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Best leader of a Muslim country at present?

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Poll Question: Who do you think is the best leader of a Muslim country at present?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
1 [1.82%]
16 [29.09%]
7 [12.73%]
0 [0.00%]
3 [5.45%]
1 [1.82%]
22 [40.00%]
1 [1.82%]
0 [0.00%]
4 [7.27%]
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  Quote Fizzil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Best leader of a Muslim country at present?
    Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 03:08

And pakistan was better off allying with the US.

They have a bigger fish to fry with india, so allying with the US was the only option.

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  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 06:20
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Musharaf has kept US troops off pakistani soil.


I don't know about that, Omar.  We just heard about the US airstrike that killed at least 18 innocent civilians in Pakistan.
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  Quote oTToMAn_TurK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 07:08
Originally posted by DayI

Was he a member of a group like Hizb-ullah, IRA, Al-Qaeda, EOKA?

Is the fact that he does not drink, gamble, womanise and keeps to his principles extreme? In my point of view that is an extremly rare form of a good person.

Omg, if he whas a member of these groops, he even cant be doorwaiter of a whorehouse...

He whas a "Milli grs" sempasitant, that company wants to destroy Turkey's "laik" system and replace it with "sheriyah" of their own.

just like you said "he WAS a Milli Gorus", today the Milli Goruscu's see him as nothing more then a traitor to them, he is no longer respected by Milli Gorus, i no this coz i no some people from MG here... and i no what they think of him today...

Either your a slave to what MADE-MAN
Or your a slave to what MAN-MADE
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  Quote TeldeIndus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 07:10

Originally posted by Mira

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Musharaf has kept US troops off pakistani soil.


I don't know about that, Omar.  We just heard about the US airstrike that killed at least 18 innocent civilians in Pakistan.

Drones.

There's no US troops in Pakistan.

We are not without accomplishment. We have managed to distribute poverty - Nguyen Co Thatch, Vietnamese foreign minister
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  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 07:30
Originally posted by oTToMAn_TurK

Originally posted by DayI

Was he a member of a group like Hizb-ullah, IRA, Al-Qaeda, EOKA?

Is the fact that he does not drink, gamble, womanise and keeps to his principles extreme? In my point of view that is an extremly rare form of a good person.

Omg, if he whas a member of these groops, he even cant be doorwaiter of a whorehouse...

He whas a "Milli grs" sempasitant, that company wants to destroy Turkey's "laik" system and replace it with "sheriyah" of their own.

just like you said "he WAS a Milli Gorus", today the Milli Goruscu's see him as nothing more then a traitor to them, he is no longer respected by Milli Gorus, i no this coz i no some people from MG here... and i no what they think of him today...

Thats another proof to NOT trust him...
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  Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 07:35

The US are in the Pakistan/Afghan border. However if i was in Pakistan i would be more afraid of the Musharaf army then of the US forces.

Teleindus, perhaps i should hae been more clear about what i meant by ally. Pakistan and Afghanistan were allies during the Taliban governments rule, since the west of Pakistan's population is ethnically the same as those from Afghanistan just goes to show how easily Musharaf will sell his freindship with the Taliban and his people to the will of the US.

Although i must agree to Omar's point to a certain extent that Musharaf is better than a lot of other Pakistani leaders.

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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 07:48

Thats another proof to NOT trust him...

Ataturk was a  ittihatist, and man of enver. do you trust him? do you think he also followed red apple?


 

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  Quote TeldeIndus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 08:06
Originally posted by OSMANLI

Teleindus, perhaps i should hae been more clear about what i meant by ally. Pakistan and Afghanistan were allies during the Taliban governments rule, since the west of Pakistan's population is ethnically the same as those from Afghanistan just goes to show how easily Musharaf will sell his freindship with the Taliban and his people to the will of the US.

Ok. But a lot of Pakistanis understand the position Musharaf was in, as Omar explained. I'm from the West of Pakistan too, but can see why he did what he did. The Taliban were finished (as a form of governance, though they'll probably be back in power once the Americans leave Afghanistan), and they should have called it quits from the moment the towers fell. Sure they were demonized, for example, with regards women, the literacy level under the Taliban was the highest ever (21%), now it's down to 14%!, education for women wasnt possible due to limited resources, and they kept the peace most important of all. Beards and Burkhas was probably something they came up with under the influence of too much testosterone, but they're no different to the Northern Alliance. However, the fact remains, they should have realized their time was up as Musharaf did to his credit. I'm just surprised they held out for over a month with their bows and arrows.

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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 10:35

Taliban were a stabilizing force in Afghanistan but this number of 21% literacy is bogus.  Most of the Taliban were illiterate people.  Musharraf used Afghanistan as a base to also train militants to fight in Kashmir.

Pakistan plays the 'brother' card (Muslim brotherhood) with Afghanistan whenever it can, and will play the 'terrorist' card whenever its own interests are not met.  It does the same to the Pashtun population of NWFP.  Whenever they serve Pakistan they are calleld "brave heroes" and whenever they revolt against Pakistan rule their called "uncivilized barbarians, terrorists."

Its a hypocritical nation built on unsolid foundations.   Today Pakistan bombs its own people in Baluchistan while can't do nothing as their 'ally' America bombs Waziristan from neighboring occupied Afghanistan.

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  Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 10:57

Alright brothers lets not get sidetracked from the topic. Although Afghanan i must admit the Pakistani leaders do have a habit of doing this. It was only a couple of years back when Musharaf himself was supporting the Kasmir cause. Then he calls them terrorists. Majlis's are under suspect due to the Musharaf regime finding any excuse to lock lock up civilians and then show them off to the US as medals that they are cracking down on terror.

The Musharaf regime has done nothing either to stop the corrupt army, police, judges or politicians.

Whether the Taliban was good or bad is irrelevent because Musharaf was a freind with them. The point is that he quickly changed his stance with them as soon as the US called for it, just as he is doing with his own popuation.

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  Quote TeldeIndus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 11:26

Taliban were a stabilizing force in Afghanistan but this number of 21% literacy is bogus.

Ok genius. But I'm still not sure why you so readily discount the figure of 21% when it's quoted by UNICEF

Education

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Adult literacy rate,male (1990)

40

Adult literacy rate,female (1990)

12

Adult literacy rate,male (2000)

51

Adult literacy rate,female (2000)

21

http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/afghanistan_statistics.h tml 

The Taliban were in power in between 1996 - 2001 I believe.

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  Quote TeldeIndus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 11:33
Originally posted by OSMANLI

Alright brothers lets not get sidetracked from the topic. Although Afghanan i must admit the Pakistani leaders do have a habit of doing this. It was only a couple of years back when Musharaf himself was supporting the Kasmir cause. Then he calls them terrorists.

Musharaf has always given the Kashmiri cause moral support . And rightfully so. There is no change there.

Musharraf fires up on Kashmir again, India indifferent
Sudhir Chadda
Feb. 6, 2005

 

 

Musharraf again fired up in Kashmir asking India to implement plebiscite

Musharraf's reference to the solution of the Kashmir issue in line with UN resolutions marked a departure from recent statements by Pakistani leaders, who had refrained from harping on the world body's call for holding a plebiscite in Jammu and Kashmir. He said the people of Pakistan observed the day by reaffirming their support for the "legitimate struggle of the Kashmiri people for the exercise of their inalienable right of self determination".

http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/1534.asp 



Edited by TeldeIndus
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 14:56
USA is Dr. Frankenstein and Taliban is his monster, turned against its master.
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 15:32
Originally posted by TeldeIndus

Taliban were a stabilizing force in Afghanistan but this number of 21% literacy is bogus.

Ok genius. But I'm still not sure why you so readily discount the figure of 21% when it's quoted by UNICEF

Education

to the top  

Adult literacy rate,male (1990)

40

Adult literacy rate,female (1990)

12

Adult literacy rate,male (2000)

51

Adult literacy rate,female (2000)

21

http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/afghanistan_statistics.h tml 

The Taliban were in power in between 1996 - 2001 I believe.

The Taliban took power in 93 in Kandahar and they took Kabul in 96.  At that time NO proper census was ever done to even see how many Afghans there were in the country.  To THIS DAY, there has not even been a proper census of people because most Afghans are opposed to foreigners interacting with female members of their family, even if the foreigner is a female.

That number you gave is to be taken with a grain of salt.  You can not put education and Taliban in the same category.

 

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  Quote TeldeIndus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 15:38
You are right, UNICEF is wrong then
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 16:26

Most of these NGO's that work in Afghanistan are corrupt too.  They take aid money and stuff them in their pockets.  How many aid organizations do you know charge $1,000 a day?

Central Asia
     Apr 21, 2005

The party's over for Afghan NGOs
By Ramtanu Maitra

On April 4, Afghan President Hamid Karzai finally stepped out of outgoing US Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad's shadow and called some of the non-governmental organizations (NGOs) operating inside Afghanistan "corrupt".

After making known Article 8 of the new Afghan legislation that prevents NGOs from bidding for Afghan government-sponsored project contracts, Karzai called a meeting with ambassadors and representatives from the United Nations and donor countries based in Kabul.

Voicing his strong concern that some NGOs were responsible for squandering the precious resources that Afghanistan received in aid from the international community, Karzai told the gathering: "We have a responsibility towards the Afghan people, as well as the taxpayers in the donor countries, to stop NGOs that are corrupt, wasteful and unaccountable."

The Afghan president announced the establishment of a joint task force consisting of Minister of Economy Mohammad Amin Farhang, Minister of Rural Rehabilitation and Development Haneef Atmar and chief of staff of the President's Office Umer Daudzai to examine the issue and submit recommendations in no more than a month.

Bashar Dost's accusations
To many observers of Afghan developments, Karzai's denouement of the NGOs was overdue. Last November, Abdur Rasheed Saeed of the Institute for War and Peace (IWP) reported that Planning Minister Dr Ramazan Bashar Dost had told him of thousands (there are some 3,000 NGOs operating within Afghanistan, of which close to 350 are foreign-based) of NGOs that had failed to deliver effective assistance to the stressed Afghan people. In December, ostensibly under pressure from the NGOs and the countries they represent, Dost was forced to resign. It was evident that in asking Dost to step down, Karzai, whether he liked it or not, had to succumb to the external pressure.

Since becoming the planning minister in March 2004, Bashar Dost made it clear publicly that the NGOs were ineffective and had wasted money that should be being spent on the Afghan people. Pointing out that existing Afghan law "didn't clarify the responsibility of NGOs and the procedure for their control", Dost spearheaded a draft law that would regulate their operations. He noted that when an NGO received funds, either from a government or a non-governmental source, they are supposed to distribute most of those funds to the people of Afghanistan. "I have yet to see an NGO that has spent 80% of its money for the benefit of the Afghans and 20% for their own benefit," he said.

"International NGOs get big amounts of money from their own nations just by showing them sensitive pictures and videos of Afghan people, and there are even some individuals who give all their salaries to NGOs to spend it on charity here. But [the NGOs] spend all the money on themselves, and we are unable to find out how much money they originally received in charitable funds," Bashar Dost told the IWP.

Dost advocates elimination of "NGO-ism" - and not NGOs. He told the IWP that there are some so-called NGOs that operate for profit, like private companies. "I haven't seen any NGO at all which works efficiently yet," he added.

A predictable uproar
Dost's comments angered the NGOs and the United Nations. Paul Barker, country director of the aid agency CARE, declared: "These ill-founded, unsubstantiated and generalized attacks, from a government minister, are creating a climate in which the government is seen to be legitimizing attacks on NGOs." Of course Parker did not want to urge the Karzai government to investigate and substantiate Dost's charges, suggesting he is wholly aware that the planning minister was not whistling in the dark, and that evidence of a cobweb of corruption may come out if such investigations were carried out.

Instead, Barker, speaking for the NGO community, took the high road, accusing the planning minister of aiding attacks on the NGOs. Similarly, without making reference to the Afghan minister's charges, UN spokesman Manoel de Almeida e Silva told a news briefing in November: "Justification of violence in general, and against NGOs in particular, is unacceptable. The government has a paramount duty to uphold law and order and it cannot be involved in legitimizing or condoning physical aggression in any way."

Missing the real issue
The UN spokesman's statement is certainly true, in general. But both Dr Parker and the UN are dodging the real issue. The fact is that NGO activity in Afghanistan raises many legitimate questions. For instance, using their foreign and donor nations' links the tax-exempt NGOs have gotten access to government contracts that tax-paying local commercial companies should have won. The NGOs, using their political muscle and their well-oiled linkages to the International Security Assistance Forces, won some contracts by developing access to government officials, including ministers, some of whom were formerly their employees. Because of the higher pay they can offer, some of these NGOs have hired qualified individuals who would otherwise be available to serve the government.

One can get a whiff of the type of "NGO-Raj" that angered Dost in an article published in Outside magazine (December 2003): "When the world community of do-gooders arrives to rescue a nation from itself, the first sign is the blinding white traffic jam. White Land Rovers stack up thick at the airport; white Nissan Pathfinders block the streets at lunch; miraculous white-on-white Toyota Land Cruisers choke the traffic circles of the lucky target country. This caravan of chariots was triple-parked outside the Mustafa Hotel in downtown Kabul on a Saturday night. Late-model 4x4s filled the avenue and circled the block, churning up dust as the chauffeurs maneuvered for parking. I threaded my way through a cluster of acronyms: UN, UNESCO, UNDP, UNHCR, FAO, UNICEF, UNICA, UNAMA, UNOPS, UNEP, MSF, ACF, MAP, MACA, IRC, WFP, IOM, IMC. Even the hotel was painted white. I could hear Shakira [Colombian singer and sex symbol] playing faintly from above."

Similarly, a writer for the Chennai-based Indian daily The Hindu, posted in Kabul, observed: "People working in some of these NGOs lead a lavish lifestyle. A look at their offices and their houses, the way they are furnished, the air-conditioned cars they drive, all add to the resentment of the people, as it all comes out of the aid being pumped into the country."

In an article that appeared on March 26 in Der Spiegel, under the title "Afghanscam", Susanne Koelbl made a case, pointing out that in a country where the per capita income is just US$200, foreigners, or more appropriately the "$1,000 men" are jostling the streets of Kabul. Koelbl says the so-called $1,000 men were everywhere, hired by donor institutions like the World Bank or the Asian Development Bank. Recently, a list of salaries surfaced, causing a medium-sized political earthquake in the government. An employee of the British consulting firm Crown Agents, for example, received $207,000 for his 180-day placement in the Aid Coordination Office, plus expenses. Another submitted a bill for $242,000 for 241 days - 10 times as much as the Afghan minister responsible for running the ministry earns in a year.

The $1,000-a-day men
In addition, hundreds of consulting firms are competing for huge projects, and the number of active consultants in Afghanistan is estimated to be at least 3,000. "Suddenly there were more consultants than flies and dogs in this city," said an employee of the US Embassy who has worked in Kabul for two years. One German diplomat estimates that at least a quarter of US relief aid is spent on foreign experts alone, Susanne Koelbl wrote.

The article discusses one such consultant, William Strong, a 67-year-old Californian who recently landed a $30 million contract. Strong has a valid background making money in almost all of the world's crisis regions. He lives together with a dozen international co-workers in a $12,000-a-month villa in the northern part of Kabul. Working for a company called Emerging Markets Group, he has been given the task by the Afghan government of surveying the country's land and clarifying property ownership. "This is a huge market," a rapturous Strong said, before complaining that it's hard to find people who are "more interested in their job than money", Koelbl reported.

Koelbl's article also looks at another successful company, Bearing Point. With its headquarters in McLean, Virginia, the global consulting firm's Afghanistan budget alone is more than $100 million. Reports indicate the company's chief executive, Ed Elrahal, has succeeded in placing 70 of his company's consultants in the government. Elrahal's employees aren't allowed to talk to the press and in the few cases where they are, they can only do so under strict supervision. Nevertheless, one of the company's employees in the Finance Ministry told Koelbl why he is working here - anonymously, of course. In Kabul, he earns the same amount he would in far more dangerous Iraq - a daily rate plus a supplement of 50% for hardship and danger pay. But he refuses to disclose the amount - "It's a company secret," he said. But those with experience here know that the daily rate for the US Agency for International Development (USAID), which operates globally, is $840.

The lifestyle of the foreign NGOs is not all that draws the ire of Afghan locals. Objection has also been raised to the corruption associated with the forming of fake community organizations, delivering small credits to the rich or friends of the NGO staff, reporting fake community development schemes, sharing the funds allocated for such schemes with a few community members, conducting meaningless training just for the sake of training, and over-budgeting the same to the donors. What angers other Afghans is the exuberance of the NGOs in funding programs related to "gender and development", which the more religious types perceive as "anti-Islam."

There is also a deeper, political point. Bashar Dost is among those who point out that NGOs in Afghanistan have not always functioned the way they are now. When the Taliban were in power, most NGOs were truly involved in humanitarian activities. But now there exists a semi-functioning government that the international community - in other words, the United States - wants to strengthen.

Donors like USAID want NGOs to work hand-in-hand with the Afghan government and the US military, and to wear donor political support on their sleeves. They are reportedly being asked to subjugate their anti-poverty missions to broader, more complex political and sometimes military goals. And this raises serious issues that ought not to be swept under the rug.


 



Edited by Afghanan
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  Quote TeldeIndus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 03:24

Did you even bother ro read the article you posted at all??

It says in YOUR article that


"There is also a deeper, political point. Bashar Dost is among those who point out that NGOs in Afghanistan have not always functioned the way they are now. When the Taliban were in power, most NGOs were truly involved in humanitarian activities. But now there exists a semi-functioning government that the international community - in other words, the United States - wants to strengthen."

The $1,000 a day men are a recent phenomenon. 

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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 08:05
I find it hard to beleive female literacy went up during taliban rule, i thought they didnt believe in educating females full stop.

All they were good at was law and order and furthering pakistan interests.
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  Quote TeldeIndus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 08:58

Originally posted by Leonidas

I find it hard to beleive female literacy went up during taliban rule, i thought they didnt believe in educating females full stop.

All they were good at was law and order and furthering pakistan interests.

Difficult to know without having lived there. But I found this on the internet.

Women and the Taliban
"As victims of the Taliban, they wanted the world to help them, but as good Muslims they did not want to be used by Western media to defame Islam."
By Azizah Y. al-Hibri, The Philadelphia Inquirer, March 11, 2001

The group briefed me on the situation in Afghanistan. They said that there had been some improvement in the education of women, but that it was far from adequate.

http://www.islamfortoday.com/afghanistanwomen7.htm 

Dont know if there's archives you can search.

Perhaps the most important thing was the stability which made a better environment for education?

Anyway, I found only this statement by a New York representative of theirs from "Afghanistan lacks the resources to educate them"

"According to a 2000 survey by UNICEF, taken during Taliban rule, eight out of every twenty boys and nineteen out of twenty girls were unable to attend school, even though education officially has been free and compulsory since 1935."

suggests that girls (1 out of every 20) were attending schools.

http://www.nea.org/international/afghanistan.html 

It's all irrelevant anyway. Fingers crossed that Afghanistan has a brighter future.



Edited by TeldeIndus
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 22:08

TeldeIndus,

NGO's in Afghanistan were HEAVILY restricted under the Taliban.  Many groups were forced pack up and leave because the Taliban would threaten its workers for teaching women, or even treating women.  The NGO's doing any census at that time would have been completley biased and forced down to whatever the Taliban allowed them to see.   Theres no way ANY accurate statistics could be taken during the civil war.

For them to be in the country for actual reasons during the Civil war makes sense only because they werent getting billions of dollars of foreign money.  Add billions and you will find them jack their prices up and build new safehouses and army of landcruisers.  Every Afghan in Afghanistan knows the truth behind NGOs. 

Theres a reason why apartments in Kabul are even more expensive than those found in New York City.

The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak
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