnian-Croat Federation were from within Bosnia itself.

 

 

 

 

Back to Top
Bosniathebestcountry View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 27-Feb-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote Bosniathebestcountry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 20:51
Bosnia was destroyed the most in this war. and thats the bottom line. Slovenia had like what....4 days of war? croatia 6 months? bosnia.....4 years! the west knew what was happening, the serbs would massacre a village, they would put on bosnian army sings and stuff like that to make it look like "the muslims did it". You dont need to tell me anything. Bosnia was betrayed and annihilated in this war. And who knows if it will ever recover. 
Back to Top
Mila View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4030
  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 19:05
I don't believe in making the aggressors equal to their victims at all, Cunctator. We don't say WWII was a civil war between Germans and Jews because of the Warsaw uprising... it just seems strange to me.

You have a side in this war with an official policy of ethnic cleansing - so official that this is where the term "ethnic cleansing" comes from. The West didn't invent it, the Belgrade authorities did. You have village after village, town after town, city after city being attacked for days and sometimes weeks, sometimes months, sometimes years. Those that fell were 'ethnically cleansed' and dedicated in celebratory, televized ceremonies as gifts to the Serbian people.

If you want to compare Naser Oric to that, go ahead. Maybe if he had been commiting his crimes in Novi Sad while Belgrade was under siege and half of western Serbia was occupied by Bosniaks it would make sense.

I will never accept that Naser Oric's crimes were acceptable or even necessary, but I will never say all sides were equal.

EDIT 1: And "Bosnian civil war" makes me sick. The first people killed in Bosnia were Herzegovinian Croats massacred in 1991 by the Yugoslav People's Army during the war in Croatia. The first Serbian soliders to enter Bosnia following our referendum of independence crossed over the Sava from Croata. That's there independent countries involved before, and literally on day 1.

EDIT 2: To me this "all sides were equal" approach is just like people saying, "I don't care what homosexuals do, I just don't want to see it."

It's the form of denial and prejudice that is still politically correct and, in some circles, acceptable.

EDIT 3: It started as, "Nothing happened."

Then it went to, "They did it to themselves."

Then it went to, "Okay, we did it, but they did more."

Then it went to, "Okay, we did it, but they did it too."

Someday, hopefully soon, it will be "Okay, we did it - and they did that."

Edited by Mila
[IMG]http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/9259/1xw2.jpg">
Back to Top
Cunctator View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 12-Feb-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 105
  Quote Cunctator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 18:43

Mila,

I respect your opinion but I just do not share it, and I understand but cannot endorse your feelings. (Not having a drop of Slavic blood in my veins, I have "no dog in this fight." to quote George Bush Sr.) Nevertheless, let's be frank, Izetbegovic was no saint, and there were atrocities committed by all sides in the Bosnian war, and they are documented. (Orric is on trial at the Hague for committing many such crimes, and we know that the ICTY were sitting on an investigation of the Bosnian president and only announced its existence when he died.) As to Izetbegovic's tolerance for other cultures/religions, I am no authority. However, I do recall very clearly that he publicly complained about the behaviour of Bosnians during the Christmas 1995 and New Year 1996 celebrations as not being consistent with Islamic faith. Such an opinion is again consistent with his beahviour and ideas during the Second World War and immediately after.

Civil wars are reputed to be the most bloody. In the Bosnian Civil War all sides had their heroes and villians, and all had victims of war crimes. The Bosnians were the most skillful at orchestrating global public opinion and the image of the beleagured old man in beseiged (though the tunnels at the airport made it a rather porous seige) aided that effort. The Serbs were, by far, the least skilful, made no effort at public relations in the West and are now blamed for everything that happened. And Serb leaders were possibly the least photogenic. It will probably take another generation before the historians can do a really good in-depth study of the events a decade and more ago.

Back to Top
Mila View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4030
  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 16:25
It wasn't as though the massacre of Srebrenica was the first time these people saw a Serb either, though, YuGo. The city was held under constant shelling and sniper fire for years as well.
[IMG]http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/9259/1xw2.jpg">
Back to Top
YuGo View Drop Down
Earl
Earl


Joined: 20-Dec-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 294
  Quote YuGo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 16:16

 

Originally posted by Bosniathebestcountry

I never heard of any bosnians ever (except the controversial hanjar division from WWII) destroying serbs or serbian property or hating on orthodox religion. Its all propagandanized B.S.

The serbs are and always will be the ones blamed for the '92 war. there is no excuse for it. and whats worse...that war accomplished absoloutley nothing, in fact it messed things up much worse.

Alija Izetbegovic....many bosnians like him but many dont cuz they thought he was "too soft" and a coward and he never shouldve signed the Dayton contract because the bosnian army at the end stretch had a very big chance at winning the war because they started forcing the serbs out slowly.

In my opinion, he seemed like a good person who only wanted peace. A good president?....i dont know.

You know, btw... i'm also from Bosanski Samac. I left it when i was 4 because of the war of course. I got a chance to visit it one time right before i came to the states and i bathed in the magnificent river Sava. It used to be a beautiful, peaceful little city and now..... an empty depressing place, with like 8 bosnian-serbs and 2 bosnian-muslims living in it and its belonging to "srpska republica". Every ex-samcanin (no matter what ethnic background) that sees samac now cries when they visit it.

I respect your opinion, although I can't say I feel the same way.

For you to say that you have never heard of Bosniaks massacring Serbs and Croats... is very surprising. Have you ever been to central Bosnia, or heard of what had happened in places like Zenica, or Maglaj? Even in Srebrenica, for years before the horrible massacre of thousands of Muslim men in the town, Serbs were the victims (kind of the same story in Knin, except the Croats were the victims for years, then ending up massacring the Serbs, in the last days of war).

You have to understand that it isn't even important who started the war, or who had the most dead etc. The most important thing is that we as a country, Bosnia and Herzegovina try to rebuild this country into what it once was. Nothing would make me happier than seeing a Muslim woman take her child to the Ferhadija Mosque in Banja Luka, and at the same time a Serb Man with his children in the Orthodox Church in Mostar.

I can also relate to you when you talk about going back to your hometown, and it not being what it was before the war. I think all places in Bosnia are like that, both in the RS and Federation. Even if they rebuild all the Mosques, Orthodox and Catholic Churches.. we have to wonder will towns like Mostar, Banja Luka, or Drvar ever be the same again?

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.125 seconds.