Bush Authorized Domestic Spying

I agree with you Hugo. If this is allowed to stand it effectively gives the President the right to change the Constitution as he sees fit without Congressional involvement.

Nixon tried this in the early seventies and I think was met with the appropriate response.

It is a little late to fear Constitutional change. Who would think that live sex acts in Oregon was covered under free speech? The Constitution is being and has been manipulated (or should I say mutilated) beyond recognition. Funny it seems to matter now that President Bush is on the stands!

-The government would need restraint if they did something wrong. This is war time, and all the rules change. The war we fight now is unlike that of any wars past, once again, combatting terrorism requires quick response. If the government were truly abusing these powers as claimed, then why is this news surfacing now? This is my main point. The whole report is based on a political agenda.

-We can agree to disagree. Nothing wrong with a little debate, and please take no offence to my post. The same situation can easily be interpreted very differently according to the individual.

An interpretation (by the Administration's attorney general) of the provisions of an act passed in the wake of 9-11 should not be sufficient for this degree of surveillance.  I agree with previous comment that if the threat is present, address the government's position in person to an appropriate judge to get the enabling warrants.

Warrants expire, so review in light of current events and circumstances can be undertaken.  While I realize that it was seen as important to move quickly, the strong opinion of the President on a matter of national security would have resulted in warrants....quickly.  That would have been preferable to an Executive Order.

To Hugo:

-Thank you for the response, and I see where you are coming from. Ideology can sometimes create blind faith, but this is not the case with me. As mentioned, I try to not be an ideological person, but a problem solver. The problem is terrorism, the solution, capturing insurgents and preventing future attacks. Being said, I am still not satisfied with the timing of the story. To me, it is obvious that this is another "scam" where the media is simply trying to overshadow any progress we are making in the war. Now, is this any suprise? How many times has this happened before? I do not believe that powers have been abused, as the detection program is very selective. If anything, the release of this story threatens our security. My point is this: I for one am tired of receiving inflated news aimed to intentionally bash the President. If I felt that any civil liberties were abused, I would certainly not defend the decisions made. 

-You are right on the money with the post, and I will admit, it does make you think. The real issue is how much weight should we give this story? As much as it bothers me, I barely know what news to believe anymore. 

-For your concerns......

-First, when before has the NYT respected the Presidents wishes? Is it possible that there were alternate motives for the timing of this release?

-Second, the general public does not know if their was an emergency or not. Is it fair to say that terrorist conspire against the US everyday? I believe that this is a very fair statement. Now, as mentioned, why do these actions affect your "average Joe?" They do not. We already have wire-tapping provisions which are exercised in our country on a daily basis. Now, does the innocent civilian need to fear for their safety of privacy because of these wire-tappings? I for one have never been hasseled. I do not know you, but you seem to be an intelligent guy, and I doubt you have been hasseled either. Who does the wire-tapping affect? Those guilty of crime and/or criminal conspiracy!  

-Third, "And we all know that power will be abused, once granted, if it is not bound. Correct?"

-Exactly right, but can we say that power has been abused. Again, as of now, these are allegations. If I find out that the government is conducting hours of surveillance on "chit chat," then I will be very angry. I do not believe anything like this has happened, because if so, their are plenty of people who hate the President so deeply they would use this as grounds for impeachment. I think nothing will come out of the hearing, though I may be wrong.

-Finally, Comparing Bush with a dictator. I will be honest, when I think of a dictator, our President DOES NOT come to mind. I fully understand your concerns, but I think this thing is being blown out of proportion. I could be wrong on this issue, but we will have to wait and see. In the United States, the people would not stand for a dictatorship. Their has never been one here before, I doubt their ever will. Now, times of war draw strong emotional feelings, this is nothing new. People fear for their safety, privacy and way of life. These are justified concerns, but it is important to see past the "smoke screen" of the "political football" constantly taking place. I for one enjoy my life. I am not a rich man, but live a comfortable life.....and would not let that be taken away. I enjoy going to dinner and a movie with my girl or throwing the pigskin around with my buddies. Those who hate American values and vow death and destruction to Americans are the ones who compromise our lifestyles, therefore the ones I am concerned about. If in fact this turns out to be a story of any REAL SIGNIFICANCE, then I will retract all of my previous statements. Until then, I see it as more "mud" to sling at the President.

-Thanks for the response, and I guess we will just have to wait and see how this one plays out. You have a great argument, and if these allegations turn out to be true, then I will quickly change my opinion. As of now though, I am not looking too deep into this. The purpose of my argument is NOT to defend the President, but rather to explain the context of the situation. Thanks again for an alternate view, and we will learn the truth soon enough I hope. I am a private investigator, and understand the laws relating to wire-tapping. They are almost solely conducted by FBI or other law enforcement. Being said, I feel as though Bush should be allowed to conduct wiretapping if our safety is compromised. I can not say if our safety is in jeopardy, but if it is, then I for one want to ensure the protection of our people at any cost. Again, thanks for the debate. We have the right to question the Presidents actions, but should not jump to conclusions. The truth will surface at the hearing, and until then, it is unfair to claim these allegations as TRUTH. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you and your loved ones. Thanks-

Hugo:

-I am not trying to dismiss any of Cezars claims, but let's be serious here. I understand what happened in Romania, as well as many other places in the world, but Romania was never even similar to the USA. Now, PETA and the ACLU.......

-PETA: An organization known for extreme activism and discontent with the government. Several sources document them as being "sympathetic" with terrorist, and that is the least that we know. I am not saying all members of PETA are "bad" per say, but their is no shortage of fanatics amongst the organization.

-ACLU: The American Criminals Liberty Union........ Now, this organization has supported child molestors ex: NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association), convicted killers ex: ("Tookie" Williams), and generally everyone against American traditionalism. Once again, they are portrayed as "looking out for the little guy", but in reality, support criminals and anybody looking to "stick it to" conservative America. The FBI is right on this one, as I for one do not trust the ACLU as far as I could throw them.

-Again, I am not dismissing the seriousness of these allegations, but I am not going to look too deeply into them either. Certain interest groups have been looking for grounds to impeach the President  or attack his administration since the beginning of his second term. The WMD investigation did not work...... The Hurricane Katrina scandal did not work........ The CIA leak did not work......etc... This is only the next thing in line.

-Now, if I felt this was a realistic concern, I would have a different take on the matter. It is not. As I expected, the media tries desperately to create the illusion that THE GOVERNMENT IS SPYING ON YOU!!!!! Not true. If the FBI conducted surveillance on organizations like PETA and the ACLU, I am certain that the surveillance was justified. The United States is not a country that will magically enter a stage of secret police and full government control....will NOT happen.

On the personal campaign.......

-If I felt this was a real concern, I would love to organize a letter with you. But, as you can see, I would like to wait and see what "comes out in the wash" in this thing. It is not about politics or ideology, but common sense. This will not even reach the magnitude of the nonsense created by the "Red Scare,"not even close. Now, I am not trying to discredit any of your comments(or anybody else), but I think this is just the next event in the long series of personal hatred towards President Bush. 

-My real concern.......

-My real concern is terrorism and terrorist sympathy and support. If anything, I want to find out who leaked the story....... Maybe they are the ones that need to answer some questions.

-Thanks for the reply, and I am sorry we can not see eye to eye on the matter. Events are open to personal interpretation, and we have perceived them very differently. I mean no offence to anyone on the board, but rather offer an alternate opinion. Now when the facts come forth, their may be something to worry about.....But then again, their may not. If more comes out of this than I predict, I will gladly retract my statements and reform my opinions..... Until then, I will stick with my current stance. Thanks Again, and maybe next time we can be on the same page!