Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Katarina Velika

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Mila View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4030
  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Katarina Velika
    Posted: 23-Dec-2005 at 22:58
katarina VELIKA
L A S T  Q U E E N  O F  B O S N I A



Katarina Kosaca was born in 1424 in Blagaj, Bosnia and Herzegovina. The ancient town, once the Roman city of Bona, was one of the wealthiest settlements east of Vienna and its inhabitants were the most nobel members of Bosnian aristocracy. Even today it remains famous as it boasts one of the most recognized Sufi shrines in the world.





Little Katarina was no exception to this well-to-do culture. Her father, Stjepan Vukic, had close ties with royal households throughout Europe and her mother, Jelena Balsic, was famous for her beauty and intelligence.

It was clear from the start that Katarina's life would be legendary and no one in the sleepy town of Blagaj (whose name means 'mild' in Bosnian) was at all surprised when the Prince of Bosnia, Stejpan Tomas Kotromanic, announced his intention of marrying her.

When her husband was killed during the Ottoman conquest of Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1463, Katarina fled to Jajce where the legend of her strength and defiance was born. The legend goes she managed to defend the capital of Bosnia and Herzegovina for so long that, when it finally fell, much of the Balkans was already on it's third generation of Ottoman occupation.

Although she was eventually exiled (most historians agree it was self-imposed) and died in Rome, her battle cry: This is Bosnia, and I am her Queen! can still be heard in plays, operas, and folk music in Bosnia and Herzegovina today.

EDIT: She was beatified for her role by the Roman Catholic church and although this means she should be called "The Blessed Katarina", she is usually called "Saint Katarina".

She was the last Queen of Bosnia and Herzegovina, one of only four in total. Her name, Katarina Velika, literally means "Catherine the Great" and although she's not as famous as her Russian counterpart, as Marko Vusovic said: "Put our little Katarina in that lesser Queen's place, and we'd all be sending our zakat to Moscow".

Vusovic described Katarina Velika as the ideal woman:



"Beautiful but intelligent, delicate but courageous, powerful but stubborn she was. Her physical and personal traits and the balance between them were an ideal still viewed with appreciation - and not a little lust and jealousy - by Bosnians of both sexes today."

EDIT: For more information about her, a-Kotromani%C4%87">click here.


Edited by Mila
[IMG]http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/9259/1xw2.jpg">
Back to Top
vulkan02 View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Termythinator

Joined: 27-Apr-2005
Location: U$A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1835
  Quote vulkan02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Dec-2005 at 12:31
Nice info there I didn't know Bosnia had a warrior queen as well.
The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao
Back to Top
ill_teknique View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 28-Jun-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 636
  Quote ill_teknique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Dec-2005 at 21:52
yeah we did  lol
Back to Top
Mila View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4030
  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2006 at 18:08



Edited by Mila
[IMG]http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/9259/1xw2.jpg">
Back to Top
Kulin Ban View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 23-Mar-2007
Location: France
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
  Quote Kulin Ban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2007 at 12:14
Hi all.
 
I'm very new in this forum so don't be too hard with me at the begining for my poor English.

Katarina's was buried in Rome in the Aracoeli church in front of the main altar. In her tombstone is an inscription in bosancica :

Libro%20Nouvo,%20G.B.%20Palatino,%201545,%20Rome,
tombstone%20inscription%20of%20Bosnian%20Queen%20Katarina

translated to an original version of latin wich was modificated later to:

D.O.M.
Catherine Reginae Bosnensi
Stephani Ducis San (c) ti Sabbae Sorori,
Et genere Helene et Domo Principis
Stephani natae, Tomae Regis Bosnae
Uxori. Quantum vixit annorum LIIII
Et odbormivit Romae Anno Domini
Et odbormivit Romae Anno Domini MCCCCLXXVIII
DIE XXV Octobris
Monumentum ipsius scriptis positum.



Back to Top
morticia View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Retired AE Editor

Joined: 09-Aug-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2077
  Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 14:33
Thank you, Kulin Ban, for your contribution and welcome to the women's forum at AE.    Do you know why she was buried in Rome? I know she was exiled in Rome, but she should have been buried in her native land.


Edited by morticia - 28-Mar-2007 at 14:45
"Morty

Trust in God: She will provide." -- Emmeline Pankhurst
Back to Top
Yugoslav View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 18-Mar-2007
Location: Yugoslavia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 769
  Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2007 at 18:47
I find her one of the most interesting characters.

A Croat descended from a Serbian dynasty.
"I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2007 at 19:45
Originally posted by Yugoslav

I find her one of the most interesting characters.

A Croat descended from a Serbian dynasty.
 
 A BOSNIAN
 
NOT CROAT
Back to Top
Reginmund View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke


Joined: 08-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1943
  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2007 at 19:52
What does that matter; she's hawt.
Back to Top
Yugoslav View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 18-Mar-2007
Location: Yugoslavia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 769
  Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2007 at 12:50
Originally posted by es_bih

Originally posted by Yugoslav

I find her one of the most interesting characters.

A Croat descended from a Serbian dynasty.
 
 A BOSNIAN
 
NOT CROAT


Hey, you're getting angry just because of a word I said again. Cry

When I was in Herzegovina and Dalmatia, I just heard the people celebrate her for being the most famous Herzeg-Bosnian Croat and cherished her as a Croatian national hero.

They mostly point out that she converted from Serbian Orthodoxy to Catholicism and that she left Bosnia and all possessions to the Roman Catholic Church (although her will was not realized).

I thought she was Croat; I could've been wrong. If I am, enlighten me; do not get angry at me.
"I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
Back to Top
Yugoslav View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 18-Mar-2007
Location: Yugoslavia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 769
  Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2007 at 18:17
Originally posted by vulkan02

Nice info there I didn't know Bosnia had a warrior queen as well.


Helen Gruba was much more important. She was a real queen, and she belonged to the ruling family; Catherine was just a wife of a King.
"I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2007 at 22:43
Originally posted by Yugoslav

Originally posted by es_bih

Originally posted by Yugoslav

I find her one of the most interesting characters.

A Croat descended from a Serbian dynasty.
 
 A BOSNIAN
 
NOT CROAT


Hey, you're getting angry just because of a word I said again. Cry

When I was in Herzegovina and Dalmatia, I just heard the people celebrate her for being the most famous Herzeg-Bosnian Croat and cherished her as a Croatian national hero.

They mostly point out that she converted from Serbian Orthodoxy to Catholicism and that she left Bosnia and all possessions to the Roman Catholic Church (although her will was not realized).

I thought she was Croat; I could've been wrong. If I am, enlighten me; do not get angry at me.
 
She is a national hero of Bosnia. Just because someone is Catholic that does not automatically make them Croat. I could convert, I would not be Croat, I could convert to Orthodx Christianity that would not make a Serb either. The notion of a rigid Serb and Croat identity had been shaped in the late 19th century not in the 15th century. Religion and nationality or ethnicity are not synonomous. The Hugenots were not Catholic, that does not mean they were not French....
 
 
She was a Queen of Bosnia, the Bosnian state, and its people existed before the Ottoman conquest. A Bosnian identity had been formed way before the Ottoman conquest.
Back to Top
Aelfgifu View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 25-Jun-2006
Location: Netherlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3387
  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2007 at 03:55
Originally posted by Yugoslav

Originally posted by vulkan02

Nice info there I didn't know Bosnia had a warrior queen as well.


Helen Gruba was much more important. She was a real queen, and she belonged to the ruling family; Catherine was just a wife of a King.
 
Well, correct me if I'm wrong... But being the wife of a king kind of makes a queen no? Wink

Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
Back to Top
Yugoslav View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 18-Mar-2007
Location: Yugoslavia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 769
  Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2007 at 14:41
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

Originally posted by Yugoslav

Originally posted by vulkan02

Nice info there I didn't know Bosnia had a warrior queen as well.


Helen Gruba was much more important. She was a real queen, and she belonged to the ruling family; Catherine was just a wife of a King.
 
Well, correct me if I'm wrong... But being the wife of a king kind of makes a queen no? Wink


No, there is a difference between queens consorts.

Hellen Gruba was a ruler, a monarch, who did not have large influences over Kings and noblemen, but was one herself.

There's a huge difference o'er there.
"I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
Back to Top
Yugoslav View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 18-Mar-2007
Location: Yugoslavia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 769
  Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2007 at 21:12
Originally posted by es_bih

Originally posted by Yugoslav

Originally posted by es_bih

Originally posted by Yugoslav

I find her one of the most interesting characters.

A Croat descended from a Serbian dynasty.
 
 A BOSNIAN
 
NOT CROAT


Hey, you're getting angry just because of a word I said again. Cry

When I was in Herzegovina and Dalmatia, I just heard the people celebrate her for being the most famous Herzeg-Bosnian Croat and cherished her as a Croatian national hero.

They mostly point out that she converted from Serbian Orthodoxy to Catholicism and that she left Bosnia and all possessions to the Roman Catholic Church (although her will was not realized).

I thought she was Croat; I could've been wrong. If I am, enlighten me; do not get angry at me.
 
She is a national hero of Bosnia. Just because someone is Catholic that does not automatically make them Croat. I could convert, I would not be Croat, I could convert to Orthodx Christianity that would not make a Serb either. The notion of a rigid Serb and Croat identity had been shaped in the late 19th century not in the 15th century. Religion and nationality or ethnicity are not synonomous. The Hugenots were not Catholic, that does not mean they were not French....
 
 
She was a Queen of Bosnia, the Bosnian state, and its people existed before the Ottoman conquest. A Bosnian identity had been formed way before the Ottoman conquest.


Actually today, I think ya would. :) Emir Kusturica and Fahreta Jahic converted to Orthodoxy just because of it.

I know, but this has nothing to do (what I said) with the country which's King she became. For example, Baness Elizabeth Nemanjic of Bosnia, wife of Stephen I Kotroman, was a Serb (though if I recall she wasn't even Orthodox, I think she was Catholic), because she comes from Serbia and is of the Nemanyiden.

Such is it that I consider Catharine not Bosnian because she's not from Bosnia; but from the Hlm, and remember Herzegovina is another world when compared to Bosnia.

I just remember that her family was a Serbian dynasty, traditionally Serbian Orthodox; but the Croatian friends I've been talking to say that her identity is not even close to Serbian, because she was permanently and deeply tied to the Roman Catholic Church, to which it allegedly gave Bosnia in heritage to succeed.

Tvrtko's wife and Queen of Bosnia wasn't "Bosnian", but "Bulgarian"... do you get me?

I don't think that Orthodox=Serb, but the best designation for the most of the time was Serbian Orthodox=Serb. Keep on mind that there were quite a lot of Orthodoxes in Bosnia (even the Kotromanics were originally Orthodox), but "Orthodox Serbian" was only a small minor population in eastern Bosnia, and perhaps (if we count the western-style Greek Catholic) in northern Bosnia throughout the Medieval Ages.

Keep also in mind that "Serb" and "Croat" was much more political and national; thus a Serb became Croat in only 50 years etc.. such were frequent cases. Remember "such people" like Ferdo Sisic, who is originally from a Serb Orthodox clan, remember how Ivo Andric died, remember what Svetozar Borojevic von Bojna said, remember what Rizvanbegovic or Mesa Selimovic said...

In this end this all proves that Serbs (and Montenegrins too, of course), Croats, Bosniaks and all other divisions all just came from one single people, which became solely divided upon religion (Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Islam). Balkanalia tragedy! Cry
"I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2007 at 12:23
I'm not disputing their similar origins, I am dipsuting that all of them came from Serbs, or all of them Came from Bosnians or all of them came from Croats, all the three mentinoed came from similar ancestors who were neither Croat Serb or Bosnian.
Back to Top
Yugoslav View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 18-Mar-2007
Location: Yugoslavia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 769
  Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2007 at 13:32
Originally posted by es_bih

I'm not disputing their similar origins, I am dipsuting that all of them came from Serbs, or all of them Came from Bosnians or all of them came from Croats, all the three mentinoed came from similar ancestors who were neither Croat Serb or Bosnian.


Sorry, what are you talking about?
"I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2007 at 15:39
Originally posted by Yugoslav

Originally posted by es_bih

I'm not disputing their similar origins, I am dipsuting that all of them came from Serbs, or all of them Came from Bosnians or all of them came from Croats, all the three mentinoed came from similar ancestors who were neither Croat Serb or Bosnian.


Sorry, what are you talking about?
 
The common misconception that a lot of nationalists purpogate, for example, everything in ex-Yu is Serbian. The theory that the Croats, Bosnians, all were originally Serbian. Etc.
 
The fact is that the original peoples of the various republics are related, but were neither Serb, Croat, Bosnian, but in fact Serbs, Bosnians, Croats evolved out of those people, therefore, none of the three people have a root in one another, but have a common root that is neither Serbian, Bosnian, or Croat. The common root is the amalgalm of various peoples living in the Balkans around the 8th century; ie. the Romanized Illyrians, the various Slavic groups moving in, etc....
 
 
Back to Top
Yugoslav View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 18-Mar-2007
Location: Yugoslavia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 769
  Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2007 at 18:06
Oh.... I thought you were saying something about Catherine. Big%20smile
"I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
Back to Top
violentjack View Drop Down
Earl
Earl
Avatar

Joined: 10-May-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 269
  Quote violentjack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2007 at 16:17
 Katarina wasnt a queen, nor was she effective ruled.She was just a wife, of unpopular king Stjepan Tomas.

Prior to Stjepan Tomas rise to power, all Bosnian rulers were either Boghumils and Bosniaks, certainly grave of Stjepan Ostoja , Matej Ninoslav, who Mandic tried to portray as a Catholic, with lot of flaws, and especially Kulin Ban, who had to accept Papal sovereignity in public.The famous Bilinoe declaration of 1203, where he had to accept Roman missionary movements, that would come in due time, by laws of Innocent III

In 1244, when whole Europe was Catholic and Christian, first Papal order(Dominicans came to Bosnia.Since, at that time, ruler was Matej Ninoslav, who was catholic, then returned to boghumils, then became orthodox, he suited his game plan, as he came into power and stayed in power.Regardless if he was playing Byzantines, Hungarians or even Rome

By 1293, some say 1299, Jiricek suggest 1294, when Subic Brothers took throne of Bosnia or Rex Bosnae,  catholic Subics or Subics of Bribinje, piece of land that Popes gave them in 1220 period, when they later became another family in middle ages Zrinjski, but thats just off topic

From 1290 untill 1398 with Exception of King Ostoja, who was a lose catholic, or boghumil 1398-1404, 1404-1412, all rulers were CATHOLIC.Though all expecpted the fact, that boghumils was strong in Bosnia and didnt persecute Bosnia

In period 1440-1463 last 23 years of Bosnia as a state

You had Turkish taking of Pavlovici Kraji(Lands of Ivanis Pavloc, vicelord of Podrinje and Vrhbosna Sarajevo.By 1455, Turks, already controlled Sarajevo, Foca, and lot of eastern towns.In the middle, you had a nobles, that were rebelling against rule of Stjepan Tomas, and his predecesors.

Stjepan Vukcic Kosaca in 1446 took his land Humska and proclaimed it autonomous from Bosnia by name Hercegovina(Land of Duke)Hercog -Dukes

Stjepan Tomas was incometent ruler.Last few years, he spend his money, trying to bad-mouth nobles that cemented Bosnian faith, as they didnt recognize Bosniak king(Radosalici, Kopcici, Kacici, Kosace, Sankovici

Even Altomanovici from Soli rebeled.Though Bosnia was a state,, this was loose confederation of powerfull nobles of the day.Some converted to Islam later, but thats another story.

Katarina and Stjepan tried to convert forcefully Local Bosniaks.Their death was not done as some claim by Mehmed Fatih conquered, by Radoslav Angelili Pribinic, who was a son of a Krusevac vicelord Ratomir.Stjepan ran away to Kljuc and hid in womans clothers.Its shame and ironny, what was once proud Bosnian kingdom:Stjepan Kotromanic, Tvrtko, Kulin Ban, even drunk Ostoja 1398-1404, 1404-1412, who by the way sold all of Bosnian coast, becase he owed money to Dubrovacka republika

I certainly respect Katarina even less, because as she said.If my children convert to Islam, i will leave all my money to Rome.

Im more into good Tvrtko, or KulinLOL
Bosnjaci,probudite se ili nestanite
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.