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’Short" History of Jewish persecution

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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: ’Short" History of Jewish persecution
    Posted: 17-Dec-2005 at 04:36
Came across this, a "short" history of the persecution of the Jewish people.
Surely one of the most depressing accounts of historical events, to be found anywhere.
Why it doesn't excuse anything, it explains a lot about the desperate attempts of the Israeli people to preserve themselves and their nation.

It starts with a few poignant quotes:


"Nazi anti-Judaism was the work of godless, anti-Christian criminals. But it would not have been possible without the almost two thousand years' pre-history of 'Christian' anti-Judaism..." Hans Kng

"The Jews are a nervous people. Nineteen centuries of Christian love have taken a toll." Benjamin Disraeli

"Only in our remembrance and open discussion is there a chance, a hope, that another Holocaust will never happen." Louis Weber, publisher of "The Holocaust Chronicle"


Here is the account:


Short History of Jewish Persecution
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2005 at 07:44

I disagree the Pagan Romans were in anyway prejudiced against Jews any more than they were prejudiced against any other barbarian. They simply pragmatically efficienctly and brutally crushed a rebellious people no worse than dozens of others.

 



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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2005 at 09:53

Jews don't exactly have an untainted history as angels either and since they want to take it back 2000 years, I will take it back 1600 to also remember how they so cold bloodedly massacred tens of thousands of Christians when the Sassanids gave them a free reign in Jerusalem in 614AD.  Christian accounts report that Jews would buy captive Christians from the Persians just for the opportunity to kill them.

Tens of thousands might not sound like much, but when compred to the general population of the world at the time then it was huge.

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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2005 at 11:55
Hahaha - reminds me of Ivo Andric's story about the arrival of the Austro-Hungarian Empire here.

"Never before, on such a beautiful summer's day, had the streets been so empty. Never before, on such a lovely afternoon, had every window been shuttered. Some tried to go about their day normally locked up inside their homes but for everyone there was fear. The Austrians marching on the city feared an ambush, the Ottomans marching out feared an attack from the rear, the Bosniaks feared their new Christian overlords, the Christians feared a backlash from the Bosniaks, and the Jews feared everyone and everything for, especially at times of uncertainty, everyone is always stronger and more powerful than they are."

Sad but true.


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  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2005 at 09:58

The Dreyfuss Affair in France was a miletsone of anti-semitism in the modern history.

Also to my knowledge,the first anti-semitic league was founded in Paris,FRANCE in 1889.?

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  Quote oTToMAn_TurK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2005 at 09:00

1492 : Jews were given the choice of being baptized as Christians or be banished from Spain. 300,000 left Spain penniless. Many migrated to Turkey, where they found tolerance among the Muslims.

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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2005 at 09:32
Originally posted by Zagros

Jews don't exactly have an untainted history as angels either and since they want to take it back 2000 years, I will take it back 1600 to also remember how they so cold bloodedly massacred tens of thousands of Christians when the Sassanids gave them a free reign in Jerusalem in 614AD.  Christian accounts report that Jews would buy captive Christians from the Persians just for the opportunity to kill them.

Tens of thousands might not sound like much, but when compred to the general population of the world at the time then it was huge.

That is true. On the site quoted, they are talking about the rebellion of 113, where "tens of thousands of Romans and Jews are killed". What they neglect to say is that the Jews started it by massacring thousands of Romans in Cyrenaica. This has contributed much to the Romans' severe treatment of the Jews.

That being said, the Jews have been the victim for most of the past two thousand years. With the exception of the 1st and 2nd century AD, and the last 60 years, the jews were typically persecuted and not the persecutors.

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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2005 at 11:29
Originally posted by Zagros

Jews don't exactly have an untainted history as angels either and since they want to take it back 2000 years, I will take it back 1600 to also remember how they so cold bloodedly massacred tens of thousands of Christians when the Sassanids gave them a free reign in Jerusalem in 614AD. Christian accounts report that Jews would buy captive Christians from the Persians just for the opportunity to kill them.


Tens of thousands might not sound like much, but when compred to the general population of the world at the time then it was huge.



Of course, nobody argues that the Jewish people are angels, with the possible exception of Gabriel, Michael, Uriel, Sariel, etc., however, in light of two millenia of persecution, ten thousand are a mere drop in the ocean, without excusing anything.
It would be interesting to research, if there has ever been a serious Jewish resistance against all the pogroms, other than during the Nazi-Holocaust, as in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising in 1943.(More Information)

Does anybody know of any instances of armed Jewish resistance against persecutions, especially during the Middle Ages?
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  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2005 at 14:55

After jewish migration from Egypt to palastine(giant land) they established their kingdom of Israel in 1030 B.C. under Saul as a king.

then the kingdom flourished under David and his son Solomon(PBUT) the kingdom splited into tow part after Solomon death the northern part called Israel the southern calle Judah.

the Begining of jews suffer:-

the last kings of Israel paid tribute to Assyrians,the Assyrians  destroyed the kingdom after the seige of Samaria 722-725 B.C,making Judah the sole remaining Hebrew kingdom.

The ten tribes were exiled to other parts of the Assyrian Empire and never heard from again in recorded history. A small group of people fled south to take refuge in Judah.

Kingdom of Judah lasted until 586 B.C,Jerusalem sacked twice the first in 597 B.C by Nebuchadrezzar after short rebelled king Jehoiachin took as prisonor with 1000 jews.

the second was the end of kingdom of Judah and the destruction of the Temple of Solomon,Daniel the prophet captured with 40000 jews.

In Roman era the First Jewish-Roamn war begun ,ended with the fall and destruction of Jerusalem.

In 115 the jews revolted in mesopotamia the revolt called kitos war ended with final Roman victory under emperor Trajan.

Bar Kokhbas revolt (132-135 CE) against the Roman Empire, also known as The Second Jewish-Roman War.
was a second major rebellion by the Jews of Iudaea,Emperor Hadrian visited the ruins of Jerusalem. At first sympathetic towards the Jews, Hadrian promised to rebuild the city, but the Jews felt betrayed when they found out that his intentions were to rebuild the Jewish holiest city as a pagan metropolis, and a new pagan temple on the ruins of the Second Temple was to be dedicated to Jupiter.

After that the revolt begun and another dispora too.

 Another massacre in the first Crusade,France ,Germany,Poland and the Spanish Inquisition.

and Adolf hitler's final solution which led to the Holocaust 1939-1945.

after all these wars,massacres,disporas,destruction and exiles do you think the jew as race still exist?

I don't think so and don't get me wrong, I think the jewish is a religion now like Islam or Christian have no limit for a race or special people.

 As we see there are black jew,white,yellow and other then how we can say the jew is a race not a religion.

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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2005 at 18:36
Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

after all these wars,massacres,disporas,destruction and exiles do you think the jew as race still exist?


I don't think so and don't get me wrong, I think the jewish is a religion now like Islam or Christian have no limit for a race or special people.


As we see there are black jew,white,yellow and other then how we can say the jew is a race not a religion.



You have a point here.
Although firstly the Jewish as a people under permanent pressure possibly remained more ethnically homogenous than can be expected, and secondly especially the restrictive Christian laws on inter-marriage prohibited a wider assimilation, to ethnically identify 20th century Jewish people with the ones that were expelled from Palestine 2000 years ago, must be impossible.
This, however, makes past and contemporary anti-semitism even more absurd and criminal, especially the "race theories" of Nazi-Germany.
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Dec-2005 at 18:30

One of the most important factors in examining the Jewish perscution is the fact that their victimization has been so well recorded. This is fair enough, they have been in a unique position to be victimized through most of their history thanks to diaspora and the prejudice of their overlords. But sometimes historians also over-emphasise the suffering of the Jews to the detriment of other groups. In WWII the Jews lost one of the highest percentages of their populations, this is true.

But you ask many people what they know of the Holocaust and they will say "Hitler wiping out the Jews". Was is really that simple? I disagree with such a commonly held view. The Jewish population is estimated variously to have sustained 4-6 million dead. But how is it fair to associate the Holocaust purely with the Jews when TENS OF MILLIONS of people across Eastern Europe were wiped out in cold blood because they also fit the Nazi criteria of being subhuman? The USSR is supposed to have lost at least 15 million of its people in non-combat circumstances at the hands of the Axis, that is still excluding those who died due to things like disease and famine. That is still excluding the Slavs from other nations across Eastern Europe who were killed. In the end we have a figure of tens of millions of people who were slaughtered for being Slavs, yet the Holocaust was "a Jewish thing" in the minds of most people. Certainly give the Jews proper historical account of their sufferings, but I dislike when they hijack a concept like the Holocaust so that the tens of millions of other ethnicities who suffered alongside them are simply forgotten.

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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2005 at 12:27
Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

Another massacre in the first Crusade,France ,Germany,Poland and the Spanish Inquisition.

Could you enlight me about jewish massacre in Poland? I dont remember any massacres of jews in Poland between crusades and spanish inquisition

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2005 at 13:23
Originally posted by Constantine XI

One of the most important factors in examining the Jewish perscution is the fact that their victimization has been so well recorded. This is fair enough, they have been in a unique position to be victimized through most of their history thanks to diaspora and the prejudice of their overlords. But sometimes historians also over-emphasise the suffering of the Jews to the detriment of other groups. In WWII the Jews lost one of the highest percentages of their populations, this is true.

But you ask many people what they know of the Holocaust and they will say "Hitler wiping out the Jews". Was is really that simple? I disagree with such a commonly held view. The Jewish population is estimated variously to have sustained 4-6 million dead. But how is it fair to associate the Holocaust purely with the Jews when TENS OF MILLIONS of people across Eastern Europe were wiped out in cold blood because they also fit the Nazi criteria of being subhuman? The USSR is supposed to have lost at least 15 million of its people in non-combat circumstances at the hands of the Axis, that is still excluding those who died due to things like disease and famine. That is still excluding the Slavs from other nations across Eastern Europe who were killed. In the end we have a figure of tens of millions of people who were slaughtered for being Slavs, yet the Holocaust was "a Jewish thing" in the minds of most people. Certainly give the Jews proper historical account of their sufferings, but I dislike when they hijack a concept like the Holocaust so that the tens of millions of other ethnicities who suffered alongside them are simply forgotten.

You have captured my sentiments exactly. The suffering of teh Czechs Poles, Serbs, Russians, French, Italians, Greeks and indeed Germans in non-combat situations at the hands of the Nazis and Communists cannot be forgotten.



Edited by Zagros
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  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2005 at 14:56

dear Mosquito,

I meant the the the Bohdan Chmielnicki uprising against Poland in Ukraine in 1648.

Ukraine in that time was a part of Poland,and the Treaty of Pereyaslavl which eventually led to the annexation of Ukraine by the Russian Empire in 1654 A.D

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  Quote ill_teknique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2005 at 15:30
Originally posted by Paul

I disagree the Pagan Romans were in anyway prejudiced against Jews any more than they were prejudiced against any other barbarian. They simply pragmatically efficienctly and brutally crushed a rebellious people no worse than dozens of others.

 



they razed carthage to the ground and they werent jewish either.  i wouldnt say the romans were anti semetic as the christian kingdoms in later post roman europe.
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  Quote ill_teknique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2005 at 15:33
Originally posted by Mila

Hahaha - reminds me of Ivo Andric's story about the arrival of the Austro-Hungarian Empire here.

"Never before, on such a beautiful summer's day, had the streets been so empty. Never before, on such a lovely afternoon, had every window been shuttered. Some tried to go about their day normally locked up inside their homes but for everyone there was fear. The Austrians marching on the city feared an ambush, the Ottomans marching out feared an attack from the rear, the Bosniaks feared their new Christian overlords, the Christians feared a backlash from the Bosniaks, and the Jews feared everyone and everything for, especially at times of uncertainty, everyone is always stronger and more powerful than they are."

Sad but true.


and because of the aftermath of the austro hungarians we had a huge exodus of bosnians to anatolia - where there are up to four million deascandants of bosnians living.
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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2005 at 18:13
Originally posted by Zagros

You have captured my sentiments exactly. The suffering of teh Czechs Poles, Serbs, Russians, French, Italians, Greeksand indeed Germans in non-combat situations at the hands of the Nazis and Communists cannot be forgotten.



What one should forget also, that the murdered Jewish people were firstly Poles, Czechs, Dutch, Greeks, Germans etc., and only secondly belonged to the Jewish religion.
Apart from that, it is certainly not false, that of all the ethnic and social minorities that suffered from Nazi-Germany, the murder of six million Jewish people gets a bit of an over-exposure, and the killing of Roma or Homosexuals, for example, sometimes is put into the background. The latter two groups have not got their own state, that could more efficiently remember the world about the crimes committed against its people.

At least in Germany,and I'm pretty sure in other states as well, efforts have been made to remember every group of victims of the Holocaust, including the non-Jewish civilian population of all formerly occupied countries.
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  Quote ill_teknique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2005 at 18:17
Originally posted by oTToMAn_TurK

1492 : Jews were given the choice of being baptized as Christians or be banished from Spain. 300,000 left Spain penniless. Many migrated to Turkey, where they found tolerance among the Muslims.



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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2005 at 18:17
Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

dear Mosquito,

I meant the the the Bohdan Chmielnicki uprising against Poland in Ukraine in 1648.

Ukraine in that time was a part of Poland,and the Treaty of Pereyaslavl which eventually led to the annexation of Ukraine by the Russian Empire in 1654 A.D

Now i agree. First it sounded like the Poles were massacring the Jews. It must be said that Poles were evacuating Jews from Ukraine, who were being killed by the Cossacks.

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2005 at 18:51
Originally posted by Komnenos

Originally posted by Zagros

You have captured my sentiments exactly. The suffering of teh Czechs Poles, Serbs, Russians, French, Italians, Greeks and indeed Germans in non-combat situations at the hands of the Nazis and Communists cannot be forgotten.



What one should forget also, that the murdered Jewish people were firstly Poles, Czechs, Dutch, Greeks, Germans etc., and only secondly belonged to the Jewish religion.
Apart from that, it is certainly not false, that of all the ethnic and social minorities that suffered from Nazi-Germany, the murder of six million Jewish people gets a bit of an over-exposure, and the killing of Roma or Homosexuals, for example, sometimes is put into the background. The latter two groups have not got their own state, that could more efficiently remember the world about the crimes committed against its people.

At least in Germany,and I'm pretty sure in other states as well, efforts have been made to remember every group of victims of the Holocaust, including the non-Jewish civilian population of all formerly occupied countries.

I have been to Ludice, a Czech village, where the Nazis massacred the entire male population (I think it was) because two soldiers had been killed by resistance fighters.  There were countless such instances throughout Eastern and Souther Europe where Jews were not involved.  Slavs were untermenchen and Greeks weren't treated much better.

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